The best pop production ever?

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>From: mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti)
>Date: 5/6/2004 7:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <j8smc.30369$Ia6.4917336@attbi_s03>
>
>s888wheel@aol.com (S888Wheel) wrote in message
>news:<c7bvec01kb0@news2.newsguy.com>...
>
>> Yes is my all time favorite band and I think arguably the most talented
>band to
>> ever exist in the rock genre.
>
>Are you familiar with the Italian prog groups?

Of course.


Banco del Mutuo
>Soccorso and Premiata Forneria Marconi easily better anything that Yes
>ever did.


An opinion I do not share. I think Yes is miles ahead of them.


Banco is still recording. Their singer, Franceso diGiacomo
>(aka 'Mr Chubbs'), is superb, with a voice that Luciano Pavarotti
>would kill for.

It is nice to see some of the old prog groups hanging in there.

Their keyboardists, Vittorio Nocenzi and Gianni
>Nocenzi, and various guitarists and percussionists over the years have
>produced stunning, original work. There were numerous other Italian
>prog groups that appeared in the early 70's, including Balletto di
>Bronzo, that recorded one or two gems and then disappeared.
>
>http://www.bancodelmutuosoccorso.it/
>
>http://www.pfmpfm.it/
>

I liked the Italian prog movement of that time but I didn't love it. IMO
England was where the best prog was being created. I think the Beatles
influence was most positive there. Those guys were all hanging out together
back then feeding off of each other. It's the sort of thing that raises the
game for all the players. I think it is a major factor in what is missing in a
lot of todays popular music. Artists need to hang out with each other.

 

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> It baffles me that Yes has not even been considered for the Rock and Roll hall
> of fame.

This has been hashed over on the Yes newsgroup. The fact is that the
gatekeepers of the R&R Hall of Fame do not appreciate progressive rock,
and have made these feelings known on occasion in direct remarks. Yes
*is always* considered for induction into the Hall of Fame, *every year*
for the past many years they have been a major point of contention there
as an important nominee. But like I said in my other post about the
Grammys, organizationally sponsored accolades reflect first and foremost
what the organization wishes to be so, and those powers that be don't
like progressive rock and wish it had never existed.

-Sean

 

