The Apple Mac Cost Misconception

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safcmanfr

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Regardless of the merits (imagined or otherwise) of the Mac OS X, they are considerably more expensive.

Still cant see that second opinion you promised you put in if one of us provided you with a one page counter-argument. And there have been several replies.
 
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As other have already said, comparing a 15" MacBook Pro with a 17" XPS is non-sense.
If you wanted to do a meaningful comparison you should have picked the 15" XPS that matches the MacBook Pro's hardware closely and has a far better price.
You are also missing another very important factor: the MacBook Pro price is what you pay, the Dell price is not what you pay... I don't know anyone that pays the full Dell price, you always end up with a significant discount.
 

bardia

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@spartanii

One cannot even say as a blanket statement that "Macs are more reliable" anymore. How can one measure "more reliable" when both are rock solid? I can't remember the last time I had a real genuine error on my Vista Ultimate desktop.

Even a piddly IE crash from poorly written web-scripts almost never happens anymore. Locking up in a game? It's been over a year... AT LEAST (and that's 3-4 hours a day on the PC minimum.)

Yes, my OS 10.4 Macbook is very solid as well, although I have to admit that Safari crashes to desktop about 3-4 times as often as IE does... but since that's rare for either system... who cares?

Macs have their advantages (style and getting used to a *nix enviornment two of the biggies), but when it comes to stability or price, they at times have one, but never both.

For example, sure, there are cheapass PC's that are loaded with crapware crash often. Apple gets around this by offering nothing on the lowend. But an untainted PC is going to be just as stable. So even when Apple wins on stability, they're going to get killed on price. When they tie on price (i've never seen an apple "win" on price), they is no reason why they shouldn't tie on stability, because a well built windows system is crash-free as well.

 

bardia

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[citation][nom]Shaggywang[/nom]not to be annoying but tom's hardware has really lost its touch on bringing me worthwhile articles about hardware performance and comparison of products in a intelligent fashion. I seriously don't care about "price comparsions" about mac vs pc, especially when it is written because someone in the forums said something. This is front page give me a break. I want tomshardware back to the old days when there were actually reviews about products vs other products in terms of performance/price and techy facts; also with the end case opinion of whether or not the product(s) were even worth our time. Where are the monitor reviews? Sound system reviews? mouse and mouse pad reviews? keyboard reviews? Computer case reviews? nada, abosolutely nada. The only good section of toms hardware is toms game, they are always on the ball and keep up to date. [/citation]

^^^ THIS!!!!

Seriously what happened? I used to worship at the alter of THG... but it's been so long since those days that I almost forgot that all these goodies used to be here for our daily indulgence. /sniff
 

