T-72 Tank Sim to be published by Battlefront

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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <ZERRd.126$nQ5.1055@eagle.america.net>, jp@hotmail.com
says...

> Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
> some T-90's instead ? <g>

Why bother with a T-90, when the T-72 has been unconditionally
triumphant over all comers since the Nixon Administration?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c81c359f523c32b98a1b5@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <ZERRd.126$nQ5.1055@eagle.america.net>, jp@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
> > some T-90's instead ? <g>
>
> Why bother with a T-90, when the T-72 has been unconditionally
> triumphant over all comers since the Nixon Administration?
>
> --
> Giftzwerg
> ***
> "I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
> and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
> We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'
>
> The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
> mean, *we*?'
>
> It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
> allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
> amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
> we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
> blah.
>
> If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
> would never have taken place."
> - Jay Nordlinger



Hehe.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:23:20 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
>> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
>> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
>> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
>> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
>
> Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
>some T-90's instead ? <g>

Indeed....

"Tovarich Major Pavlov, Corporal Ivanov speaking. I just signed
to Russian volunteer company, I go to fight on the side of our Serb
Orthodox brothers in the Balkans. Please issue me one T-90, little
used, to drive down there. And please don't suspend my army pay while
I'm away fighting vs. vicious 'Croat catholics'".

Fun 😱)

O.
 
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"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:cktf11174kgvla4v2g3qh47748lqa6do5g@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:23:20 -0600, "JP" <jp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> See what I am talking about? This may be a good game after all,
> >> but as far as the setup, and "background story" goes, it's laughable
> >> fantasy of Russian, no make that Soviet developers, living in their
> >> skewed reality with "orthodox brothers" and "catholic Croats",
> >> unbeatable T-72s, remains of Soviet military power and whatnot...
> >
> > Yep. Besides, if you're one of the "Russian volunteers", why not grab
> >some T-90's instead ? <g>
>
> Indeed....
>
> "Tovarich Major Pavlov, Corporal Ivanov speaking. I just signed
> to Russian volunteer company, I go to fight on the side of our Serb
> Orthodox brothers in the Balkans. Please issue me one T-90, little
> used, to drive down there. And please don't suspend my army pay while
> I'm away fighting vs. vicious 'Croat catholics'".
>
> Fun 😱)
>
> O.


Hehe.
















>
 
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"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:r1re11pposs33v3uqimijcqlt75al11k09@4ax.com...
> Yes, but this game is NOT realistic depiction of Balkan combat
> in the 90s.
>
> Bajlo you'd be happy to hear Croats will have Leopard Is in
> their inventory in this game ;o)

Cool, let's not forget Leo 2, Abrams, Panthers and Tigers which we also got.
>🙂

BTW didn't see M-47 Pattons on the list and there were several of them.
 
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"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:3emf11hvpedfb6f5g9pcm4okfbu43jillf@4ax.com...
> But I really want to drive a "catholic Leopard Is" game would
> have you believe Germans sold to Croats. (Yes they did, but no more
> than a handful, perhaps not enough to equip an armored company - Bajlo
> if you know more, please post).

Nope nobody I know has ever seen a Leo in Croatian army - either in one
piece or in pieces - closes thing was T-55 of 4. gbr which had added sheets
of metal and rubber for extra protection so from a distance it could be
mistaken for Leo.

Just another urban legend together with Mig-29, Su-25 which are suppose to
be in crates never assembled etc.

All the junk that did really arrive was shown publicly and still is, Mi-24
are rotting away on Pleso airfield lacking parts to fly, and we probably
still have S-300 missiles but lacking everything else to launch them.

Funny how during WW2 every German tank was reported as Panther or Tiger
while it was only T-34 in German service or only StuG III and in last war we
had T-55 reported as Leo's. ;-))
 
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> T-72 exported to <insert nation here> were inferior to Russian
> ones, and game would want us to believe there was some phantom
> "Russian volunteer company" (never heard of them) fighting in the
> Balkans, on the side of their "orthodox Serb brothers", against "Croat
> catholics" (how stupid) in Russian army T-72s? Just how did they
> transport their T-72s to Yugoslavia would make a story on its own,
> even if we manage to cast aside rest of the drivel.