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"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
news:vjemc.38594$I%1.2474129@attbi_s51...
> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:c7alht02tov@news4.newsguy.com...
>
> >
> > This was the Tympani IIIa system, which became The Abso!ute Sound's
first
> > reference system. The following is a succinct description from Vol 2,
> > Number 5, page 19-20:
> >
> > "It is a very large speaker system that consists of, all told, 8
six-foot
> > high panels (less than one-inch thick). Each of the panels is
> approximately
> > 16-inches wide. two panels (tweeters); two panels (midrange(; four
panels
> > (low bass). It requires no imagination whatsoever to perceive that a
> set-up
> > like this will absolute(sic) dominate, if not engulf, the ordinary
> listening
> > room."
> >
> > "The most effective arrangement: using the tweeter-mid/range panels up
> > front, with the four bass panels placed several feet back of the two
> > out-rigger panels, in back and dead center. To prevent excessive bass
> > cancellation, I (Harry Pearson - HL) angled the outside bass panels (on
> > either side) slightly back.
> >
> > This system was eventually replaced by the Infinity Servo Static 1a as
the
> > reference system.
> >
> > The big Maggie system was spectacular on orchestral music, since as set
up
> > in the main listening room it was flat into the mid-30's and extended
its
> > airy treble high enough to leave no room for complaint. But to me, it
was
> > the midrange that was so striking (Harry Pearson disagreed with me on
the
> > significance of this, but I still remember the impression it left on me.
> We
> > used Cat Steven's Tea for the Tillerman as a key reference for voice and
> > guitar, and they mid-range dynamics from this record exceeded anything I
> had
> > heard since my dad's JBL corner horn of the early '50's. Response was
> > smooth, and transparent. The large panels seemed to prevent "he is
here"
> > imaging, but except for that fault, it was an exceptional sounding
> speaker.
> > And keep in mind this was within two years of the company's founding
> (again,
> > IIRC). This was in 1974 when Magnapan was still distributed by Audio
> > Research.
> >
> > Just for the record, the remainder of the system: an ADC XLMII in a
> Vestigal
> > Arm, on a Technics SP-10 (later replaced by Linn Sondek with Black Widow
> > Arm), Audio Research SP-3a Preamp and Dual 78 Power Amps (main) plus
> > Ampzilla (bass panels), ARC 1a active crossover, Revox A700 tape deck.
>
> Thanks Harry. I was familiar with the 8-ohm Maggie IIIa from frequent
visits
> to a friend who eventually had them in different rooms after having moved.
I
> myself owned the 4 ohm Magneplanar IIIB for a short while, but that's an
> entirely different (and unhappy) story. The Cat hisself kinda mastered one
> of his albums using Maggies in a well known dealer's showroom and is
storied
> to have worked on his project into the early hours in the morning. One
thing
> I cannot agree with, however, is that the panels prevent "he is here"
> imaging. If anything they put you front row center and far too close, as
> sitting in the front row at your local movieplex. I remember Ralph Hodges
> have written very similar, if not the same, words in Stereo Review when
> reviewing Maggies (model ?). Anyway IMHO whether it be The Tillerman,
Teaser
> and the Firecat, Izitso, Catch Bull at Four, Numbers, or Mona Bone Jakon,
> nothing even comes close (pun intended) to the front-row, lightning fast
> vocal and instrumental transients as do the Cat albums. The CD, SS and the
> newer Maggies magnify the situation even more. Of course sound of this
> variety isn't everyone's cup of "Tea" .
>

Well, I owned Maggies at one time, and have all the Cat Stevens so I guess
that makes us at least partial soulmates as to our musical tastes. My
Maggies (IIa's if I recall) were followed by IMF 50 Monitors, the first box
speaker I felt could compete and which fit better into my growing household
at the time.

 

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> Are you familiar with the Italian prog groups?

I'm not, but I am willing to listen.

Banco del Mutuo
> Soccorso and Premiata Forneria Marconi easily better anything that Yes
> ever did.

Really? So they also produced an 80 minute rock symphony in four
movements (along the lines of Mahler's 9th), and it was better than the
one by Yes? It doesn't look that way from the contents of the
discography on the "Banco" website. I thought Yes were the only prog
band to complete that particular undertaking, but it's true there are
many less popular prog bands that I've not heard.

-Sean

 

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>Remember when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best hard rock/heavy metal album?
>
>Which has WHAT to do with THIS topic of conversation? I dunno. Just thought
>it sounded good... : )
>

They did? When was that, during their prog heyday? I guess not,
because they didn't have a separate Grammy category for hard rock/heavy
metal in the seventies, did they? Still, since Jethro Tull are
typically identified as one of the major prog bands that defined the
movement from its earliest roots, I'd say your little tidbit is very
important to this discussion. I do remember that Yes was nominated
against U2 (the winner) in 1988 for whatever award that was, album of
the year or something, but once again this was too little too late, it
was kind of like Paul Newman's Oscar for The Color of Money.

-Sean

 

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Sean Fvlop <sfvlop@vchicago.edv> wrote in message news:<I6Xmc.1592$iF6.223809@attbi_s02>...
> > Are yov familiar with the Italian prog grovps?
>
> I'm not, bvt I am willing to listen.
>
> Banco del Mvtvo
> > Soccorso and Premiata Forneria Marconi easily better anything that Yes
> > ever did.
>
> Really? So they also prodvced an 80 minvte rock symphony in fovr
> movements (along the lines of Mahler's 9th), and it was better than the
> one by Yes?

Not qvite as long, bvt of covrse, better. See below.

