There's something I want done, but I don't have any solutions as to ho

[wanamingo]

So how would pro-gun owners lower the amount of gun deaths?

According to politifact there are around 100,000 gun deaths each year, you remove suicide and you are still left with ~86,000 people killed by guns each year in the United States.

which is like 225 people every day. So it is a problem that needs to be addressed. The status quo isnt working.

 

[wanamingo]

Oops sorry that 100,000 people get SHOT every year.

I think I made an error when I carried the 5 and then divided by -0.

 

[riser]

So how would pro-gun owners lower the amount of gun deaths?

According to politifact there are around 100,000 gun deaths each year, you remove suicide and you are still left with ~86,000 people killed by guns each year in the United States.

which is like 225 people every day. So it is a problem that needs to be addressed. The status quo isnt working.

You read the numbers wrong. They do a statistic per 100,000 people. There are around 30,000 deaths per year, over half of which tend to be suicides. Less than 1000 per year in personal defense.

Citing the latest numbers I found from 2008:

9500 gun related deaths in the US.
3500 violence related deaths (stabbing, blunt objects, stranglation)

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

Whereas the UK lists 60,000 stabbings a year, or 160 a day by the math provided in another article.

I think this simply proves that it comes down to the person, not the device.

 

[riser]

I figured someone would have responded to my comment about the suicide attempt at the range...

 

[musical marv]

+1 for monster.

Take Chicago this year. The most restrictive gun laws in the country yet 274 people have been shot and killed so far this year in a city where owning a handgun is already illegal.

What is the answer than?

 

[Reynod]

Looking at restricting or banning guns because of this.. well, how many people didn't carry, legally, into that theater because they were worried about breaking the law?

By restricting where guns can go, you open the path to a gun free zone where criminals will target.

I do not understand how restricting firearms, even banning them, will resolve the issue. It will not.

Now, look to Switzerland where everyone has a firearm and is trained in it. You'd think they would have massive shootings. They don't.

The Swiss are much more culturally mature than Americans ?.

I think it is all about the cultural norms that your exposed to while growing up.

Take for instance the view that many of you have regarding home invasions ... you have almost all stated that you would shoot first and ask questions later if your heard loud noises at night and thought someone was breaking in.

Here would probably open the door and give that drunken relative a last beer and just put them to bed ... or yell at the guy and tell him he staggered into the wrong home on his way back from the pub.

Like the Canadians we tend to have a much more relaxed view where in the US you tend to be highly suspicious and paranoid about anything you perceive as impinging upon your personal liberty or free will.

This I find hard to understand as from my perspective the US looks like a free for all 24/7 circus where the performers are shooting kids in the crowd while doing acrobatics on the high wire ... and the lions and the bears are roaming freely through the crowd ... taking bites out of the audience as well.

From where I stand you have so much free will this has caused the country to fall into chaos on so many levels.

You also have some of the best things there too ... but the balance is askew.

The obsession in the US about individual success being more important than community values is at the heart of the matter.

 

[Reynod]

The NRA is not some faceless entity wielding an invisible hand of power. It is made up of 4.5 million law abiding Americans. We pool our resources in the interest of protecting our God given rights. It is the oldest civil rights organization in America.

The idea of passing any sort of restrictions on law abiding citizens will prevent criminal nutjob type behavior is asinine.

By definition, criminals don't obey laws and restrictions.

So when do the vigilante NRA goon squad plan to start targetting the criminals by driving around in pickups and shooting at them?

It isn't a civil rights group unless it has some kind of positive role to play in society ... frankly they must be viewed in the same light as the fringe religious cults in the absence of any positive outcomes they seem to lack?

 

[Reynod]

Sometimes, there is no answer. It's the human condition. Population control? Is that the answer? A controlled Brave New World?

Aldous Huxley would agree with you.

