Tripp-Lite isobar Surge Protector Tear-Down

[shadowfamicom]

I reall enjoy these powerstrip teardowns. Keep it up!

 

[computertech82]

I would love to see some battery backups tested as well. Maybe even a "best buy" thing for surge protectors/battery backups.

 

[djsvetljo]

I have 30 of those units for sale, way under retail price. Is someone is interested - please reply.

 

[westom]

I So, here is my question. Why do they say not to use one if the distance is less than 10 meters from the service panel?

Read its spec numbers. That device, that works by absorbing or blocking a surge, only has hundreds or a thousand joules. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.

Daniel alluded to an electrical concept called impedance. Longer wire with more splices, inside conduit, sharp bends, etc means higher impedance. Objective is to get a surge connected to earth BEFORE entering a building. That higher impedance works. But only if another path to earth exists.

That impedance means these undersized protectors are less likely to create a house fire. Impedance means MOVs are less likely to degrade (the acceptable failure that is not indicated by its lights) or catastrophically fail (an unacceptable failure).

Plug-in protectors have created house fires when a properly earthed 'whole house' protector did not exist. A 'whole house' solution means a destructive surge (ie 20,000 amps) dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Always.

Those inductors are not filters for noise. Electronics intentionally restore that noise and more. Then superior internal filters eliminate all that noise. Superior filtering is already inside electronics. Protector's torroids keep undersized MOVs from failing (in rare cases, a fire). Inductors mean energy may find other paths (ie destructively via other appliances) to get to earth.

Torroids to increase MOV life expectancy has long been discussed by MOV manufacturers in their application notes.

An Isobar may appear complicated. But it is only doing what all other power strips also do. Other manufacturers avoid catastrophic failure by installing more joules rather than inductors (torroids). Some manufacturers keep its joules tiny so that a surge, too small to harm appliances, destroys the protector. That promotes myths and sales. But the bottom line remains same. Protection is defined by how that surge current connects to distant earthborne charges - how it connects to earth without passing through appliances.

Separation between a breaker box and tiny protectors is necessary for human safety. UL1449 is only about human safety (not about transistor safety). So undersized protectors must have more wire (higher impedance) between a surge and its MOVs to conform to UL and other safety standards.

Obviously, that teardown demonstrates why a Tripplite is less likely to fail. It does not say anything about effective protection or where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Effective protection is defined by where that energy is absorbed - harmlessly.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

It does not say anything about effective protection or where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

And I never will since "hundreds of thousands of joules" will NEVER be present on power outlets during a lightning strike or other "normal" surge event. ANSI/IEEE papers about surges rate EXCEPTIONAL surges at household outlets at well under 1kJ and that is only with an unprotected load to accept the surge. Once you use inductors between the outlet and loads to limit the current rise rate, surge energy near the load can be almost completely eliminated. Yes, the remainder of the surge will have to find somewhere else to go but the whole point of local surge protection is to protect specific equipment.

 

[westom]

I never will since "hundreds of thousands of joules" will NEVER be present on power outlets during a lightning strike or other "normal" surge event. ANSI/IEEE papers about surges rate EXCEPTIONAL surges at household outlets at well under 1kJ and that is only with an unprotected load to accept the surge.

If surges are that tiny (1Kj), then electronics are routinely converting surges into low voltage DC to power its semiconductors. Those tiny transients are noise. Concern (and the reason for protectors) is a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that overwhelms protection already inside all appliances.

IEEE shows (in figure 8 of a brochure) how a plug-in protector may even earth a surge destructively through nearby appliances. It need not be the appliance connected to that Isobar. An Isobar (or equivalent) may earth destructively through some other nearby TV. IEEE puts numbers to it. That TV is damaged by an 8000 volt surge. A surge connected to that TV by a plug-in protector BECAUSE a properly earthed solution was missing.

Every protection layer is not defined by a protector. Every protection layer is defined by a single point earth ground for that layer. 'Whole house' protector is so effective when it earths hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth. Isobar is simply an add-on to that protection layer. But if a 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed, then the Isobar does nothing for that other and destructive type of surge. Protection is a discussion about how that current goes to earth - destructively or harmlessly.