>It doesn't look that way from the contents of the
> discography on the "Banco" website. I thovght Yes were the only prog
> band to complete that particvlar vndertaking, bvt it's trve there are
> many less popvlar prog bands that I've not heard.
>
> -Sean

Listen to 'di Terra', made with the Orchestra dell'Unione Mvsiciti di
Roma / Condvcted by Vittorio Nocenzi

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003P9P/103-9722905-6512614?v=glance

To bvy:
http://www.hicom.net/~dlarson/?src=progarchives&band=BANCO%20DEL%20MUTUO%20SOCCORSO

"Not only is Banco one of the greatest progressive rock bands from
Italy, they're as good as it gets, regardless of covntry!"

From:
http://www.aeonmvsic.com/aeon-cd-b.html

See also:
http://www.italianprog.com/a_banco.htm

 

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Sean Fulop <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > Are you familiar with the Italian prog groups?

> I'm not, but I am willing to listen.

> Banco del Mutuo
> > Soccorso and Premiata Forneria Marconi easily better anything that Yes
> > ever did.

> Really? So they also produced an 80 minute rock symphony in four
> movements (along the lines of Mahler's 9th), and it was better than the
> one by Yes? It doesn't look that way from the contents of the
> discography on the "Banco" website. I thought Yes were the only prog
> band to complete that particular undertaking, but it's true there are
> many less popular prog bands that I've not heard.

Tangerin Dream put out a four sides/four tracks opus called Zeit
a year or two before Yes did.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

 

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From: Sean Fulop sfulop@uchicago.edu
>Date: 5/8/2004 6:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <c7ip4h0pgh@news2.newsguy.com>
>
>>Remember when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best hard rock/heavy metal album?
>>
>>Which has WHAT to do with THIS topic of conversation? I dunno. Just
>thought
>>it sounded good... : )
>>
>
>They did? When was that, during their prog heyday? I guess not,
>because they didn't have a separate Grammy category for hard rock/heavy
>metal in the seventies, did they? Still, since Jethro Tull are
>typically identified as one of the major prog bands that defined the
>movement from its earliest roots, I'd say your little tidbit is very
>important to this discussion. I do remember that Yes was nominated
>against U2 (the winner) in 1988 for whatever award that was, album of
>the year or something, but once again this was too little too late, it
>was kind of like Paul Newman's Oscar for The Color of Money.
>
>-Sean
>

Jethro Tull picked up the first Grammy ever for the catagory of heavy metal.
neddless to say, Ian Anderson made fun of the fact that they were not a heavy
metal band in his acceptance speech. Yes were nominated for two Grammys for
90125, one of their least progressive and most commercially successful albums.
They lost for best vocal arrangement for the song Leave it and they won
(miracle of miracles) for best instrumental arrangement for the song Cinema.
When one considers the instrumental arrangements on songs such as Close to the
Edge, And You and I, South Side of the Sky, Awaken, Sound Chaser , Gates of
Delerium etc. etc. one has to kind of laugh at Cinema being the song that got
them this Grammy.

 

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S888Wheel <s888wheel@aol.com> wrote:
> From: Sean Fulop sfulop@uchicago.edu
> >Date: 5/8/2004 6:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <c7ip4h0pgh@news2.newsguy.com>
> >
> >>Remember when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best hard rock/heavy metal album?
> >>
> >>Which has WHAT to do with THIS topic of conversation? I dunno. Just
> >thought
> >>it sounded good... : )
> >>
> >
> >They did? When was that, during their prog heyday? I guess not,
> >because they didn't have a separate Grammy category for hard rock/heavy
> >metal in the seventies, did they? Still, since Jethro Tull are
> >typically identified as one of the major prog bands that defined the
> >movement from its earliest roots, I'd say your little tidbit is very
> >important to this discussion. I do remember that Yes was nominated
> >against U2 (the winner) in 1988 for whatever award that was, album of
> >the year or something, but once again this was too little too late, it
> >was kind of like Paul Newman's Oscar for The Color of Money.
> >
> >-Sean
> >

> Jethro Tull picked up the first Grammy ever for the catagory of heavy metal.

