Tripp-Lite isobar Surge Protector Tear-Down

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Figure is clear and obvious. 8000 volts inside a TV is created by a deestructive current from the plug-in protector.

You clearly do not understand what the diagram is about. Remove the surge protector from the diagram and you still have a 10kV difference between the coax grounding block and the building's electrical ground. The surge between coax and electrical ground has nothing to do with the surge protector in that diagram.

 

[westom]

. Remove the surge protector from the diagram and you still have a 10kV difference between the coax grounding block and the building's electrical ground.

Do you read what was posted repeatedly? Why remain attached to misguided beliefs? Repeating it again: that coax ground block must be at the earth ground. Voltage exists (increases) with each foot of wire between the two. It is not that hard. Why do you ignore that? Why do you also ignore the question that says you do not know this stuff? Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Protection is always about a **low impedance** connection to single point earth ground. So you remain intransigent: protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. **Low impedance** means basic electrical concepts such as "less than 10 feet". Then no 10,000 volts exists - without or without a protector.

The figure is bluntly clear to anyone who wants to learn. If that surge is not earthed BEFORE entering a building, a plug-in protector may earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via the nearby TV (a TV not even connected to the protector). Without 'whole house' protection, protectors such as the Isobar can make damage easier. But then we did this stuff professionally even decades ago. You have difficulty even with 1st semester electrical concepts such as longitudinal mode currents and impedance.

We also traced a surge through a network of powered off computers. A surge bypassed internal protection due to a plug-in protector. That protector did what the IEEE figure also demonstrates. It earthed a surge destructively through multiple networked computers.

Once a surge is inside a building. then nothing will provide effective protection. Not even that Isobar. Protection, even 100 years ago, has always been about earthing a surge BEFORE it enters. After 100 years, some still remain in denial? If 10,000 volts are not inside a building, then a surge is not hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Damage with or without that an Isobar ... that does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. As your posted specification numbers also demonstrate.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ... which an Isobar does not have and that you refuse to learn. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipates. Reality does not change because you refuse to learn it.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipates. Reality does not change because you refuse to learn it.

Except reality is that those "hundreds of thousand of joules" never get very far into the building under normal circumstances even without entrance surge protection while residual surge energy may still cause voltage differences over a thousand volts to appear across live and ground/neutral inside.

Once a surge is inside a building. then nothing will provide effective protection. Not even that Isobar. Protection, even 100 years ago, has always been about earthing a surge BEFORE it enters.

Protection, 100 years ago, did not need to protect low-power semiconductors and low-voltage electronics.

 

[westom]

Protection, 100 years ago, did not need to protect low-power semiconductors and low-voltage electronics.

Another indication that you have no idea how this stuff works. And did not do this stuff. 1950s, Bell System Technical Journal had numerous papers on existing protection systems. Since semiconductors would be replacing relays and switchgear. With some minor exceptions, existing protection systems for protecting old switching hardware was also sufficient for protecting transistors. Because these concepts were even essential for protecting operators with wires attached to their heads. This proven technology was understood even 100 years ago.

That over 100 years proven solution used in every facility today that cannot have damage. Some facilities might even fire an employee for using that Isobar. You would know that and know why had you done this stuff. Or had you bothered to learn concepts described in those 1950s Bell System papers. Or bothered to read what the AT&T forum said about protecting DSL. Or understood why the IEEE brochure shows a power strip protectors earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively threw a nearby TV. Or read your Martzloff paper that said something completely different from what you claimed. Or read what utilities recommend for protecting household appliances. Or bothered to learn other essential concepts such as equipotential and conductivity. Or learned about wire impedance (why 'less than 10 feet' is so essential).

Protection is always about where hundreds of thosuands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Informed homeowners spend about $1 per protected appliance for protection for all types of surges - even direct lightning strikes. For protection you claim cannot be done. You do not even understand basic electrical concepts such as current source and longitudinal mode. Or the most important component in every protection 'system': single point earth ground. Because protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. So that robust protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.
It is such as simple concept. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Understood even 100 years ago. Because protection has always been about where hundreds of thousands of joules (and lesser surges) harmlessly dissipate.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

...

You are a hopeless broken record.

 

[westom]

You are a hopeless broken record.

Electricity did not change because you did not learn what even 1st semester engineers learn. Insulting others does not prove you educated.

Breakdown shows an Isobar is less likely to fail during a surge. Breakdown says nothing about protection from surges.

Life expectancy of a protector over many surges says nothing about protection from each surge. Informed consumers properly earth one 'whole house' protector. So that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. So that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. As proven by over 100 years of science and experience. As originally demonstrated by Franklin in 1752.

Protection is always about a connection to and energy dissipation in earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That never changed.

 

[nukemaster]

Could you not just say.

"Hey I would recommend users get a whole house surge protector than this. It would stop surges before they even enter the system" instead of starting an online pissing match?

Surge bar or not, other things CAN get damaged right? I mean you both agree that another appliance can end up getting the surge. I do not think this means the bar is sending the surge elsewhere.

Electricity is lazy and will take the most easy path to ground right?

Is full house better? Sure. I do not think anyone ever said it was not.