Protection is about a current connected from a cloud to earth. Any protector without that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth does not claim to protect from this other and typically destructive surge. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Always.

Some surges (ie 1Kj) are to tiny as to not damage appliances. Due to superior protection already inside every appliance. Those same tiny surges may destroy grossly undersized protectors (rated at hundreds or a thousand joules). Then naive consumers use wild speculation to say, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my TV". Nonsense. The TV saved itself from a tiny surge that destroyed its protector. That current incoming to the protector was also outgoing into the TV - simultaneously.

A properly earthed 'whole house' protector - that makes hundreds of thousands of joules irrelevant - also protects power bar protectors from a tiny surge - maybe thousands of joules. Protection is always about where energy harmlessly dissipates. A useful recommendation will say where energy dissipates.

Even an Isobar needs a 'whole house' protector to do what Tripplite designed it for. To protect from tiny surges that often do not even damage GFCIs, refrigerators, clocks, and dishwashers. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules (destructive surges that occur maybe once every seven years) are absorbed.

Effective solutions feature a dedicated and low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. To even protect an Isobar from a surge that the Isobar is not designed to protect from. As the IEEE notes, this destructive type of surge may, otherwise, be earthed by an Isobar 8000 volts destructively through some nearby TV. Where does energy harmlessly dissipate? Then protection already inside appliances is not overwhelmed.

How does an Isobar dissipate a destructive surge? Where are the numbers? To do something useful, the Isobar is part of a system that features a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

A properly earthed 'whole house' protector is about $1 per protected appliance. How much is an Isobar to only protect from one (typically not destructive) surge? $50 per? $80 per?

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

IEEE shows (in figure 8 of a brochure) how a plug-in protector may even earth a surge destructively through nearby appliances. It need not be the appliance connected to that Isobar. An Isobar (or equivalent) may earth destructively through some other nearby TV.

Surge protection only works when all connected loads are connected to the same local ground. Once you start introducing alternate paths to ground and ground loops (antennas) by connecting equipment from other circuits together, all bets are off regardless of how good your main ground is and whole-home surge protection are.

Some surges (ie 1Kj) are to tiny as to not damage appliances. Due to superior protection already inside every appliance.

The surge protection present in most electronics I have taken apart is nowhere near as significant as the isobar or SurgeArrest Performance units I have posted in these tear-downs. LCDs, PC PSUs and PC peripherals rarely integrate any more filtering and surge suppression than necessary to meet EMI requirements and prevent the supply's primary side from blowing up at the first sign of a minor surge. In most electronics I have opened up, the MOVs, if any, are 14D391K or higher voltage, which means no significant clamping until 500V or so, unlike most plug-in surge protectors which use 20D201K which have twice the surge energy rating and start providing significant clamping around 300V.

And 1kJ is by no means tiny. For illustrative purpose, 1kJ is the equivalent of dropping a 10kg brick from 10m high. That would hurt pretty bad. On the 8/25 combination waveform, it implies currents well in excess of 3000A which is more than the worst-case surge current that should ever be present at household outlets. Such surges would readily destroy most rectifier diodes by exceeding IFSM by an order of magnitude and damage X/Y caps through gross momentary over-voltage. Many power supplies only have common-mode chokes for EMI suppression which do nothing for blocking surges across L-N. Small supplies often have little to no protection whatsoever. 1kJ is definitely not "noise" level.

Most people would much prefer replacing a $30-70 surge protector than $1000+ worth of electronics.

 

[westom]

The surge protection present in most electronics I have taken apart is nowhere near as significant as the isobar or SurgeArrest Performance units I have posted in these tear-downs.

Isobars are some of the more rugged circuits. That defines protector life expectancy over many surges. It says nothing about protection during each surge.

Again, best protection is a hardwire from each wire inside each cable to earth ground. Protectors are only used when a hardwire cannot be used (ie on telephone wires). An effective protector only does what a hardwire does better. The Isobar has no such connection to earth. And does not claim to protect from surges that typically cause damage.

1Kj surge is made irrelevant by protection even inside GFCIs, CFL bulbs, and clocks. Protection because those diodes are integrated with other circuits to even convert 1Kj surges into low voltage DC to power semiconductors - safely. Due to design standards that existed even long before PCs existed. Facilities that cannot have damage, instead, always use the other and properly earthed 'whole house' solution. Because even power bar protectors need to be protected from surges that can overwhelm existing protection (already inside every appliance).