Only China currently has the ability to impose "Newspeak" through its control on the internetz and other media (television / papers) and that term was coined by George Orwell in the book 1984 ... probably more of interest to this discussion from my perspective than Huxley.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Take people that didnt want to be hemmed in, take people with a make or break it mentality, take people whod rather shoot their governing body, but were kept too poor or werent allowed guns,take people who left their families into a brave new world, thats Americans.
Obviously not all Americans feel this way, but mostly this is who we were.
Society has softened such things, but as a whole, between traditions and that same spirit, it remains largely an American way of life.
It is then therefore no surprise to me to see such things going on, tho it has been handled poorly.
Some are mad that we build more prisons, and act as if it were a money scheme, and those are folks that dont own guns for the most part, as for the gun owners, throw em in n lock em up

 

[Reynod]

Hey don't spin me that line JD and expect me to nod and agree.

We were settled by convicts, miners and immigrants ... though 200 years later history rewrote the Aboriginal people back into the script ... better late than never I guess.

The US therefore has no advantage in terms of mongrel pedigree than we do ...
that arguement just doesn't stand up.

Locking up more people won't help either.

P.S. Don't drive in the back of a pickup truck in Texas ... or go to the movies.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Were they escaping in the same era?
Were there many Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Finns, Irish, English, Scots, Italians and Jews?
All together yet apart?
Leaving for the same reasons?
Was the land ready to plant and go?
Was there water readily available?
Animals for an easy hunt?
Or, was it more specialized?
People came with a purpose, other than to be free of their old countries?
Were there over 500 tribes, all differing of natives?

 

[4Ryan6]

I was at the shooting range 3 weeks ago. The guy next to me decided to take his life and used a .44 magnum he had rented. I was standing five feet from him when he did it. Too bad he looked up too much and the bullet went from under his chin up and out through his nose.

When he fell down with the gaping hole in his face, I looked at him and figured I couldn't help him. I went up front to the office and told them what happened. At first I thought the guy was dead because he was convulsing. Instead, the shock from shot messed him up pretty good.

Dude what an experience to witness!

I'm at a loss for words riser! Ry

 

[riser]

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jul/02/man-shoots-self-in-face-at-coal-creek-armory/?comments_id=2262724

That's the write up in it. I had to give 2.5 hours of written and recorded speeches, answer what firearms I was shooting and the whole scenario as I saw it. After about 2 hours they finally reviewed the range footage and let us go. I was the only person who really saw anything.

I could have stuck three fingers side by side into the gaping hole in his face. At first I thought the gun had recoiled and hit him in the face.. but after half a second I realiezd he shot himself. I thought he was dead.. doing his death throes and all but it had to take some brain damage from that shock.

He was having issues with his wife and his mother in law.. Now he's going to be a mute, considered mentally unstable, and still have to deal with the wife and inlaws. If you're going to do it, do it right with a shotgun.

I was close enough that if he put his arm out and I put my arm out, we'd be touching each other. I dislike going to the range alone.. what bothered me the most is that I had just shot the last of my rounds in my firearm. It was sitting there ready to be reloaded when he did it. He could have easily turned and shot someone else first. Three seconds earlier I was walking behind him from a trash can tossing a target and empty box.

 

[riser]

The Swiss are much more culturally mature than Americans ?.

I think it is all about the cultural norms that your exposed to while growing up.

Take for instance the view that many of you have regarding home invasions ... you have almost all stated that you would shoot first and ask questions later if your heard loud noises at night and thought someone was breaking in.

Here would probably open the door and give that drunken relative a last beer and just put them to bed ... or yell at the guy and tell him he staggered into the wrong home on his way back from the pub.

Like the Canadians we tend to have a much more relaxed view where in the US you tend to be highly suspicious and paranoid about anything you perceive as impinging upon your personal liberty or free will.

This I find hard to understand as from my perspective the US looks like a free for all 24/7 circus where the performers are shooting kids in the crowd while doing acrobatics on the high wire ... and the lions and the bears are roaming freely through the crowd ... taking bites out of the audience as well.

From where I stand you have so much free will this has caused the country to fall into chaos on so many levels.

You also have some of the best things there too ... but the balance is askew.

The obsession in the US about individual success being more important than community values is at the heart of the matter.

Many states have the Castle Law or Doctine. If someone breaks INTO your home, you have the right to shoot them. Now, at some point you realize someone is breaking in. You should also take into consideration family members or others before shooting. You should be aware of these.