Hard rock/heavy metal, actually....and Tull at least arguably had some
classic material that fit the first category.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

 

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Sean Fulop <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >Remember when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best hard rock/heavy metal album?
> >
> >Which has WHAT to do with THIS topic of conversation? I dunno. Just thought
> >it sounded good... : )
> >

> They did? When was that, during their prog heyday?

Nope, years after, in the 80's.


--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

 

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nousaine@aol.com (Nousaine) wrote in message news:<c795n701gg3@news2.newsguy.com>...
> "Harry Lavo" harry.lavo@rcn.com wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
> >news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
> >> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
> >> news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
> >> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on a
> >> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra vinyl)
> and
> >> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
> >> >
> >> There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
> period,
> >> written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
> >> dress off of anything by Judy.
> >>
> >I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at The
> >Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).
> >
> >However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
> >recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at their
> >task...at their peak...this is my nominee.
>
> My candidate is K. D. Lang's "Ingenue" which I guess would be classified as the
> combination of the talents of a bunch of people of which all except one were
> unknown to the general public.

I have that same opinion of "Ingenue." Throwing some irons into the
fire other than those I mentioned on another thread here, I'd include
the following Dire Straits albums released prior to their big
commercial hit "Money For Nothing."

These include their first album, "Dire Straits", the third, "Making
Movies", and the fourth, "Love Over Gold."

I think Love Over Gold was once mentioned in a Stereophile R2D4 list.
It is sonically the most spectacular IMO. As a bit of trivia, Eric
Clapton said on a BBC broadcast that his favorite guitar solo was Mark
Knopfler's at the end of the "Telegraph Road" cut. A true "must hear."

The other albums are not as spectacular sonically but are superb in
arrangements (especially lyrics on Making Movies) and performance IMO.

One more sleeper: Rod Stewart's "Smiler." Not that great sonically in
a hi-fi sense, but good enough in a raw sort of way, and what a band!
Listen to the way those guys are playing. I love all the acoustic
strings and horns.

At audio stores I managed, we always included that album for it's
musical content (despite it's mediocre fidelity) during critical
listening sessions. Which is at it should be : )

 

[chung]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Harry Lavo wrote:
>
>
> "Send in the Clowns" was well up in the top ten if not at the top -- from
> this album -- in the pop category and all over the airways. If that doesn't
> make it "pop" I don't know what does. Not to mention that she won the "best
> pop female" (IIRC) Grammy for it.

Using your definition of pop, Joan Baez's pop album "Diamond and Rust"
from 1975 easily beat Ms. Collins' "Send in the Clowns", IMNSHO. Ms.
Baez's crystal-clear, haunting voice made Ms. Collins seem like a
colorless, average singer, which she probably was . In terms of
emotional impact, there is just no comparison between the two title songs.

 

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Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> wrote in message news:<c7jslg029ur@news2.newsguy.com>...
> Sean Fulop <sfulop@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > >Remember when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best hard rock/heavy metal album?
> > >
> > >Which has WHAT to do with THIS topic of conversation? I dunno. Just thought
> > >it sounded good... : )
> > >
>
> > They did? When was that, during their prog heyday?
>
> Nope, years after, in the 80's.

They did, yes, but in the 90's, with their "Rock Island" album

 

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>They did, yes, but in the 90's, with their "Rock Island" album

Actually, it was at the 1988 Grammy Awards. And the album was "Crest of a
Knave"(1987), not "Rock Island"(1989).