Please stop confused life expectancy over many surges with protection from each surge. Please stop assuming near joules in power bar protectors will somehow make destructive surges (ie hundreds of thousands of joules) irrelevant. Since even Tripplite does not claim to protect from the other and typically destuctive surge.

We keep having this discussion because you have assumed normal mode transients are same as longitudinal mode. Please learn why facilities that cannot have damage (even 100 years ago) always use the other 'whole house' solution. Please learn why each layer of protection is defined by the earth ground - not by a protector. Please learn what protectors do.

 

[westom]

Most people would much prefer replacing a $30-70 surge protector than $1000+ worth of electronics.

Facilities that cannot have damage have learned the $30-$70 protector does not claim to protect from destructive surges. But the $1 solution does ... because it is connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single poin t earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - that Tripplite does not have and will not discuss. A superior solution is also tens of times less money. So that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.

Protection means a surge current does not and need not enter the building. Protection means nobody even knew a surge existed. Even clocks, CFL bulbs, and GFCIs must not be damaged.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Isobars are some of the more rugged circuits. That defines protector life expectancy over many surges. It says nothing about protection during each surge.

The 30V-ish surge let-through specification tells you exactly how much protection the isobar gives for each 8/20 surge, assuming everything connected to the isobar is connected and grounded only through the isobar.

Again, best protection is a hardwire from each wire inside each cable to earth ground.

By having multiple grounding points, you introduce multiple ground loops and each ground loop acts as an antenna. With each loop having a captation area of several square meters coupling into the magnetic field of any major surges occurring in the area, nasty voltages and currents can appear in unexpected places. All interconnected equipment must be referenced to the same ground or be galvanically isolated to prevent damage from ground currents. This is how geomagnetic storms bring down power grids.

1Kj surge is made irrelevant by protection even inside GFCIs, CFL bulbs, and clocks.

The CCFL lamps I have dismantled had a 10-33µF input filter capacitor in them. A 1kJ surge would charge them to somewhere north of 5kV, which means instantaneous destruction of the cap and most semiconductor components. In that form factor, the only "protection" usually comes in the form of an inrush limit NTC and a small resistor on fuse duty.

AFCI and GFCI do not protect against surges since they are orders of magnitude too slow to offer any meaningful protection. Tripping a breaker is an electro-mechanical task that takes several milliseconds while surges are microsecond-scale events.

Facilities that cannot have damage have learned the $30-$70 protector does not claim to protect from destructive surges.

Facilities that cannot allow surges in will have large selenium cell stacks to handle long-term events such as shorts to HV lines at their power input facilities, other surge suppression devices at strategic point of their power distribution network, type-1/2 SPDs at individual breaker boxes and type-3 SPDs near the point of use in addition to whatever type-4 protections the loads may have built-in.

But the $1 solution does ... because it is connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single poin t earth ground.

Unless you live in a shoe box sized home and work in a shoe box sized company, 10' from a central ground is not realistic and if you run each equipment's ground on separate ground wires to that "central ground" you still create ground loops - bigger ones than if you had a local ground point such as a power strip. This is the same reason AV people strongly recommend connecting all equipment to the same power strip to avoid humming and other noise pick-up through ground loops.

Once you get into commercial, industrial, MDUs or medium-sized homes, even 10 meters (the type-3 requirement is 10 meters, that's 33 feet) from any sort of direct ground connection will not be practical, if possible at all. This can quickly get far more expensive than $100 and you still create ground loops every time you connect non-isolated grounded equipment together.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground

Equipment can be protected perfectly fine without ground whatsoever since the main concern for equipment power input protection is voltage across L-N, which is why surge protectors focus on L-N instead of ground. Even the cheap sub-$15 power strips from my 10-way roundup all had their beefiest MOVs (or only MOV for the very cheapest units) across L-N.

Earth ground is only required for safety reasons and it is generally considered poor practice to use it for anything else including dumping surges.

 

[westom]

Earth ground is only required for safety reasons and it is generally considered poor practice to use it for anything else including dumping surges.