xnem3s1sx

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I disagree with the thought that Macs are horribly overpirced, for their exact hardware, they are fine, but I think your comparison system was not an accurate comparison, as the argument used by PC fans is not EQUAL, but EQUIVILENT, they want the same performance, for a lower price, not the same equipment. You could get a nearly equal processor for 750 less (core 2 quad, or amd phenom 9950BE)and still have comparable, (not equal) performance. The objective is not an exact match, but rather an equivalent speed for the least amount of money. Additionally, if you’re planning to build a single processor system, then you don't buy a 2 slot motherboard, (an advantage Mac doesn’t offer) (Just a quick error I noticed, If you have a 1394b controller, you don't need an A, as it will suffice for both.)
Additionally, one point that can be made is that you can also spent 319 on a power supply, when a sufficient one could be bought for under 200, and in some cases under 150. Often, with rebates from sites such as NewEgg, you can save up to 300 between combo deals and mail in rebates. The case is equivalent, but because of mass production, I'm sure that it is fairly priced, as Mac cases are produced on a much larger scale that almost any aftermarket PC case. The advantages of mass production are enormous, for example (and its unfortunate that I use a Microsoft product here) it is impossible to build a PC anywhere near equivalent to the XBOX 360, for under 400, and difficult under $1000, although possible, but Microsoft still manages to make money. I’m sure Dell doesn’t pay anywhere near retail value for their parts, but they couldn’t come anywhere near that performance to price ratio. (I do understand that the XBOX isn’t exactly a computer, but if Mac is building proprietary hardware, they should be capable of a noticeable performance boost)
The reason that PC’s tend to have a better price to performance ratio is that you can build a computer to almost any spec, or for almost any amount of money, such as you showed in your “Build Your Own Mini-PC for 80$” article. The other advantage is that, when you are building a PC, you almost always have the ability to find a better deal, such as a universal 60 dollars off of windows vista, when you buy a processor. I think it would be more accurate, if you attempted to build an equivalent performance (NOT equal) for the least money possible, and test both computers on Linux. I'm sure that you have enough fans willing to give their specs, the current cost of the parts, and a 3dmark score to attempt to argue their point, and all you would need to do is supply the software for the tests. ( 3Dmark is windows only, and that wouldn’t be a accurate test of the Mac’s speed)
On the other hand, the Mac operating system is beautiful, and cannot be flawed for that, and much of the appreciation for Macs comes from a mix of their beauty, and a hate for large establishment. (Also from misinformation, see Mohave experiment) I do enjoy the Mac OS, and use it at least 5 hours week. I don't claim to be a fan boy of either, but I feel that the object of this article was misguided. What the article was supposed to show was equivalent performance, NOT equal parts value. If you prefer the Mac OS, then I have no objection, and can completely agree, but the argument that an equivalent performance PC costs the same isn’t correct, perhaps a equally equipped computer may, (again, mass production, Apple pays less for their parts as well, which should be taken into consideration, but if we are to go that in-detail, then we ought to consider other more precise things)
One final point, that Macs are capable of running Windows, is misleading, as there is software to do the same for the Mac OS on PC’s (see Psystar)
P.S. I'm glad thought to see that someone could atempt somthing as far as a realistic veiw of the PC-Mac wars.
 

hurbt

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Interesting article... seems fairly unbiased. I'm a big fan of macbooks, though the only experience I have with one is from using my roommates. Seems like a nice laptop.

What I find really stupid is buying a laptop to play games. When a 4850 is $150, an E8500 is $170, and 4 gigs of ram is $80, you're a fool not to build a desktop for gaming. For less than $1,000, you can build a top notch gaming rig, then for $700 you can buy a laptop that will suffice for all your other needs, like email'ing, word processing, etc. In total, you'll spend less building 2 machines, than trying to build a laptop that can play games... which it won't even do that well after spending $2,000+
 
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No, Macs aren't so outrageously priced, considering what you get. The real question is, do you need any of that crap?

I have a 30" Dell monitor that I spent $800 on (the model was being discontinued). I need a fast GPU and dual-link DVI to drive it. The cheapest Mac that will drive it is the Xeon-based Mac Pro for $2000.

A Radeon HD 4850 + Q9300 + 4GB DDR2 self-built system is around $1000, or half the price.

Why the hell should I have to buy a dual-slot Xeon system with expensive FB-DIMM memory just to get a system with PCIe slots? Even cheap Athlon 64 x2 boxes (which go for $400) have PCIe slots.

The cheapest Mac notebook is the $1100 MacBook.

You can get an HP notebook with a Turion x2 1.9GHz, 2GB of DDR2, a 120GB HDD, 802.11g, webcam, and a DVD burner for $530. That's less than half the price.

What does the Mac have that the HP doesn't? A faster CPU (Core 2 vs Turion), MagSafe, and 802.11n. What does the HP have? Twice as much memory and a much better GPU. Is the MacBook better overall? Maybe. Is it $570 better? Hell no.
 

kitsilencer

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To claim that Mac OS is proprietary indicates a total lack of understanding on the computer landscape. As proof, a survey conducted by Fortune indicated clearly that even Linux on the desktop still has yet to surpass the 1-percent market share milestone. In a recent posting at ArsTechnica, Apple surpassed 8-percent market share. Proprietary? Absolutely wrong.

