News Thanks to Miners and Scalpers, eBay Pricing for Ampere, RDNA2 GPUs Continue to Rise

[Endymio]

It's actually a win win. If you think about it even if just 15% of wafer supply went to gamers that is more than we likely have.

So you believe it's in the manufacturer's interest to damage 85% of their customers, in order to benefit 15% of them? 🤔

some of these techniques have kept satellites safe for decades from hack and bypass techniques ...

A satellite operator has full control of both the hardware and software environment for the entire lifecycle. A GPU maker has neither. Worse, to function properly, a modern GPU must have a certain degree of functional flexibility, else it won't work for any application. You're not making an apples to oranges comparison here, but more like apples to sperm whales.

InvalidError is entirely correct. What you're proposing is not only technically infeasible, but even if it did work, would in the long run hurt gamers and the gaming market far more than it would help.

 

[digitalgriffin]

The whole point of block chain is that there is no central authority doing any sort of vetting. You are free to implement the mining algorithm any way you want, the only vetting you get is peers checking your proof-of-work when you attempt to publish it to confirm its validity.

And what happens if you mess the hash up and all those gpu's reject your token hash?

You get burned.

If you are constantly shifting source code just to bypass a gaming gpu's security (which I have proven by example can be damn hard to bypass) then you are undermining the validity of your own coin. This is why fah and seti didn't allow it.

 

[digitalgriffin]

So you believe it's in the manufacturer's interest to damage 85% of their customers, in order to benefit 15% of them? 🤔

A satellite operator has full control of both the hardware and software environment for the entire lifecycle. A GPU maker has neither. Worse, to function properly, a modern GPU must have a certain degree of functional flexibility, else it won't work for any application. You're not making an apples to oranges comparison here, but more like apples to sperm whales.

InvalidError is entirely correct. What you're proposing is not only technically infeasible, but even if it did work, would in the long run hurt gamers and the gaming market far more than it would help.

Ummmm no. No no and nooooooo. I have experience in this area. But I'm no longer sure what is classified and what is not. So I will not comment on satellite security measures more than I have. But your presumptions are wrong. Even the mars rovers and hubble can be reprogrammed on the fly to adapt to mission specific objectives and problems. End point security is just one of 3 prongs to keep non approved code from running.

Let's say 5% of the market today actually managed to grab ahold of a gaming card for gaming only. 15% is better than 5%. And nvidia and amd get to make fatter margins and total profits off mining.

Again they owe us nothing as gamers. But if the market bottoms out again they will need our support. If they burn us too bad then people will look to competition like intel. And once people switch they tend to stay loyal. This is one of the reasons certain companies maintain a stranglehold despite offering less value.

You guys act like you don't like this idea.

So are you invested in mining?

Looking for ideas to take?

Or just want to be negative nancies/devil's advocate

 

[InvalidError]

And what happens if you mess the hash up and all those gpu's reject your token hash?

Why would they be rejected? If you did your code re-factor correctly, you can validate your changes against blocks that have already been solved and become part of the block chain before deploying the changes to the rest of your mining farm. The mining network does not care how you found a valid solution for a given block, it only cares that the solution checks out.

 

[digitalgriffin]

Why would they be rejected? If you did your code re-factor correctly, you can validate your changes against blocks that have already been solved and become part of the block chain before deploying the changes to the rest of your mining farm. The mining network does not care how you found a valid solution for a given block, it only cares that the solution checks out.

Validating a hash is in itself a very gpu intensive operation. It takes a long time. And just because your own hash validates doesn't mean it's correct on a long term

 

[InvalidError]

Validating a hash is in itself a very gpu intensive operation. It takes a long time. And just because your own hash validates doesn't mean it's correct on a long term

You apparently have absolutely no clue how block chains work. Block chains have a practically infinite number of possible solutions. The whole point of the gigahash war is to be first to find the next solution to be added to the block chain and immortalize the blocks that came before it. Verifying hashes takes microseconds - that's why GPUs can do MEGA-hashes per second. The part that takes time is finding a solution to the mathematical challenge such as BTC's "find RNG pad data that will cause the hash to end in N consecutive 0s" which can take several minutes network-wide. Once a solution is found, it gets pushed to the network, verified by peers and becomes the starting state for the next block search.

 

[Endymio]

Ummmm no. I have experience in this area. But I'm no longer sure what is classified and what is not. So I will not comment on satellite security measures more than I have. ..

An excellent example of the logical fallacy known as the "appeal to authority". However, for it to have even a slim chance of success, you have to be actually speaking with authority.