Earth ground is required by safety codes for human safety. Earth ground - that meets and exceeds code requirements - is essential for surge protection. Facilities that cannot have damage spend most time and money on what does protection - single point earth ground.

I did not say multiple earth grounds. That is obvious also from basic protection concepts. Stated quite clearly is "single point earth ground". Protection is defined by 'quality of and connection to' that ground - single point earth ground. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Single point earth ground.

Urban myths (not engineering knowledge) also hype electromagnetic fields as destructive. Well, a direct lightning strike was to the building's lightning rod. That meant maybe 20,000 amps was going from that rod to earth. Four feet away from that wire was an IBM PC. It (and all other electronic equipment in the building) did not even blink. Because protection routinely inside all electronics (even wrist watches, car radios, and cell phones) make the E-M fields irrelevant. Please do not cite those urban myths. Please first learn how protection really works and why all appliances already have robust protection.

Earth ground is essential to protectors for the same reason earth ground also defines effectiveness of a lightning rod. In all cases, protection is about connecting that current to earth on a path that remains outside the building.

Again, obtain sufficient electrical knowledge to appreciate what a surge protector does. You have assumed surges are normal mode (an L-N voltage). Surges are longitudinal mode. You ignore these concepts because you never learned them. Clearly L-N voltage is not what causes damage. You only assumed a surge is a voltage between (for example) black hot wire and white neutral wire. It is not. It clearly is not. But again, please learn this stuff before making recommendations.

Why does a protector in the IEEE brochure show a surge, earthed by a power bar protector, 8000 volts destructively via a TV? You did not understand that either.

Some numbers. Let's say a 5000 volt surge is approaching on the black hot wire. What would an Isobar do? Read a number on its box: 330 volt let-through voltage. (Not 30ish volts.) That means 5000 volts is on a black hot wire. And 4670 volts is now on a white neutral and green safety ground wires. What has the power bar protector done? It gave a surge more paths to find earth destructively via some adjacent appliance. We even traced semiconductor damage to identify the reasons for damage - an adjacent power bar protector connected to powered off computers.

Only wild speculation assumes a protector is the protection "system". Protector is only one "system" component. Effective protectors make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') connection to earth. You assumed a green safety ground wire is connected directly to earth. Assumed earth ground is only for human safety. And incorrectly assumed safety ground in a receptacle is earth ground. The term 'less than ten feet' is about another 'non learned' electrical concept. Impedance.

Understanding surge protection is about learning basic electrical concepts. You do not understand impedance. Do not understand why wire must be so short. Never learned the many functions of earth ground. And clearly did not learn how that low impedance connect is done routinely in properly wired homes. Even a utility demonstrates how it is done - because a low impedance connection to single point earth ground is essential to appliance protection:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp
Why does a utility require better earthing to protect appliances? And you say earthing is not for appliance protection? You don't do this stuff.

Earthing is essential. So that a surge current is not inside the building. And how it was done even 100 years ago.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Best protection (ie for cable TV) is a hardwire connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to "single point earth ground". Protectors are used when that utility wire (ie AC electric, telephone) cannot connect directly to earth. A protector only does what the hardwire does better.

Isobar is not for these destructive types of surges. It has no low impedance connection to earth. It will not discuss this other and destructive surge. Again. 5000 volts on one wire means 4670 on other AC wires. Power bar protectors can even compromise protection inside computers when a 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed.

You also do not comprehend what was written. I never said AGFI or GFCI does surge protection. However those devices are also protected by properly earthing a 'whole house' protector. If you did this stuff, then you understood that. Did not recommend an Isobar to do what it cannot. Recommended a properly earthed 'whole house' protector if using the Isobar. And did not misread what was posted.

 

[westom]

Tear down demonstrates that an Isobar is more robust than other protectors. This is important. Since a protector that fails during a surge provided no effective protection.

That only discusses one component of a protection "system". Isobar without earth ground is not part of a protection "system". It only claims to protect from a type of surge that typically does no damage: an L-N voltage.

A potentially destructive surge must connect to earth BEFORE entering the building. A paper from an AT&T forum discusses this in "How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges?"

Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...

Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the process. ...

Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from damage. ...