WHAT? Usage and penetration rates DO NOT (REPEAT: DO NOT) indicate whether an OS is proprietary. They indicate (surprise) USAGE and PENETRATION rates.
 

sjss

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I'm surprised you didn't put any ASUS notebooks up there. A friend of mine was looking for notebooks a while ago, she ended up getting the Mac, but one thing we found, even with the cost of MacOS, and the hassle of getting OS X86 to run, ASUS had some identical notebooks to the Macbook pros, for a couple hundred dollars cheaper, and they already had the Licence for Windows (for dual boot or Fusion).

In my experience, and several others, MacOS is *not* perfectly stable, it'll crash like any other OS, Apple just controls the hardware, so you don't get bad hardware (as easily), and get less crashes. I have Windows on a Toshiba notebook, and a few Tyan based desktops I made, and it just doesn't crash, except for the rare (read once or twice a year) odd case. That's less often than my friend's Macbook. With programming, gaming, web browsing, email, photo editing, etc. These machines aren't being treated gently.

The few times I've specced out equal builds, the home builds (equal or better quality parts) are usually 20-30% cheaper (not including OS, so from more expensive on the competes-with-mini-or-imac, to a bit less with the towers). In the end, it amounts to taste, if you like MacOS, you'll pay Apple prices. If you don't, you wont. If you are indifferent, you'll probably be better off with a PC if you know what to look for.

Mac = Safe (one option of manufacturer, known quality, moderately high price)
PC = Risk (various maufacturers from low priced low quality to high price high quality, but you want the mid price mid/high quality to high price high quality if you get them). PCs require more research to get the bang for your buck and not get burned. I don't mind the research and it's good for me. There are a LOT of people who it isn't good for.
 

spaztic7

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I agree and like bar soap better; it seems to do a better job at cleaning. But liquid soap makes your skin so much softer! Although with liquid soap you have to buy that poof thingy (which is a pain in the arse when you go to rinse out).

Bar soap kicks liquid soaps butt!





I think we need a biased THG review on this...
 

spaztic7

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I vote worst article ever!

Badly researched and comparisons were unfairly made. Baseline PC = under $1000. Baseline Mac = over $2000. Both run Word fine. The internet works good and Solitare gameplay is smooth. This is where the market is at. Most people are not gamers. SUPRISE! A low income family who want to buy a machine for the 10 year old to type up his first assignment will not spend the big dollars on the Mac. Thats a fact!

Its a toss up between this and the cpu heat-sink review they did.
 
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Wow, talk about "misconceptions"-- I think everyone except our dear author understood 'proprietary' to mean that you couldn't load OSX on anything but "Mac" hardware. (granted there are workarounds, but that's not in the scope of the article)
I don't think I'm the only one who would gladly pony up the $130 for a legit copy of OSX if I could legally install it on a machine I built!
The idea was mentioned, but not fully explored. But Tom's has the "Best gaming cards for the money" article. And that's exactly what the Mac Vs PC battle needs, the best PC for the cash. If you need a basic laptop for school/office use and you're in the sub $700 category, this is exactly where Mac cannot compete based on VALUE. Obviously as you enter the $3000-5000 desktop range the scales begin to tip in favor of Mac.
 
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Since all the problems/issues have been brought up already, I'll contribute the following quote:

"Mr. Nguyen, what you've just posted is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent article were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on TomsHardware is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
 

hawler

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The biggest problem with this article is that it's comparing two very different notebooks, I mean sure, the specs are very similar but the only reason anyone would get specs that high on a windows notebook is to game, something that the Mac can't do besides a very few select games.