For myself, I'm well built and bigger. I'm near 6' and 240lbs. Me shooting right away would draw a red flag if the person was not in the home. If my recent ex, 5'7 and 120lbs fired the shots, they wouldn't think twice. It is all relative to how much in danger you are. She could shoot someone beating on the door and probably be fine. I could not. Now, if someone is in the house and I'm not expecting anyone, you have the right to shoot first. Someone invading your domain.. you have the right to attack. Such as walking into a bear's cave or sticking your face in a groundhog hole. Guess what, you're too close, there is a threat perceived, someone's gonna get hurt.

My previous city, Toledo, Ohio, suffers multiple daily shootings and people constantly going to the hospital. Most are non life theatening wounds. I smile when I hear people in Knoxville talk about a shooting. It happens from time to time.. it isn't multiple times a day. I realize how nice it is to live down here as opposed to up north.

People up there didn't have jobs, the only thing they have is "respect" meaning Ego and what people think about them. They'll kill for stupid things, for street cred.. That's their culture. They'll live in shacks or run down apartments, they'll use their EBT card, they'll have nothing.. but they will be the best dressed. That's all they have. Insult them, step on a shoe, and they'll start shooting. You disrespected them, they need to keep that image up.

If you are afraid for your life, shoot. If the person is drunk, it is their fault for losing control and all that. Who knows what a drunk person will/can do.

How many times did someone not shoot, not get their gun, and get murdered? Last year, two young adults were killed in Toledo. Two guys broke in, put garbage bags over this guy's head and his girlfriend's, duct taped it around their neck, tied them up. Left them there until they suffocated. For what? The girl's family were wealthy and the street thugs only knew "rich" people sold drugs.. didn't work. They ransacked the house looking for the drugs they thought the parents were selling. Idiots. That's why we have these laws: the protect the innocent.

 

[chunkymonster]

So how would pro-gun owners lower the amount of gun deaths?

The notion that gun owners are somehow responsible to reduce the number of gun deaths is just ridiculous. Responsible and legal gun owners already do their part to reduce the number of gun deaths by following the law and being responsible gun owners. To imply responsible and legal gun owners should be doing more than that ignores the criminal and evil intentions.

Take for instance the view that many of you have regarding home invasions ... you have almost all stated that you would shoot first and ask questions later if your heard loud noises at night and thought someone was breaking in.

Here would probably open the door and give that drunken relative a last beer and just put them to bed ... or yell at the guy and tell him he staggered into the wrong home on his way back from the pub.

Implying that a gun owner would shoot a relative coming home late from the pub is just ridiculous and intellectually dishonest. While that may be your perception of gun owning Americans, the reality is vastly different.

The folks who stated they would "shoot first and ask later" are hopefully overstating for the sake of discussion but you need to understand that Americans have an inherent right to privacy and protection of property and we hold that right as sacred. Think of it this way, you are sleeping and awakened by the sound of a window being broken or a door being smashed open, you investigate and see someone climbing in the window or walking through your home. It is a reasonable presumption that the person who broke that window or smashed that door is uninvited and unwelcome and has no lawful purpose for being in your home. They are automatically criminals solely by breaking your window and smashing your door open as that is willful destruction of personal property. Given Americans have an inherent right to privacy and protection of property, and given the person willfully destroyed your property, it is also a reasonable presumption that the person intends to do you and your family harm. In this instance, it is reasonable to "shoot first and ask later" rather than wait for the criminal to openly demonstrate their intentions possibly resulting in your or your families injury or death. Most Americans do not live with a victim mentality and most Americans would choose to defend themselves and their family rather than be a victim.

Like the Canadians we tend to have a much more relaxed view where in the US you tend to be highly suspicious and paranoid about anything you perceive as impinging upon your personal liberty or free will.

Of course Americans are highly suspicious and paranoid about anything that infringes our personal liberty. Given that America was based on the tenets of freedom, liberty, and the uninhibited pursuit thereof; personal liberty and freedom is something to to be held sacred and closely guarded from anyone or anything that seeks to take that away. I'm sure that if the Australian or Canadian Constitutions were written as documents that limited the powers of government instead of documents that give power to the government to grant rights to the people, your perspective and opinion of American culture would be very different.

This I find hard to understand as from my perspective the US looks like a free for all 24/7 circus where the performers are shooting kids in the crowd while doing acrobatics on the high wire ... and the lions and the bears are roaming freely through the crowd ... taking bites out of the audience as well.