Dont't want to defend our Slavic bratjuskas Russians 😱) but maybe they
think that Yugoslav M-84 was in fact T-72 on steroids and just a variant of
T-72 anyway?

So when sons of the steppes and veterans of stealing chickens in Afghanistan
mountains came to Serbia they issued them all new
M-84's.

😉


Mario
 
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:56 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
>
>> > And where did you read that?
>>
>> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
>>
>> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article is
>> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument that
>> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to be a
>> Western media conspiracy.
>
>The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
>
>The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
>insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
>1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
>stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
>
>Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
>smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
>western tank here>.

I recall talking to some people in the early 90s that were evaluating
the soviet military equipment that made it's way west after the
reunification of Germany. The consensus seemed to be that the soviet
tanks really were pretty shitty. Problems were mainly with the
auto-loader and aquiring targets while on the move.

I remember that the only piece of Soviet equipment they were really
impressed with was the Mig-29. where they were of the opinion that you
could mate it with 'western' avionics and have a fighter at least as
good as anything in the west.

Rgds, Frank
 
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:17:31 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>Well, one of my cousin who fough in 100 and something zagrebacka brigada, he
>is near you (Malesnica) and he told me that they had Shermans on Banija but
>maybe he don't know the difference, I don't know so...

I think what he saw were Jacksons (M 36). They were used by 2nd Guard brigade
("Thunders") and were subsequently reassigned to 5th Antitank Batallion that
used them in 1995 in Operation Storm. I was with 5th in 1995.


Drax
remove JAMRZIMSPAM for reply
 
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"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g=4ZQmuN3cnXe3ncXy8KttFTWXBS@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:56 -0500, Giftzwerg
> <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <BE3CBD8A.7D3F3%tacops@mac.com>, tacops@mac.com says...
> >
> >> > And where did you read that?
> >>
> >> http://t72.iddk.ru/en/history.html
> >>
> >> It is a bit hard to follow, but I don't think the gist of the article
is
> >> that the T72 is better than the M1. I think it is more of an argument
that
> >> the T72 was not as bad as was reported by what the author perceives to
be a
> >> Western media conspiracy.
> >
> >The gist of the article is that *we can't believe our eyes*.
> >
> >The lunatics who wrote the article appear to be laboring under the
> >insane delusion that, after kicking the snot out of Israeli Merkavas in
> >1982 and American M1s in 1991, the T-72 crewmen reacted to their
> >stunning victories by setting fire to their tanks and abandoning them.
> >
> >Uh, yeah, *that's* how we got the idea that T-72s get turned into
> >smoking piles of twisted rust every time they come up against <insert
> >western tank here>.
>
> I recall talking to some people in the early 90s that were evaluating
> the soviet military equipment that made it's way west after the
> reunification of Germany. The consensus seemed to be that the soviet
> tanks really were pretty shitty. Problems were mainly with the
> auto-loader and aquiring targets while on the move.
>
> I remember that the only piece of Soviet equipment they were really
> impressed with was the Mig-29. where they were of the opinion that you
> could mate it with 'western' avionics and have a fighter at least as
> good as anything in the west.
>
> Rgds, Frank


Yeah, I recall some show on Discovery awhile back about the Mig-29's in
East Germany. Something like 40 + East German pilots were trying to get
into the new German AF.........seven made it.

Remember they had a bunch of USAF guys helping to "evaluate" them, and
with the US guys in their usual F-15's and 16's, they dominated the East
Germans in their 29's. So the Germans blamed it on the US planes being
better (the US was trying to impress the idea of "it's the pilot"). US guys
switched to some obsolete jet, can't recall, F-4's maybe.
Same results.

Bascially, the Soviet doctrines, which the East was using obviously,
didn't cut it <g> So rigid, it didn't allow the East guys to fly their 29's
(an outstanding jet as is) to their potential.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> I think what he saw were Jacksons (M 36). They were used by 2nd Guard
brigade
> ("Thunders") and were subsequently reassigned to 5th Antitank Batallion
that
> used them in 1995 in Operation Storm. I was with 5th in 1995.

Oh my friend Drax, we will both forget arguing from the past and really no
hard feelings toward you from my side.