Not many of the applications people run on their laptops needs that much hardware, so people would get a much cheaper PC and still be able to use the web/word/excel with no problems. But since Mac forces you do get a moderate-expensive notebook no matter what there simply isn't an entry-level price for their entry level product compared to windows laptops
 

spaztic7

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I am not quite sure what you mean buy this comment. I use windows Vista Ultimate x64 bit on my desktop, and I have a MacBook.

When I install a program on Windows, I get 1 box that comes up and says are you sure, I click yes or continue and it does it. When I upgrade windows, I get a single box that says "you must give this admin rights" and then I do (no password required). After that it just does it.

Now for OSX.5, When I install something, it asks me would I like to do this, I select yes; then it asks for the admin password. After entering that, it installs what I want after I have to drag and drop it into the application folder (why, I just told it to install it). When I go to update it (I had over 100+ updates because I did keep up with Apples security patches or other hot-fixes and SP) I had to click on approve for every patch, hot-fix, or sp that came up. I had to enter the admin password just as many times as I had to click on "Yes I want to install this patch". Not only that, but I do not remember the last time any version of Windows had a processor patch, which is a pain in the ass to install on a Mac.



At the end of the day, you have to pick what you want. You have to be happy with what you use. It's like any car out there. You don't get a car that you hate and don't want to operate, you get a car because you enjoy it (and it in you budget, but that may be why you enjoy it).
 

Vorador2

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This is one of the most dishonest articles i've ever read here. Tomshardware quality has gone through the drain really bad.

Apple systems have good designs and the OS is one of the best out there, but you're paying a hefty premium for the hardware. You can buy a similar PC a lot cheaper and perform the same or better.

Also the PCs the author have selected are way overpriced and cherry picked to match the mac prices and characteristics on purpose of making the mac look less bad. This is ridiculous, i can build a similar system on Dell webpage that eats alive the MacBook Pro for a similar price.
 

DoMTaR

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wow...thats like saying i bought a used yugo for $50,000 and comparing it to buying a corvette...Just because your dumb enough to pay 50 grand for a yugo doesnt mean its worth $50,000...

Lack of IQ = fail
 

e_sandrs

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[citation][nom]TrueRock[/nom]Does anyone know what OS and server hardware Apples uses to deliver iTunes? I tried to Google an answer and couldn't find it. iTunes must take an amazing amount of infrastructure to deliver. Does it all run in one datacenter?[/citation]

Although the answer isn't perfectly clear, it looks like they run on Solaris OS systems according to Netcraft:

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=iTunes.com

I'd have to dig deeper for overall server configurations - but I would imagine the iTunes store is mirrored around via some Akamai-like structure.
 

Arnagath

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This is what I think

Macs:
expensive
feminine
horrible software
easier to use
not able to play games
incompatible with some software

PCs:
customizable
masculine
no horrible software
cheaper
more difficult to use unless you know how to use it and it becomes easier (slower learning curve)
OS looks better
cases look allot better
any hardware i want
able to play games
compatible with almost everything

I think macs suck plain and simple, does not mean I cant understand their use, some people only want to use email and then macs work perfectly. cheers!
 
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Per AJ28's comments...
"Now, the second part is something most of you are destined not to understand... Consider - When was the last time you took a new, manufactured computer out of the box for the first time and booted it up? If it wasn't anytime in recent history, then the hour-long first boot of Vista is foreign to you. About half-way through, the manufacturer takes over. HP wants you to go through THEIR setup process now, including prompts to sign up for an ISP and get setup with HP Update and... Wait... HP Update? What about Windows Update? Oh right, every manufacturer in the PC realm insists on having their OWN utilities overriding OS-related functions. Now I know why everyone else's Vista computers crash so much more often than mine =)"

AJ. You didn't have to state HP. I knew where you were going when you said hours to get to the OS. Apparently you haven't done the same thing on a Lenovo that you talk about above. HP is what you are repairing at the retail chain you work at, "Geeksquad?" HP is the reason so many people are becoming mac fans. It never ceases to amaze me how many "so called" professionals scream about how fantastic HP is. Then people actually listen to them, purchase one and have a horrific experience and then compare it to a MAC experience. I'd convert too, if I thought that was what the best in the PC market was. We send out HP's weekly for repair. When we ran IBM, which by the way was made by Lenovo, before Lenovo bought out the division we almost never had to deal with these issues.