 

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"chung" <chunglau@covad.net> wrote in message
news:irznc.1140$UQ.134373@attbi_s51...
> Harry Lavo wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Send in the Clowns" was well up in the top ten if not at the top --
from
> > this album -- in the pop category and all over the airways. If that
doesn't
> > make it "pop" I don't know what does. Not to mention that she won the
"best
> > pop female" (IIRC) Grammy for it.
>
> Using your definition of pop, Joan Baez's pop album "Diamond and Rust"
> from 1975 easily beat Ms. Collins' "Send in the Clowns", IMNSHO. Ms.
> Baez's crystal-clear, haunting voice made Ms. Collins seem like a
> colorless, average singer, which she probably was . In terms of
> emotional impact, there is just no comparison between the two title songs.
>

I can't really argue against this...it is one of my favorite albums and I
own both original vinyl and Redbook versions. From a production value
standpoint, it is still very much "folkie" in its simplicity...less
"pop"..although extremely well done. Wheras "Judith" gets the full "pop"
treatment of the era and has a very eclectic group of songs, which is why I
give it the nod as combining all the "best" elements of the era. Plus it
also met the test of popular success. But certainly nothing against Joan's
very best album (IMO...and I own a dozen).

 

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steelsun241@yahoo.com (dansteel) wrote:

>nousaine@aol.com (Nousaine) wrote in message
>news:<c795n701gg3@news2.newsguy.com>...
>> "Harry Lavo" harry.lavo@rcn.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
>> >news:KwAlc.17666$IG1.651359@attbi_s04...
>> >> "Harry Lavo" <harry.lavo@rcn.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:fezlc.25196$I%1.1681822@attbi_s51...
>> >> > Was putting a repaired phono headamp back in my system and got off on
>a
>> >> > listening kick to Judy Collin's "Judith" album from 1975 (Electra
>vinyl)
>> and
>> >> > 1992 (?) (Electra HDCD).
>> >> >
>> >> There are more than a fist full of Cat Stevens albums from the same
>> period,
>> >> written, sung and some mastered in part by Yusaf himself that knock the
>> >> dress off of anything by Judy.
>> >>
>> >I've got all of them. We used them as voice and guitar references at The
>> >Abso!ute Sound (should have heard them on the big Maggie system).
>> >
>> >However, for overall pinnacle of song selection, arrangement,
>> >recording...simply the combined talents of lots of the most gifted at
>their
>> >task...at their peak...this is my nominee.
>>
>> My candidate is K. D. Lang's "Ingenue" which I guess would be classified as
>the
>> combination of the talents of a bunch of people of which all except one
>were
>> unknown to the general public.
>
>I have that same opinion of "Ingenue." Throwing some irons into the
>fire other than those I mentioned on another thread here, I'd include
>the following Dire Straits albums released prior to their big
>commercial hit "Money For Nothing."
>
>These include their first album, "Dire Straits", the third, "Making
>Movies", and the fourth, "Love Over Gold."

Agreed about Dire Straits. The other two just didn't capture me as strongly.

>
>I think Love Over Gold was once mentioned in a Stereophile R2D4 list.
>It is sonically the most spectacular IMO. As a bit of trivia, Eric
>Clapton said on a BBC broadcast that his favorite guitar solo was Mark
>Knopfler's at the end of the "Telegraph Road" cut. A true "must hear."
>
>The other albums are not as spectacular sonically but are superb in
>arrangements (especially lyrics on Making Movies) and performance IMO.
>
>One more sleeper: Rod Stewart's "Smiler." Not that great sonically in
>a hi-fi sense, but good enough in a raw sort of way, and what a band!
>Listen to the way those guys are playing. I love all the acoustic
>strings and horns.

I'm becoming of ther opinion that the songs may be perhaps the most important
underlying theme. For example I heard a rap version of "Killing Me Softly" the
other day and realized that the song was so strong that it was captivating in
nearly any venue/style/genre.