Thanks for clarification. I have a friend who is still in 2nd Guards Brigade
but I didn't heard from him long time, he told me many stories about action
were he participated, forcing of Una (not succesful action but Serbs did
have even heavier losses, and also one time Serbs air strike have missed
them for about 400m droping cluster bombs (cassete?) on their column, they
had big luck.


Mario
 
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"Ivan Bajlo" <ivan.bajlo@zg.htnet.hr> wrote in message
news:cv7efn$ac$1@news1.xnet.hr...
> Didn't see any Shermans in action but there were plenty of M36

I saw one on a video when the JNA was leaving Poligon C near Osijek.. It had
that old M3 75 mm gun..
 
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"Oleg Mastruko" <oleg@bug.hr> wrote in message
news:rrqe115et2kggc4kddahbclpq065hd9mo7@4ax.com...
> On 19 Feb 2005 04:51:02 -0800, acca170@yahoo.com wrote:
> But then again it has nothing to do with how war is/will be
> depicted in the game itself, and scenarios described on devs site
> (judging from "background" and "overview" sections on the site).

They probably lack missions like "Fire all your tank's HE ammo in direction
of that small town at random houses. Then reload and repeat the process."
which are a necessity to make the game more realistic.
 
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"agh" <agh@kjh.com> wrote in message news:cvcrv7$ub9$1@news.siemens.at...
> They probably lack missions like "Fire all your tank's HE ammo in
direction
> of that small town at random houses. Then reload and repeat the process."
> which are a necessity to make the game more realistic.

Not to mention mission should take several days to complete with next
mission being absolutely the same with only difference name of the village.
;-))
 
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:14:17 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>Oh my friend Drax, we will both forget arguing from the past and really no
>hard feelings toward you from my side.

Likewise. It's not that we have an abundance of wargame enthusiasts in
our little neck of woods.

>Thanks for clarification. I have a friend who is still in 2nd Guards Brigade
>but I didn't heard from him long time, he told me many stories about action
>were he participated, forcing of Una (not succesful action but Serbs did
>have even heavier losses, and also one time Serbs air strike have missed
>them for about 400m droping cluster bombs (cassete?) on their column, they
>had big luck.

If he was referring to the failed operation "Una" that took place in
September 1995, I was in Kostajnica than awaiting the crossing of our
AT batallion as second wave. According to plan, we were supposed to
face Bosnian Serb M-84 tank brigade as a part of the flank AT screen.
Needless to say, I was not overly thrilled by the prospects of our
Jacksons facing M-84s.

This operation was one of the major SNAFUs from our war that I am
aware of.


Drax
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Likewise. It's not that we have an abundance of wargame enthusiasts in
> our little neck of woods.

In fact, most important have gathered in this thread :)


> If he was referring to the failed operation "Una" that took place in
> September 1995, I was in Kostajnica than awaiting the crossing of our
> AT batallion as second wave. According to plan, we were supposed to
> face Bosnian Serb M-84 tank brigade as a part of the flank AT screen.
> Needless to say, I was not overly thrilled by the prospects of our
> Jacksons facing M-84s.
>
> This operation was one of the major SNAFUs from our war that I am
> aware of.

Yes, operation "Una" in 1995. He crossed the river but didn't talked too
much how hard was resistance, but when I asked about our losses, he said
"40" and when I asked what he think about estimate Serbian losse, he said
with a smile "500" 😱)))) But, good soldier is not mentioning individual
kills 😱)))
As I've heard from one guy, M-84 was leathal tank, he was also from Bosnia
and he told me that M-84 had automatic locking of targets (whatever that may
be), I never read too much about modern tanks, I know a basic. But, if those
Jakcsons were kept so long then they are very good weapon, of course no
match for M-84.


Mario
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:43:31 +0100, "Bloodstar"
<george.washington@microsoft.com> wrote:


>In fact, most important have gathered in this thread :)

All four of us, 😱)

>Yes, operation "Una" in 1995.

When operation "Storm" ended, my AT battalion was left at Kostajnica as
garrison. August and early September passed in boredom and "liberation" of
whatever spirit we could track.