From where I stand you have so much free will this has caused the country to fall into chaos on so many levels.

On some levels America is a free for all. But not a wild west free for all with people running around with a six-gun strapped to their leg dispensing vigilantly justice on a whim. America is a free for all in the sense that the individual is free to pursue their personal interests uninhibited by government and limited only by the laws the people choose to govern themselves by. America is a free for all in the sense that you can engage in commerce, speak, worship, and otherwise conduct yourself in any manner so long that does not infringe on the rights of other Americans to do the same. The notion that Americans have too much free will or freedom is a point of view only seen from someone who grew up in a society and culture or with the belief that government grants the people their rights, that government mandates responsibility, and where government controls most aspects of that society and culture.

The obsession in the US about individual success being more important than community values is at the heart of the matter.

This line of thinking is also at the heart of socialism and is a tremendous misperception of America on your part. Take team sports for example; there may be one or two players that individually achieve more than other players on the team, but the fact remains they are part of a team and their individual success is celebrated by the entire team. If anything, it is individual success that builds a community and it is the individual successes of each member within the community that makes the community stronger. Do not think for a moment just because Americans strive for individual achievement that it in any way subjugates the community as a whole. Just go into any given neighborhood in any major U.S. city; you can not tell someone living in Manhattan that there is no sense on community, you can not go into Hoboken and tell them they is no sense of community, you can not go into Houston and tell them they have no sense of community, and I defy you to walk into Aurora Colorado and tell them they have no sense of community.

 

[wanamingo]

The notion that gun owners are somehow responsible to reduce the number of gun deaths is just ridiculous. Responsible and legal gun owners already do their part to reduce the number of gun deaths by following the law and being responsible gun owners. To imply responsible and legal gun owners should be doing more than that ignores the criminal and evil intentions.

Im not asking what gun owners would do to lower gun deaths lol. Im asking whats the solution? How can a gun owning society be safe if any unhinged individual can go and get guns and ammo quickly and without a background check? I know you talk about NJ, but Im not in NJ and evidently CO has very lax laws concerning buying a gun. I was with a cousin a few months ago who went into a gun shop and walked out with a 38 special.

Did you know that we have almost the same amount of gun murders as Mexico?

Anectdotally I had a friend fall asleep drunk in a car during a Vermont winter after a party. A while later he realized he was freezing and went to go back inside the house. In his drunken stupor he went to the house next door and broke through the front door (I think he was just blackout drunk and confused, no one is still sure why he broke the door trying to get in), broke the lock off trying to get in. Once inside he vomited all over his clothes stripped down (Completely naked) and went to sleep on the couch. The owner called the cops and went to go confront the stranger in his living room. After freaking out he ran out the back door (Destroying the door and the locks) and was captured by police naked during winter in the backyard of a strangers house.

No charges or anything he just had to pay for damages, it would have been a different story if someone shot him.....

 

[4Ryan6]

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jul/02/man-shoots-self-in-face-at-coal-creek-armory/?comments_id=2262724

That's the write up in it. I had to give 2.5 hours of written and recorded speeches, answer what firearms I was shooting and the whole scenario as I saw it. After about 2 hours they finally reviewed the range footage and let us go. I was the only person who really saw anything.

I could have stuck three fingers side by side into the gaping hole in his face. At first I thought the gun had recoiled and hit him in the face.. but after half a second I realiezd he shot himself. I thought he was dead.. doing his death throes and all but it had to take some brain damage from that shock.

He was having issues with his wife and his mother in law.. Now he's going to be a mute, considered mentally unstable, and still have to deal with the wife and inlaws. If you're going to do it, do it right with a shotgun.

I was close enough that if he put his arm out and I put my arm out, we'd be touching each other. I dislike going to the range alone.. what bothered me the most is that I had just shot the last of my rounds in my firearm. It was sitting there ready to be reloaded when he did it. He could have easily turned and shot someone else first. Three seconds earlier I was walking behind him from a trash can tossing a target and empty box.

Have you had any nightmares or dreams about it yet?

Seems like it would be something that would long term bother you.