...Even the mars rovers and hubble can be reprogrammed on the fly... End point security is just one of 3 prongs to keep non approved code from running

Sigh, of course most telemetry targets can be reprogrammed. Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. The point you're missing (actually, you're missing several) is that there the entire concept of "non-approved" versus "approved" code doesn't exist for graphics cards. NVidia doesn't write the code their GPUs run -- independent software developers do. Despite the name, a modern GPU has very little circuitry that is graphics-specific. It's essentially just a highly parallel cpu. The solution you propose would require the GPU to be lobotomized to the point that entire classes of algorithms would fail to operate. That would hurt graphics engines as much as mining code.

Worse, the larger point you're missing is that, even if such a technical solution did exist, it would hurt both GPU makers and those gamers who you mistakenly believe you're protecting. Miners buying cards is -- long term -- a very, very good thing for gamers. The PC gaming market is nowhere near large enough to fund the exponentially-increasing cost of developing sub-7nm GPUs.

You guys act like you don't like this idea.

True. Because it's beyond imbecile.

Validating a hash is in itself a very gpu intensive operation. It takes a long time.

Lol, no it doesn't. See above. To add to @InvalidError 's excellent rebuttal, I'll point out such validation doesn't need to occur in real time. If you actually were involved in classified remote telemetry operations, you'd be familiar with the rigorous validation procedures required for any update before a single byte of code goes into production. Similar validation libraries exist for mining code. Update, validate against a few hundred thousand test cases, and the chances that the algorithm will malfunction in practice is miniscule. Your belief that miners will somehow "be burned" by faulty algorithm updates is absurd.

 

[InvalidError]

such validation doesn't need to occur in real time.

In the case of block chains, validation is rather quite time-critical since if two people find a solution to the current block at almost the same time, the network will most likely converge toward whichever solution propagates through the network fastest. The newest solved block also needs to propagate quickly to reduce the amount of time nodes are wasting on solving a block that has already been solved and update them with the new block chain state.

 

[digitalgriffin]

An excellent example of the logical fallacy known as the "appeal to authority". However, for it to have even a slim chance of success, you have to be actually speaking with authority.

Sigh, of course most telemetry targets can be reprogrammed. Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. The point you're missing (actually, you're missing several) is that there the entire concept of "non-approved" versus "approved" code doesn't exist for graphics cards. NVidia doesn't write the code their GPUs run -- independent software developers do. Despite the name, a modern GPU has very little circuitry that is graphics-specific. It's essentially just a highly parallel cpu. The solution you propose would require the GPU to be lobotomized to the point that entire classes of algorithms would fail to operate. That would hurt graphics engines as much as mining code.

Worse, the larger point you're missing is that, even if such a technical solution did exist, it would hurt both GPU makers and those gamers who you mistakenly believe you're protecting. Miners buying cards is -- long term -- a very, very good thing for gamers. The PC gaming market is nowhere near large enough to fund the exponentially-increasing cost of developing sub-7nm GPUs.

True. Because it's beyond imbecile.

Lol, no it doesn't. See above. To add to @InvalidError 's excellent rebuttal, I'll point out such validation doesn't need to occur in real time. If you actually were involved in classified remote telemetry operations, you'd be familiar with the rigorous validation procedures required for any update before a single byte of code goes into production. Similar validation libraries exist for mining code. Update, validate against a few hundred thousand test cases, and the chances that the algorithm will malfunction in practice is miniscule. Your belief that miners will somehow "be burned" by faulty algorithm updates is absurd.

You don't know what you are talking about. I don't have the time to explain it. Until you know my background or my expertise, it's rather unfair and provocative to suggest I am trying to win an argument by moral authority. I'm not taking the bait on bad behavior.

Have a nice day.

 

[vanadiel007]

"creating a perceived supply issue, causing prices for their products to rise"

When these high demand GPS and consoles were sold, what was the price? Basically, MSRP.
The scalper community is marking up. And FOMO gamers are paying that.

AMD and Nvidia get none of that.


So lets say that the MSRP was raised from $500 to $700, just before release.
This same group of FOMO would have bitched long and loud.

And scalper bots would still have bought up most of the supply.


What I'm seeing in a LOT of these comments is:
"They should prioritize our gaming over all other uses"
and
"In a perfect ECON world, it works like this"

Code to prevent mining, more high end GPU production, magical antibot webstores, blah blah...

I am neither gamer nor miner.

Well, there's an article on the front page of this news site about European retailers having already raised their prices above MSRP for the RTX 3060 cards. (52 to 75% higher than MSRP announced by Nvidia).
So no, it's not just scalpers. It's also retail outlets.
Everybody along the food chain is benefitting from this, including Nvidia and AMD.

 

[vanadiel007]

A few facts interfere with this tinfoil-hat analysis. Firstly, NVidia doesn't need to manufacture excuses to set higher prices. They own the product; they can freely charge whatever they wish, be it $500 or $500,000. Basic economics, though, dictates that at some point a higher price yields lower revenue, by depressing total sales volume. NVidia (and all manufacturers) attempt to find this point, and price accordingly. Now and always.