Lucky for me, In my area, I have NEVER had a surge that damaged anything at all(even ran without surge bars for years).

The interconnected path idea is a bit more scary with my computers directly connected to the cable line, but that is grounded it should jump long before my computer(I hope).

I do not think the author wrote and article to lie or mislead users or anything. I mean these bars are sold for a reason. I would rather loose a TV(excuse to get a new one maybe) than years of photos(not replaceable).

I did look at these whole house surge protectors after this began. They are not as expensive as one would think.

For less than the price of my monitor. Installation extra

Surgebreaker Plus Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor
Suitable for use in service entrance locations
Whole home protection
AC line protection
Four line telephone (Analog POTS) or (Digital POTS) protection
Optional digital telephone protection
Two line coaxial protection
Suitable for indoor applications only
Flush or surface mounting
LED status indicator
Modular design
Meets requirements of NEC Article 280, UL Listed 1449, 2nd Edition
Meets ANSI/IEEE C62.41-1988 and cUL certified
2720 joules
Rated for 80000 Amps

 

[westom]

Surge bar or not, other things CAN get damaged right? I mean you both agree that another appliance can end up getting the surge. I do not think this means the bar is sending the surge elsewhere.

Effective protection means no destructive surge is anywhere inside the structure. That means all incoming wires (AC electric, telephone, cable, dog fence, automatic lawn sprinkler) use a well proven solution. As required, by code, industry practices, and government regulation, for cable, phone, satellite dish, and TV antenna leads. Unfortunately, many installers and electricians are not properly trained. Or, in the case of dish installers, that installer can get stuck for the cost of grounding hardware. So protection gets 'forgotten'. Often not a problem since destructive surges might occur maybe once every seven years. And less often in many venues.

Damage is so routinely avoided as to be considered traceable to a human mistake. Damage is averted when a hardwire or protector connects low impedance to THE most important item in every surge protection 'system': single point earth ground. Since even central air, dishwasher, furnace and all GFCIs (RCDs) are at risk. What power bar protects them? Protection means even those are not damaged.

Protection already inside appliances is robust. For example, so called 'sensitive electronics' that create an NIC (Ethernet) port should withstand 2000 volts without damage. Some newer interfaces are now rated for 15,000 volts. Meanwhile a properly earthed protection system means a surge might create hundreds of volts inside. Well below what appliances must withstand without damage.

Author obviously did not write to lie or mislead. He simply parroted popular myths promoted by hearsay, advertising, and salesmen. That myth is widely promoted because profit margins on plug-in protectors are so massive. For example, a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts is sold by Monster for maybe $80. Most consumers only believe the first thing they are told. Most consumers get angry when hard facts and reality contradict a myth they mistakenly believed. That same reality is why a majority of Americans also knew (in the 1950s) that smoking cigarettes increases health. Myths are easiest to promote when one does not always also want reasons why. And especially when one does not learn the numbers.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Is full house better? Sure. I do not think anyone ever said it was not.

Is it better? Sure, in high-risk areas master-certified lightning arrestors are even required by code. Is it perfect? No, just look at any MOV's current-vs-voltage curve, you are looking at about 700V of let-through at rated peak current, not counting wiring resistance and inductance. Is it an option for everyone? No.

For people living in rented houses, apartments, condos or anywhere else where they may not have the authority to have the installation modified, they have to convince their landlords or whatever powers that be to have them installed.

On the coax side of things, many places have been wired before electrical codes started requiring binding the coax to ground near the breaker box or power meter, so you have tons of older buildings where feed cables reach the building's distribution tap 10-20 meters from the main grounding point. The only coax grounding and surge protection you get in those cases is the one you provide yourself. Old phone lines with outdoors termination boxes are often in a similar situation with the box having its own separate ground.

 

[westom]

For people living in rented houses, apartments, condos or anywhere else where they may not have the authority to have the installation modified, they have to convince their landlords or whatever powers that be to have them installed.

Returning to reality. A landlord would be happy to have his apartment appliances protected by the proven solution. Especially if a tenant pays for the solution. Meanwhile, tenants have numerous other choices including the utility provided 'whole house' protector ... that the landlord cannot reject. That 'whole house' protector is installed behind the meter ften by the same girl who reads those meters.

IEEE Standards provide numbers for what protectors do. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection. Meaning a plug-in protector might do another 0.2%. And only if used in conjunction with a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Since a plug-in protector also needs protection so as to not become a fire hazard.

Cable companies taught their installers to properly earth about ten years ago. Still some installation are flawed. Mostly due to homeowners who fail to provide the most important component in any protection system. That component is also why an Isobar does not claim to protect from destructive surges. Single point earth ground is essential. No way around that requirement no matter who denies it.

Telcos have been more responsible for much longer. Any homeowner can inspect that 'Telco provided for free' protector. Codes long ago also required it to be earthed to the same single point earth ground.

A utility's Tech Tip 8 demonstrates how to provide or upgrade THE most important item in any protection system. Good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) options are demonstrated at:
http://www.duke-energy.com/kentucky-business/products/tech-tip-08.asp

Numerous options are available to homeowners when denials are ignored. Most important is an undeniable requirement. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Some protection systems do not even have protectors. In every protection system, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Therefore cable connects via hardwire low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Telco installed for free protector does same. A 'whole house' protector - to even protect an Isobar - is equally effective due to a low impedance connection to earth.