By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges which enter from the power company's service entrance feed. These types of protectors can absorb/pass considerably more energy than any other type of protector, and if one does catastrophically fail, it will not typically be in a living space. ...

Plug in strip protectors are, at best, a compromise. At worst, they may cause more damage than they prevent. While they may do an acceptable job of handling hot to neutral surges, they do a poor job of handling any surge that must be passed to ground. ...

Then, to add insult to injury, some strip protectors add Telco and/or LAN surge protection within the same device, trying to be an all-in-one sale. Remember bonding? When Telco or LAN protection is added to a strip protector, if the premise ground, which is not designed to handle surges, cannot handle all of the energy, guess where that excess energy seeks out the additional grounds? You got it! The Telco and LAN connections now becomes the path, with disastrous results to those devices. ...

Protectors without that low impedance connection to earth may even make appliance damage easier - as AT&T demonstrates.

To not make damage easier, an Isobar should be used in conjunction with a 'whole house' system.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Some numbers. Let's say a 5000 volt surge is approaching on the black hot wire. What would an Isobar do? Read a number on its box: 330 volt let-through voltage. (Not 30ish volts.) That means 5000 volts is on a black hot wire. And 4670 volts is now on a white neutral and green safety ground wires. What has the power bar protector done? It gave a surge more paths to find earth destructively via some adjacent appliance.

You cannot even read the isobar's packaging right and you accuse me of being ignorant?

The isobar's UL1449-r3 rating is 330V but the specification area on the packaging says 35V surge let-through and what that means is that across the protected L-N, the loads will not see more than 205V or so. Most of the surge voltage is being dropped across the inductors, the surge current rise is being limited by their inductance and the rest gets clamped by the MOVs. As long as all the protected equipment is only connected to ground through the isobar, which seems to be a fundamental local surge protection concept that seems to fly miles over your head for some reason, there is no 4600V to other appliances because they are all at the same reference potential regardless of impedance to ground.

You accuse me of being ignorant but the concept of ground loops and how they couple with magnetic fields appears to be alien to you as well. Once you start connecting equipment with electrical signal cables, you are no longer dealing with a simple common-mode event. Since you claim to have so much experience and knowledge, I have homework for you: let's say your 20kA lightning strike has a 2.5kA/µs rise rate (even lightning is not instantaneous current since it has to overcome free-air straight wire inductance) and that the lightning arc is otherwise considered an infinite straight wire. What are the induced voltage and current in a one square meter loop of #12 copper wire located one meter parallel with the lightning arc's axis?

Since you pretend to be so much more knowledgeable than I am, you should be able to answer this correctly without opening a textbook to look it up.

When you introduce a TV in the mix, this implies a coax and unless the coax is surge-protected and grounded on the same power strip as the TV and everything else connected to it, you just introduced one very large ground loop in the system.

 

[westom]

When you introduce a TV in the mix, this implies a coax and unless the coax is surge-protected and grounded on the same power strip as the TV and everything else connected to it, you just introduced one very large ground loop in the system.

Even cable companies recommend removing that protector. Since an adjacent protector does not provide effective protection. It can compromise protection in adjacent electronics. And best protection should already exist. Best protection is a connection from that cable to earth ground. A low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection. Using single point earth ground. As demonstrated by a utility's Tech Tip. Based in how it was done even 100 years ago. A case study demonstrates how a Nebraska radio station stopped having surge damage when earth grounds (and no protectors) were restored:
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/nebraska.html

A homeowner is responsible for providing, inspecting, and upgrading his single point earth ground. Since earth ground (not any protector) defines protection.

Isobar is a more robust power bar - as demonstrated by the teardown. That defines protector “life expectancy”. Protection for “each surge” is defined by earth ground. Protection is always about where energy is harmlessly absorbed. Teardown demonstrates that Isobar does not have that required earthing connection.

Cable companies recommend removing power bar protectors from their cable? For many posted reasons including those defined by an AT&T forum paper. Using concepts defined in a Tech Tip. Protectors can even make appliance damage easier (ie surge protector that earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV).

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Informed consumers spend tens of times less money to properly earth effective solutions from Siemens, ABB, General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Leviton, Clipsal, Novaris, Delta, Square D, Intermatic, Ditek, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, or Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) ... to name but a few. Effective protectors (designed to earth direct lightning strikes without damage) have a dedicated wire for earthing. These protect from all types of surges (including normal and longitudinal mode – please learn these concepts).