Then we heard the news from Bosnian radio how Bosnian troops liberated Bosanska
Krupa and were on their way north to Prijedor, another Bosnian Serb stronghold.
A quick glance on the map, showed that if Bosnians capture Prijedor, entire Serb
controlled region on the south bank of Una would be cut off from the rest of the
Republic of Srpska and forced to surrender.

Apparently, Croatian general staff could read maps too.

Bosnian Serbs also had that ability so their radio stations were calling for
volunteers to join in the defense and asked population to defend their homes.
Nevertheless, Serb population was not stupid and started to pack their bags.

Throughout the weekend preceding the start of the operation "Una" we were
monitoring what was going on across the river in Bosanska Kostajnica. Local
authority stopped the blackout which was going on ever since we got there and it
was obvious there was a panic there.

That saturday I personally escorted a group of high school teachers who helped
clean the local high school in Kostajnica all the way to the damaged bridge
between two towns. Some teachers even went towards the river and waved towards
the other side, provoking it. Nothing happened.

On Sunday, all vacations were suspended and we got our marching orders for
Monday. Our job was to give fire support from our two Jacksons when the crossing
started. We also had a battery of towed AT guns T-12 100mm dugged in and
camouflaged.

Monday morning came, we got our recognition stripes, but morning fog apparently
prevented any offensive action. I casually went to the centre of the city to buy
newspaper and cigarettes for my addict friends.

High noon came and fog lifted. It was time for me to drive few kilometers back
to collect lunch. I drove up the road in perfect site of whatever Serb across
the river, got the lunch, drove back and saw several families of returned
Croatian refugees sitting in their homes, preparing for lunch.

I safely got back, delivered the food and soon after artillery preparation
started...

On Wednesday morning everything was over. We never fired a shot, we remained at
our base playing cards and eating while sporadic artillery duel lasted.

Serb radio, that was in the gloom and defiant mode during the preceding week,
now became cheerful, ful of Serb marching songs, announcing great victory in
repelling "ustasha agressors".

Before I went home to my three day vacation, I managed to sneak into the
operational order that called for four day action, involving crossing the river
and our task in this whole mess.

When I got home, my father showed me the newspapers that were writing about
"constant provocations" from Serb side that we "could not tolerate any more and
had to intervene". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry.

Bosnians did not take Krupa and Prijedor was not in danger so Serbs did not have
to weaken their forces on the river as someone in Croatian general staff hoped
for.

This general was relieved, Bosnians eventually liberated Krupa, we remained in
Kostajnica pending our redeployment to Slavonia for operation "Dunav 95", i.e.
liberation of Vukovar.

Thanks to the Dayton peace accord, we were never redeployed and I was
demobilised in late November.


>As I've heard from one guy, M-84 was leathal tank, he was also from Bosnia
>and he told me that M-84 had automatic locking of targets (whatever that may
>be),

When I was in Yugoslav Army in 1987 we were told the same thing. We were told to
expect to fire no more than two shots from our towed AT guns before we had to
change position.

> I never read too much about modern tanks, I know a basic. But, if those
>Jakcsons were kept so long then they are very good weapon, of course no
>match for M-84.

They got diesel engines and better roof when they were modernised in early
fifities. I believe they were all mothballed before the war and served well in
1991. However, by 1995 most of the engines were thoroughly unreliable and out of
eight machines we had on the eve of Operation "Storm", only four could be
trusted on.

We used them mostly for indirect fire support, but this wasn't without dangers
as we saw at Petrinja...

I leave that for some other post.