As a side note. The first PC I built ran for 10 years without a single hickup, the only reason I decommisioned it, was that it finally had frame rate drop on UT. It ran ever game prior perfectly. I've been running the second machine I built sine '02. The only problem was a PS that failed to make enough power. I think Antec had a bad year. I am now putting together another computer since my current won't do BluRay. So I am very aware of what is quality and what is not.

Bottom line. If you have to use the general market to compare MAC to anything, use Lenovo. Check consumer reports for those results.
 

ComputerExpert

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This is a very reasonable article. There are several other advantages of Macs that are not explained. See "http://systemshootouts.org" for examples of other factors (like viruses) that should be considered.

Also Macs can be bought less expensively than at Apple's website (e.g. at Amazon).

The bottom line is that Macs are a FAR superior product in EVERY regard.

BTW I've been in the computer business for some 40 years, so didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
 

eodeo

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If you're stupid enough to pay retail for a Dell, then Apple just might be the computer for you.

100% correct.

Only super computer illiterate people would consider using DELL/HP... When you want to pay 90% extra $ for a brand name, you might as well get a Mac, and a sucker sticker while you’re at it.

Wow, you took a PC desktop with identical hardware and proved that it would cost the same as the baseline Mac Pro.
What's the point? You can build a PC with hardware that isn't identical but PERFORMS better for CHEAPER. Picking the same overpriced PC components doesnt prove anything.

Case and point. And here I thought I would have to waste words to explain it.

Congrats posting people. I was afraid for a moment that THG went totally barmy.

Be ashamed Mac lover article poster. Fair and unbiased review my rear end. And since your almighty OS is incompatible as they come, I wouldn’t use it even if it was more free than UBUNTU; but than it’s not more free, now is it? And as for the lovely lookiness, ever heard of “window blinds”? http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/

Check it out and let me know when Kitty OS gets anywhere near looking that good. Lets drop compatible and stable for the sake of argument here. Also lets forget that you need specifically written programs for the OS, that in quantity and quality makes it more like a console that uses PC hardware, but not exactly a console.

I see no point to your obvious Mac-fanboyism, though I'm sure you'd argue there is a point and that you are not a Mac fanboy.

You attempt to argue Mac's are similarly priced to PC's. You then say Mac charges a premium.

BTW a Mac is a PC! PC = Personal Computer.
Mac is a brand name, so is Dell, HP, Alienware, Voodoo... These are all personal computers.

I’ll just stop talking now. I think, nothing more needs to be said.
 
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Tuan, can you explain to us why for the MacPro counterpart you have choosen a 1000W power supply that cost $320?
Are you aware that for that hardware configuration a $50 400W PSU is more then enough?
 

origosis

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Now Comparing Mac to a Hyundai in my mind is not an insult. Hyundai has shown great prestige in the auto industry. they came up out of the water a few years ago just like mac with an all new look. there are more then EVER out on the market. Just like Mac. They have surpassed most other auto makers in quality BMW included. and are now sold at a modest price. They have thier Budget model Accent = Mac Mini. Thier Sexy Top Seller Elantra = iMac. They have a few high priced items Azera, Veracruz, Tiburon aka Macbook Pro, Mac Server, Air. And both brands are LOVED to no end by most that own them, and questioned and stared at by those that don't... BTW Dell = Chevy You can get an Aveo for way less then a hyundai or get a Camaro for WAY more then a Hyundai.
Yes I am a KIA fanboy (P.S. Hyundai = KIA)
 
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