Should I assume you appreciate that earth ground is essential for protection? 100 years of science and experience demonstrate protection is a surge current not inside the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – as Orange County FL learned to stop having damage to their 911 emergency systems:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm
Damage eliminated without installing protectors. By fixing what does protection. And by ignoring popular retail myths.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Recommended are sources for proven devices.

 

[westom]

Numerous other manufacturers also recommend not using power strip protectors with their products including PlayStation and Xbox. This recently posted on 15 April 2015 by Microsoft support in
"Xbox One Defects" at http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4269/t/1957594.aspx#5227599

Red Ring of Death was a known hardware defect due to a variety of issues (things like decreased airflow, improperly-rated materials used to adhere the graphics chip to the motherboard, and even a lack of instruction in the original documentation indicating that the device shouldn't be plugged into a surge protector/power strip) which resulted in an extraordinarily high percentage of failures in consoles.

Reasons why are posted here.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

Cable companies recommend removing power bar protectors from their cable? For many posted reasons including those defined by an AT&T forum paper. Using concepts defined in a Tech Tip. Protectors can even make appliance damage easier (ie surge protector that earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV).

Casually glossing over the details of how the surge got there as usual. How did the TV earth a surge? I do not know which paper you are referring to but I would guess it is through coax and other inputs because the TV was connected to other stuff powered from a different surge protector and possibly even from an outlet connected to a different branch circuit altogether - the textbook case for how to misuse surge protection.

Appliances do not care what their ground voltage is. What they care about is that they are at the same relative ground voltage as everything else they are connected to so they are all at the same reference voltage and no ground current flows between them.

Cut a surge suppressor's ground wire, you still get perfectly viable protection across L-N as long as said stuff is not connected to something outside of that floating ground but you might get zapped if you touch metal on floating equipment. Many small electronics and appliances have no ground connection whatsoever but they can still be protected across L-N.

I read a few of those XBox posts just for kicks and none of them contained any factual engineering details about why it should not be plugged into a surge protector beyond the nonsense about the Xbox's internal protection - if a surge protection has to go bust, most people would much prefer if it was a user-replaceable $40-70 item than a $300 repair or $400 replacement. There is a small shred of evidence about the surge protection in some strips adding impedance some PSUs might not be happy with and that's about it.

 

[Kewlx25]

Numerous other manufacturers also recommend not using power strip protectors with their products including PlayStation and Xbox. This recently posted on 15 April 2015 by Microsoft support in
"Xbox One Defects" at http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4269/t/1957594.aspx#5227599

Red Ring of Death was a known hardware defect due to a variety of issues (things like decreased airflow, improperly-rated materials used to adhere the graphics chip to the motherboard, and even a lack of instruction in the original documentation indicating that the device shouldn't be plugged into a surge protector/power strip) which resulted in an extraordinarily high percentage of failures in consoles.

Reasons why are posted here.

"original documentation indicating that the device shouldn't be plugged into a surge protector/power strip which resulted in an extraordinarily high percentage of failures in consoles"

The reason was because of overloaded surge protectors. I guess the XBox does not like brown outs.

 

[Kewlx25]

There is a lot of talk about how bad surge protectors are, but in my limited personal experience, I have seen many times where the only devices not dead were on a surge protector.

Being stuck in apartment, I have no option for a full house protector. I figure the next best thing is a surge protector

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

The reason was because of overloaded surge protectors. I guess the XBox does not like brown outs.

Given how the circuit breaker for branches aside from kitchen counters is usually 15A and how nearly all half-decent power strips and surge protectors are rated for the whole 15A, "overloading" a decently designed one should be effectively impossible. The Xbox's PSU design would need to be exceptionally prissy to mind the minor insertion losses of a power strip, especially the cheap(er) surge protectors which are little more than a regular power strip with a MOV (or five) across lines.

 

[nukemaster]

Maybe they are worried about ground loop hum or something.

All my computer speakers said no surge protector too(but since I want them on my UPS they just have to deal with it. Never been an issue yet).