I had to identify one of my friends in the morgue once, the coroner said, "Are you ready? I said Yes." and he pulled back the sheet and I looked at the slab of meat on the table, because that's all she was at that point as there was no life present in her body, and I wasn't ready for what I saw!

My mind took a mental snapshot, and I saw that image in my mind thousands of times, played over and over.

So this guy is still alive, but what kind of life is before him?

 

[riser]

No nightmares at all. I lack empathy for others, especially when I don't know them.

About four days after it happened, a girl at my apartment asked me how I was sleeping. I gave her a weird look and said fine.. not even putting to two together. It took me a minute to even remember what had happened earlier.

In all honesty, I stopped counting how many of my friends died growing up. The first committed suicide in 6th grade. I'm now just over 30 years old and I can count past 20 friends who have died from disease, suicide, murders, and accidents. In the recent storms that hit the midwest, one of my friends from high school who I haven't talked to since the late 90s was killed when a tree fell on his car as he was driving. That was what.. two weeks ago? Life is short.

 

[Reynod]

I think every gun nut should be forced to see what riser has experienced ... might put some of them off their obsession with death.

If you want to dance with the tiger prepared to get bitten or clawed.

 

[musical marv]

Dude what an experience to witness!

I'm at a loss for words riser! Ry

The wrong people have guns today which has to be stopped right away.This is one prime example you quote.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I think they should ban presctiptions, they kill more than anything
Wait, then we need to regulate prescriptions
Wait, we need tighter regulations on prescriptions
Wait, its those other people who insist on having their prescriptions thats the proble
Its the AMA's fault
Ruining and running the country
Damn privateers

 

[4Ryan6]

The wrong people have guns today which has to be stopped right away.This is one prime example you quote.

With all due respect Marv, How do you think that could be accomplished?

Criminals do not get their weapons through legal channels in the first place?

Legal gun owners that loose their minds either temporarily or permanent are not predictable events?

So how do you propose it be accomplished?

Do you realize how much money is invested in guns across the entire United States, and just how many guns we're actually talking about here?

I live out in the country 30 minute response time from the nearest Police facility, I have a Baby Desert Eagle 45ACP within hand reach at this very minute, anyone kicking in my front or rear door is not coming in my house to have tea and crumpets, but they'll be leaving in a body bag.

The weapons I have are for the defense of my home and family, I am not a hunter and never bought any of my weapons for hunting they are for home defense, I don't want to have to live with shooting someone, but if they enter my home, thanks to Uncle Sam's training I will not miss my target.

I live in an area that gangs have broken into innocent peoples homes and shot and killed the home owners, do you really think I would allow that in my own home, would you?

 

[jsc]

It's obvious you do not live in New Jersey.

On the other hand, there is Vermont:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont

Yet you do not hear of mass shootings from there. Maybe, like the Swiss, Vermonters are just more highly evolved.

Another observation - the AR15 is not an assault rifle. Assault rifles are automatic weapons.

Yet another observation - The U.S. military does not use drum magazines. They are very unreliable.

 

[wanamingo]

Liberal logic 101

Banning clawed hammers will stop crazy people from killing people with clawed hammers.

With all due respect killing 12 people and injuring 58 with only a clawed hammer would be impressive. You cant accidentally overstab someone smash through 3 walls and kill the neighbor down the street.

On the other hand, there is Vermont:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont

Yet you do not hear of mass shootings from there. Maybe, like the Swiss, Vermonters are just more highly evolved.

Vermont and most New England states arent densely populated enough to cause any trouble. We have the second lowest gun homicide rate besides NH, and per capita we own more guns than Texas. My feeling is if there were problems with the system the state would fix it, gun violence is low there is currently no reason to change anything. Or maybe its all the pot smoking liberals........Or our socialist senator, who was actually at capital hill yesterday trying to strike down citizens united lol.

Either way if other states (Or countries, essentially) have problems with guns they need to change something or identify the problem.

 

[wanamingo]

It's a people and cultural problem, not an inanimate object problem. Banning an inanimate object will not change a peoples' or person's behavior.

No but putting child safety locks on the knife drawer keeps kids alive until they know better than trying to "shave" with a steak knife because they "saw it in a movie".

Im not sure what would have worked for CO, but whatever laws are in effect over there did not protect those people.