Drax
remove JAMRZIMSPAM for reply
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> When operation "Storm" ended, my AT battalion was left at Kostajnica as
> garrison. August and early September passed in boredom and "liberation" of
> whatever spirit we could track.
>
> Then we heard the news from Bosnian radio how Bosnian troops liberated
Bosanska
> Krupa and were on their way north to Prijedor, another Bosnian Serb
stronghold.
> A quick glance on the map, showed that if Bosnians capture Prijedor,
entire Serb
> controlled region on the south bank of Una would be cut off from the rest
of the
> Republic of Srpska and forced to surrender.
>
> Apparently, Croatian general staff could read maps too.
>
> Bosnian Serbs also had that ability so their radio stations were calling
for
> volunteers to join in the defense and asked population to defend their
homes.
> Nevertheless, Serb population was not stupid and started to pack their
bags.
>
> Throughout the weekend preceding the start of the operation "Una" we were
> monitoring what was going on across the river in Bosanska Kostajnica.
Local
> authority stopped the blackout which was going on ever since we got there
and it
> was obvious there was a panic there.
>
> That saturday I personally escorted a group of high school teachers who
helped
> clean the local high school in Kostajnica all the way to the damaged
bridge
> between two towns. Some teachers even went towards the river and waved
towards
> the other side, provoking it. Nothing happened.
>
> On Sunday, all vacations were suspended and we got our marching orders for
> Monday. Our job was to give fire support from our two Jacksons when the
crossing
> started. We also had a battery of towed AT guns T-12 100mm dugged in and
> camouflaged.
>
> Monday morning came, we got our recognition stripes, but morning fog
apparently
> prevented any offensive action. I casually went to the centre of the city
to buy
> newspaper and cigarettes for my addict friends.
>
> High noon came and fog lifted. It was time for me to drive few kilometers
back
> to collect lunch. I drove up the road in perfect site of whatever Serb
across
> the river, got the lunch, drove back and saw several families of returned
> Croatian refugees sitting in their homes, preparing for lunch.
>
> I safely got back, delivered the food and soon after artillery preparation
> started...
>
> On Wednesday morning everything was over. We never fired a shot, we
remained at
> our base playing cards and eating while sporadic artillery duel lasted.
>
> Serb radio, that was in the gloom and defiant mode during the preceding
week,
> now became cheerful, ful of Serb marching songs, announcing great victory
in
> repelling "ustasha agressors".
>
> Before I went home to my three day vacation, I managed to sneak into the
> operational order that called for four day action, involving crossing the
river
> and our task in this whole mess.
>
> When I got home, my father showed me the newspapers that were writing
about
> "constant provocations" from Serb side that we "could not tolerate any
more and
> had to intervene". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry.
>
> Bosnians did not take Krupa and Prijedor was not in danger so Serbs did
not have
> to weaken their forces on the river as someone in Croatian general staff
hoped
> for.
>
> This general was relieved, Bosnians eventually liberated Krupa, we
remained in
> Kostajnica pending our redeployment to Slavonia for operation "Dunav 95",
i.e.
> liberation of Vukovar.
>
> Thanks to the Dayton peace accord, we were never redeployed and I was
> demobilised in late November.

Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...

> We used them mostly for indirect fire support, but this wasn't without
dangers
> as we saw at Petrinja...
>
> I leave that for some other post.

Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...

Regards,


Mario
 
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george.washington@microsoft.com wrote:
> Bosanska
> stronghold.
> entire Serb
> of the
> for
> homes.
> bags.
> Local
> and it
> helped
> bridge
> towards
> crossing
> apparently
> to buy
> back
> across
> remained at
> week,
> in
> river
> about
> more and
> not have
> hoped
> remained in
> i.e.
> Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...
> dangers
> Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...
> Regards,
> Mario

Thanks!

volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com
 
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In article <42403b0d@news.012.net.il>, volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com
says...

> > Bosanska
> > stronghold.
> > entire Serb
> > of the
> > for
> > homes.
> > bags.
> > Local
> > and it
> > helped
> > bridge
> > towards
> > crossing
> > apparently
> > to buy
> > back
> > across
> > remained at
> > week,
> > in
> > river
> > about
> > more and
> > not have
> > hoped
> > remained in
> > i.e.
> > Very nice story, excellent! I always enjoy to hear first hand accounts...
> > dangers
> > Whenever you feel to continue this story, no problem...
> > Regards,
> > Mario
>
> Thanks!
>
> volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com

Is the bulk of this poem written in iambic unimeter? Duometer?

--
Giftzwerg
***
"So if you are a Democrat your value system works like this....

Unborn Child? Kill It.
Sick Woman? Kill it.
Convicted Murder on death row? Do every thing you can do to save it!"

- Wizbang Paul
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> Thanks!
>
> volgariverbill1929@duskmail.com

Well, you are welcome, our Usenet theatre will do anything to please the
public. Even Her Majesty Queen was satisfied. 😉


Mario