I actually get some hum with my capture card connected to my cable box(shame, but no one here seems to have cable isolators[bet that would fix me up]. The cable grounding seems fine and was done when the cable enters the building). In my case it is just so much crap all connected together(2 computers, 2 monitors speakers external drives/ect and both the computers connect to a sharing usb hub). Disconnecting either of the computers audio removes this issue. Very minor issue however.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

I actually get some hum with my capture card connected to my cable box(shame, but no one here seems to have cable isolators[bet that would fix me up]. The cable grounding seems fine and was done when the cable enters the building). In my case it is just so much crap all connected together(2 computers, 2 monitors speakers external drives/ect and both the computers connect to a sharing usb hub). Disconnecting either of the computers audio removes this issue. Very minor issue however.

One thing you might want to try is buy a length of #14 multi-strand copper wire, a few fork or eyelet crimp terminals and connect the chassis ground of all your related equipment together through one of the case screws. That should substantially reduce ground impedance between equipment and the associated common-mode noise/hum.

I used to get lots of GSM interference on my audio amplifier and this simple hack got rid of it.

 

[nukemaster]

I will see about trying that.

would grounding the coaxial cable be a good or bad idea. I always read one place only.It is technically grounded at the computer because the power supply is not isolated.

Thanks.

 

[Daniel Sauvageau]

would grounding the coaxial cable be a good or bad idea. I always read one place only.It is technically grounded at the computer because the power supply is not isolated.

Ideally, you do want to ground all related equipment and cables to a single common point as close to everything as possible. But when that is not possible or "close" is not close enough to avoid picking up noise, the next best things are to either add galvanic isolation between equipment clusters on different grounds to eliminate ground currents between the two or beef up the ground between clusters to reduce ground voltage difference between the two.

BTW, you want to route that supplemental ground wire right along all your existing signal wires to minimize the surface area between the ground wire and the signals referenced to it since the amount of EMI a ground loop can pick up is directly proportional to that area.

As you appear to have deduced for yourself, all your equipment is already grounded, albeit indirectly, through your signal cables. All the extra ground wire does is provide a stronger ground between components.

Where the coax is concerned, the F-connector's body is almost certainly connected to the receiver's body and all of its IO connections' shields too. Just as above, simply connecting the receiver to something else with an electrical signal cable already bridges coax ground to whatever-else ground.

 

[nukemaster]

It sure is and it sure is a mess.

When you say route this ground with my signal cables you recommend running it with the audio/usb/other cables? I have a audio combiner(simple inverting opamp summing followed by another to undo the first inversion. This thing is powered with an isolated DC-DC converter run off of the computers USB port[had an isolated wallwart, but seemed inefficient for something that only took a bit over 1 watt. Takes less now with lower power opamps]) between the systems so they can both play sound at the same time. The hum was the same with the 2 systems connected to different inputs(all share the same ground inside the system). It was like a godsend to not have to pick what system plays sound.

On the plus side it takes pretty loud volume before it becomes an issue. The computers share the same UPS as well, but I think the cable box and capture card may be on another UPS(tried to balance the loads).

I think the big one is simply having the computers share the same speakers one monitor and usb hub. This is plenty of place for unwanted noise(on top of that coaxial cable).

Anyway. I will stop taking this off topic.

 

[Kewlx25]

The reason was because of overloaded surge protectors. I guess the XBox does not like brown outs.

Given how the circuit breaker for branches aside from kitchen counters is usually 15A and how nearly all half-decent power strips and surge protectors are rated for the whole 15A, "overloading" a decently designed one should be effectively impossible. The Xbox's PSU design would need to be exceptionally prissy to mind the minor insertion losses of a power strip, especially the cheap(er) surge protectors which are little more than a regular power strip with a MOV (or five) across lines.

I guess I was a little premature on that response. It seems that many cheap surge protectors drop a lot of voltage, forcing the XBox to pull more amperage and increasing heat. A bit more reading shows that USA voltage can vary from 107v-120v. Put a house on low end voltage and a cheap protector, and the voltage may be too low for the XBox. I know the PSU on my computer officially supports down to 80v and as high as 270v. I have seen stress tests for my PSU that actually got it down to 80v, and DC output was perfectly stable, but heat generation was quite high.