Isobar has no earth ground, no low impedance connection, and does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges - while costing tens of times more money. Its purpose is supplemental protection to a 'whole house' protector that does 99.5% to 999% of protection. With or without an Isobar, the informed homeowner still needs a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. No way around 100+ years of well proven science.

 

[nukemaster]

You have mostly been repeating the same thing.

We get it, you want everyone no matter the location or code requirements to get a whole home protector.

I think you made your point many times over.

 

[westom]

We get it,

Daniel doesn't.

New myths were debunked with new information. For example, he claimed renters cannot have this essential solution. That myth exposed. He also claimed coax is often improperly installed. Even a utility demonstrates how to correct improper installations. Both were new information in reply to myths based in speculation.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

We get it,

Daniel doesn't.

I get that you live in a fantasy world where all utilities and landlords will happily retroactively apply all code changes even when they are not required to since existing installations are grandfathered under the old rules until a major re-wiring project forces them to follow the new rules.

Also note that your Duke "right" coax installation based on 1993 NEC is exactly the same situation as your beloved TV zap scenario: in case of a surge entering through the coax, the impedance of the long ground conductor from the coax grounding block to electrical ground will cause a few kV to get applied to TVs unless the TVs have local coax grounding and surge suppression.

 

[westom]

I get that you live in a fantasy world where all utilities and landlords will happily retroactively apply all code changes .

Daniel has never done this stuff. He does not have required electrical knowledge. He argues, denies, and disparages rather than learn.

One question defines protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Direct lightning strikes cause no damage (even to a protector) when a proven and tens of times less expensive solution is implemented. Even the Isobar needs that protection. An informed homeowners can install it. The proven solution is can even available in Lowes and Home Depot.

Again what he again denies. A power strip (maybe an Isobar) protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV because a surge was not earthed BEFORE entering a building. Isobar type protector gave that surge even more destructive paths into nearby appliances. It's not hard. But again, Daniel argues and denies rather than admit why an Isobar does not protect from and does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges.

 

[nukemaster]

I get that you live in a fantasy world where all utilities and landlords will happily retroactively apply all code changes .

Daniel has never done this stuff. He does not have required electrical knowledge. He argues, denies, and disparages rather than learn.

One question defines protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Direct lightning strikes cause no damage (even to a protector) when a proven and tens of times less expensive solution is implemented. Even the Isobar needs that protection.An informed homeowners can install it. The proven solution is can even available in Lowes and Home Depot.

Again what he again denies. A power strip (maybe an Isobar) protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV because a surge was not earthed BEFORE entering a building. Isobar type protector gave that surge even more destructive paths into nearby appliances. It's not hard. But again, Daniel argues and denies rather than admit why an Isobar does not protect from and does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges.

Did you miss the part about landlords. Does everyone own a home? No. Many rent and many landlord/owners are not going to put down any money not needed.

You clearly do think we live in a perfect world because many times a user will NOT be able to get this installed because they do not own the building and the owner does not want to have it done for one reason or another.

Again if the bar protects the device you want to protect, it did its job(would rather replace a TV than 20+ years of family photos that can not be replaced), while without it, you never know what will get hit.

This is not to deny a better solution(for those able to install or have it installed), but you seem to just like that have the last post.

 

[westom]

Did you miss the part about landlords. Does everyone own a home? No. Many rent and many landlord/owners are not going to put down any money not needed.

Even the utility can install a 'whole house' protector behind their meter. Landlord has no say. Apparently I must repeat something multiple times before it is read.

Power bar does not even claim to protect from destructive surges. Can sometimes make damage easier. And even has a history of creating house fires. We even traced damage to a network of powered off computer because of a power bar protector.

Superior protection at the appliance is already inside the appliance. Why would you deny this after so many reasons with numbers said something different?

To improve protection, one gets a 'whole house' protector. To create additional problems, one might use a power bar protector. Power bar does not contribute to better protection unless used with the 'whole house' solution. Even renters can lease a 'whole house' protector from the utility.

If not using the 'whole house' solution, then smart money is directed not on that power bar protector.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Again what he again denies. A power strip (maybe an Isobar) protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV because a surge was not earthed BEFORE entering a building.

You fail at understanding the IEEE's diagram there - note the black line going from the coax grounding block (the box labeled "A") to building/electrical ground near the meter. You need to learn how to read diagrams before slandering people.

The IEEE's example on figure 8 was grounded using the same "correct" grounding arrangement shown in your Duke link. The 10kV surge appears between the coax grounding block and building electrical ground due to the long ground lead's combined inductance and resistance. Without the surge protector at TV1, both TVs would have been exposed to the full 10kV surge between coax and its electrical outlet.

The "correct" coax hook-up where the cablecos put their distribution taps wherever convenient on an exterior wall, add a several meters long ground tie to meet minimum code requirements and runs coax from there to individual rooms is prevalent in MDUs where coax got added after construction.