Further, manufacturers are never obligated to release new products on a set schedule. They do so when it benefits them, which usually means when it's necessary to keep them ahead or abreast of their competitors.

Third and finally -- do you believe the entire Covid pandemic and everyone affected by it is also part of the conspiracy? It's affected supply and demand across all sectors of the economy. Air ticket and hotel prices are less than 1/5 their normal cost in many markets. Do you think those industries are conspiring to lower their prices and decimate their own profits? And, more relevantly, if people are staying home, rather than flying and booking hotel rooms, what at-home activity might they spend their time upon, and what might they purchase to aid that activity? 🤔

Nvidia does set the MSRP value. There's an article on the front page of this news site that talks about European retailers increasing prices from anywhere to 52-75% above MSRP for the newly released RTX 3060.
With proper supply, that would not be possible.
With a choked down supply, that and more is possible.

It's not anymore about supply and demand. It's about choking down supply , creating hype (review sites, youtube channels etc...), and increasing demand.
It creates more revenue and profit than just supplying the market to fill the demand.

 

[VforV]

At this point I can't wait for Intel to join the dedicated GPU wars and come to the rescue... I was not expecting I would say this in 2021 if you asked me a yea ago, but we desperately need the 3rd and even the 4th competitor on the GPU market, more than anywhere else.

I think that is the only fix that will alleviate the issue, both on short and long term.

I imagine Intel seeing all this $$$ coming from the GPU market at the moment and they are in frenzy mode to come to launch ASAP, because it would be a pity if they come to late, after the mining craze ends... the sooner they come the better (for them and for us gamers).

 

[InvalidError]

It's not anymore about supply and demand. It's about choking down supply , creating hype (review sites, youtube channels etc...), and increasing demand.
It creates more revenue and profit than just supplying the market to fill the demand.

Nvidia and AMD provide chips to AIB partners at set contract prices for the duration of said contracts, retailers increasing retail prices by 10X does not get chip manufacturers any additional money until chip manufacturers either increase the chip supply (more revenue from increased volume and selling the extra supply above existing contract obligations at whatever new contract price they want for it) or their AIB contracts are up for renewal.

 

[Endymio]

In the case of block chains, validation is rather quite time-critical

You mistook my meaning. The validation I'm referring to is validating proper functioning of the updated code base.

for the duration of said contracts, retailers increasing retail prices by 10X does not get chip manufacturers any additional money

Not quite. Downstream windfall profits tend to trickle upstream. A retailer making enormous profits is willing to renegotiate a higher price to their supplier, in exchange for additional supply or faster delivery. Also, we have no idea how long those contracts are. It's extremely doubtful they're longer than a year: the length of time the pandemic has been in force.

 

[Endymio]

Until you know my background or my expertise, it's rather unfair and provocative to suggest I am trying to win an argument by moral authority. I'm not taking the bait on bad behavior.

This from the person who accused us of being coin miners, only tearing down your pet theory because we were financially invested? Pot, meet kettle.

 

[memydidydo]

eBay should crack down on this.

I am at the moment trying to get hold of a PS5. Its hard enough as it is without the scaplers.

I understand that we all need to make money but this scalping is out of order. I couldn't make a living this way.

 

[VforV]

eBay should crack down on this.

I am at the moment trying to get hold of a PS5. Its hard enough as it is without the scaplers.

I understand that we all need to make money but this scalping is out of order. I couldn't make a living this way.

It's called having a conscience and common sense, more and more people are lacking both of them these days, that plus having an excess of greed... So these types of individuals profit off of those that have more money than sense, another kind that is increasing these days...
The end result is that the reasonable and level minded people are the ones most affected by this vicious circle.

 

[memydidydo]

It's called having a conscience and common sense, more and more people are lacking both of them these days, that plus having an excess of greed... So these types of individuals profit off of those that have more money than sense, another kind that is increasing these days...
The end result is that the reasonable and level minded people are the ones most affected by this vicious circle.

Yeah I totally agree.

Hopefully ebay can crack down on this as leave these scalpers holding lots of stock that they cannot make a profit on.

 

[Wolfshadw]

As long as retailers get the items sold and shipped, they're not going to do too much.
As long as EBay gets their cut from every scalper sale, they're not going to do anything.

[THEORY]
No. I don't think we'll see much of anything until the game developers start losing money.

Hot new game is released. Sales are sluggish because FOMO Gamers are not going to spend their money on a game they can't max out. They can't max it out because they're not going to pay scalper prices for the best cards. Game developer loses millions on their latest AAA effort. Somebody starts making phone calls.
[/THEORY]

-Wolf sends

 

[VforV]

Yeah I totally agree.