Rod Stewart's name brought me back to his wonderful "The First Cut Is The
Deepest" which is getting all kinds of exposure by Sheryl Crow these days. To
me the tune is so good it's hard for a good artist NOT to grab you with it.
(Cat Stevens tune BTW.)

Same with "Diamonds and Rust." Timeless tunes.

>At audio stores I managed, we always included that album for it's
>musical content (despite it's mediocre fidelity) during critical
>listening sessions. Which is at it should be : )

This is why I always bring my own 'audio obstacle course' cd-r with me
There is some material that captures your soul no matter what system reproduces
it.

 

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>From: nousaine@aol.com (Nousaine)
>Date: 5/13/2004 8:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <c81ems028ul@news2.newsguy.com>

>
>Rod Stewart's name brought me back to his wonderful "The First Cut Is The
>Deepest" which is getting all kinds of exposure by Sheryl Crow these days. To
>me the tune is so good it's hard for a good artist NOT to grab you with it.
>(Cat Stevens tune BTW.)
>

IMO the Cat Stevens version is far and away the best. This is from an era in
his career that many Americans don't even know exist. Cat Stevens was first a
Brittish invasion teen pop star that simply never really invaded. "I Love my
Dog" is IMO a great song that stands up to just about anything else from the
Brittish invasion.

 

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Resolving the "most talented band to ever exist in the rock genre" is
not an answerable question, IMHO. Yes had tremendous talent, I never
cared for that genre of music, and I'm not a Yes fan, but that does
not prevent me from recognizing some brilliance in their music.

There's a great deal of subjectivity to this discussion. I submit
there are several (many?) muscians/songwriters/composers that fall
within the rock genre that we would be hard-pressed to order based
on talent. I love blues, but in my experience most Yes fans would
gag when listening to the recordings of Robert Johnson.

Knofler's been mentioned. One of my all time favorites - a genius.
Jeff Beck - "Blow by Blow" - can this be beat?

The list goes on.

Loving this thread...

/jim

> Yes is my all time favorite band and I think arguably the most talented band to
> ever exist in the rock genre. However I don't think they were the most
> influencial band of the last 30 years. I think I would have to say bands like
> Nirvana and U2 had a much greater influence on other artists and on the public.
> It baffles me that Yes has not even been considered for the Rock and Roll hall
> of fame. And for those who still have a chance i highly recomend seeing them on
> their current tour. It's one of their best I have ever seen in 26 years. P.S.
> That would just about all of them in the past 26 years.

 

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From: Jim Mauro james.mauro@verizon.net
>Date: 5/30/2004 9:36 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <A4ouc.25164$Ly.659@attbi_s01>
>
>Resolving the "most talented band to ever exist in the rock genre" is
>not an answerable question, IMHO. Yes had tremendous talent, I never
>cared for that genre of music, and I'm not a Yes fan, but that does
>not prevent me from recognizing some brilliance in their music.
>
>There's a great deal of subjectivity to this discussion. I submit
>there are several (many?) muscians/songwriters/composers that fall
>within the rock genre that we would be hard-pressed to order based
>on talent. I love blues, but in my experience most Yes fans would
>gag when listening to the recordings of Robert Johnson.
>
>Knofler's been mentioned. One of my all time favorites - a genius.
>Jeff Beck - "Blow by Blow" - can this be beat?
>

Certianly so. But how many bands have as many people from their band in this
league?

>The list goes on.
>
>Loving this thread...
>
>/jim
>
>> Yes is my all time favorite band and I think arguably the most talented
>band to
>> ever exist in the rock genre. However I don't think they were the most
>> influencial band of the last 30 years. I think I would have to say bands
>like
>> Nirvana and U2 had a much greater influence on other artists and on the
>public.
>> It baffles me that Yes has not even been considered for the Rock and Roll
>hall
>> of fame. And for those who still have a chance i highly recomend seeing
>them on
>> their current tour. It's one of their best I have ever seen in 26 years.
>P.S.
>> That would just about all of them in the past 26 years.
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