Hopefully ebay can crack down on this as leave these scalpers holding lots of stock that they cannot make a profit on.

Unfortunately I'm not getting my hopes up that it will happen, unless like @Wolfshadw said the other side effect happens too...
I think for at least 1 more year we will suffer for GPUs and at least 6 more months for consoles.

 

[InvalidError]

Hot new game is released. Sales are sluggish because FOMO Gamers are not going to spend their money on a game they can't max out.

I doubt "FOMO gamers" are a sufficiently large chunk of most games' market to actually hurt game developers. For the most part, games are designed/ported the other way around to accommodate the largest base of existing systems they reasonably can. If you are such a "FOMO gamer" and a game is any good, you always have the option of playing the game a first time as-is with your current system and re-playing it after you have upgraded if not seeing it in absolute max details really bothered you.

I'm perfectly fine with playing games at whatever details is necessary to make them playable on my GTX1050 until the next 100+% GPU upgrade becomes available new-in-box for under $200.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Yeah I totally agree.

Hopefully ebay can crack down on this as leave these scalpers holding lots of stock that they cannot make a profit on.

Why would eBay want to stop sales of things where it makes a 10% profit? It's the entire business model eBay was founded on: Get people to sell stuff and take a modest cut. eBay likes to pretend it wants to stop scalpers, but really it's just trying to stop sales that will end up in returns (or bogus sales in the first place). If anything, the only real change eBay is likely to make is a ban of anyone caught trying to sell an image or box of a hot commodity. People actually selling GPUs at higher than usual prices? More money for eBay!

 

[hotaru.hino]

I understand that we all need to make money but this scalping is out of order. I couldn't make a living this way.

What I find funny is that article floating around about a scalper trying to justify his practices, comparing himself to a grocer who charges an upmarket fee for a product.

The thing is, and I'm stealing this from other comments, is that the grocer provides value to the product by collecting the product into a centralized and convenient location for people to shop from. They're offering you the service of not having to drive out to the farmer to pick up the produce (which for me, I think the nearest dairy farmer is literally 4 hours away). A scalper buying up everything in stock from retailers whom I can purchase from directly is not providing any real value. And in fact, they're probably taking away value. For instance, what if I get a defective unit? While I'll probably get a refund, I don't want that. I want a replacement. A scalper can't give me that. Of course, I could just sell off the defective unit "as-is" but that's more effort than I'm willing to put up with.

Also any semblance of charity-giving these scalpers do, as the person in said article said they did, I see as lip service at best. Someone shared a thing where when one of those hand sanitizer and paper towel hoarders donated their supply, they demanded a receipt for more value than what the items actually sold for.

 

[Phaaze88]

Scalping Exploitation: exists.
Human race: some of the population consists of idiots, as well as folks with more money than sense, of which to be exploited.
Exploitation is ok because people are willing to pay for it. /s

This is just a matter of ethics.

 

[cryoburner]

None of the numbers I used were "random", nor anything approaching that. Unsurprisingly, you're missing the entire point of my off-the-cuff analysis. Of course none of the figures were extremely precise: some were too low, some were high, and some may be as far off as a factor of 2 or 3. But the resultant estimate is certainly correct to within an order of magnitude, and it clearly demonstrates that the statement that worldwide gaming uses "a few dozen tons" of coal is absolute nonsense.

You are using data incorrectly. There is not anywhere near 2.2 billion people who game an average of 832 hours a year on devices drawing an average of 200 watts. Your numbers are too high across the board, and ignore the fact that most of these "gamers" are just doing casual gaming, either on very low-powered devices like cell phones, or for significantly less time. Their example might have been inaccurate and not based on any actual data, but yours is just as bad if not worse, since you are using math based on improperly used data to give people the false impression that what you are claiming is accurate.

Per console. Add up all the iterations of the various consoles on the market and, even only counting older generations partially, due to their lower power consumption and greater dropout rate, you still reach a figure of over half a billion.

Those are not the numbers per-console. That is the combined total between Microsoft and Sony's consoles worldwide over the course of each generation, including enhanced and updated versions of the consoles. And it's been relatively consistent for the last few console generations over the last couple decades. The numbers are actually a bit higher than 150 million units, closer to 170 million, but accounting for some overlap from those who own more than one or have had a device fail, the number of households should be roughly around 150 million. Sure, there will be some with only a prior-generation console who never upgrade to a current-gen one over the 7+ years that they are on the market, but they are probably not using it on a daily basis either. Most prior-generation consoles tend to sit around unused, collecting dust most of the time once the next generation is established. And the same goes for a lot of current system owned by more casual players who only use them for gaming on occasion. So, there is absolutely not anywhere close to half a billion "performance" consoles in active use. That would amount to pretty much every one of them manufactured since the PS2 and original Xbox.