Oh Snap
Distinguished
I refer you to:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/page-20705_9_80.html
I don't feel like reposting everything, but I think it was made pretty clear in that thread (as it should be), that piracy, although you may disagree with it on some level, is NOT the same thing as stealing. Disagree with piracy, RobWright, and continue to make your arguments against it, but at least do so with some respect to logic and reasoning.
Here we go:
I really don't know how much more clear I can be on the subject, and quite frankly I'm disappointed if you still want to be ignorant and equate two very different things.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/page-20705_9_80.html
I don't feel like reposting everything, but I think it was made pretty clear in that thread (as it should be), that piracy, although you may disagree with it on some level, is NOT the same thing as stealing. Disagree with piracy, RobWright, and continue to make your arguments against it, but at least do so with some respect to logic and reasoning.
Here we go:
OhhSnap :
Do you seriously not understand the difference between COPYING and TAKING? Here's an example:
You have two objects in your possession: a ball and a piece of paper with the numbers "010101" written on it. I take your ball, and I also have my own piece of paper where I copy your string of numbers "010101" on it. Now, you're left without a ball, but you still have your piece of paper with numbers on it. Do you honestly not see the difference? Is it really that difficult to understand? Now, I go outside and let 1000 people copy the phrase "010101" onto their own pieces of paper. No doubt you spent a lot of time writing down that string of numbers in the first place, and you also run a service where you sell your own pieces of paper with it pre-written on them. In your eyes, I've STOLEN from you? No. It's presumptuous (and quite a hilarious indication of how a lot of game companies think so highly of their own products) that you would assume that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people who copied that string of numbers would have purchased one of your own printed pieces of paper had it not been available. Even if this was so, your argument holds no water, no matter how large you make the tank. You're stating that the distribution of copyrighted material is stealing because it's going to a LOT of people, but you still don't understand the difference between a single person STEALING property and DUPLICATING it.
You also don't seem to understand the difference between a failing investment and stolen revenue. If I start my own business and invest a large amount of my own money, and then I don't have enough customers to make back enough to cover my initial investment, I don't get to claim that someone STOLE that initial investment. They chose not to support it, and I took a risk and lost. If a company invests $2,000,000 in a game and only makes $1,500,000 back because no one bought their game (because they simply chose not to buy it, or decided to play a pirated version), it doesn't mean that they STOLE that initial investment. The company put it forward, it didn't turn out how they wanted, and they lost.
Your analogy is also poor because you still don't understand the difference between preventing someone from purchasing the game vs. allowing someone to copy the game. If I steal a game off the shelf, not only did I not pay for it, but I also have prevented someone from buying that same copy of the game. I care so much about the correct wording because I hate seeing the industry assume that they're somehow entitled to making back their investment. They're not. Every business takes chances, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you can't just claim that someone STOLE your investment because they choose not to pay you for something.
However, you bring up the example of you posting articles on your site, and someone copying that article and posting it on their own. This isn't a great example, but essentially I could read the article on either site for "free". Say, however, that they DON'T have ads on their site and you DO. I've chosen to not deal with your ads in favor of reading the same article, ad free. However, I haven't STOLEN the article from you, I simply chose not to support your initial investment of time (spent writing the article, working on your site, getting advertisers) and money (paying for the server, designers, maintenance, etc.). If anything, by reading your copied article on ANOTHER website I've actually done you a service compared to say, using Adblock for Firefox (which I do use), because at least I'm not using your bandwidth. You're still in full possession of your own article which you worked on, and on your own website and server which you made an investment on. It didn't work out for you, tough break. However, say that person that copied your article is actually making money off of their own advertisements on their site. In that case, you are entitled to whatever they earn as a result of using your copyrighted material. That's all it means -- you're entitled to any earnings associated with your work. You aren't entitled to making back your initial investment from people who simply may not have ever considered paying for it in the first place.
Now if I went to, say, Blizzard HQ and physically copied over the game files AND THEN DELETED THEM from their system so they no longer had the game, that would be STEALING. The company paid their programmers for their work, they paid for the distribution and marking of the game to get it on the shelves, but in reality, they are still in full possession of everything they paid for, they just didn't make the profit they feel they're entitled to.
If I have a for sale sign on my car and some guy walks up to it, takes a look at it, pulls out a wand and *DING!* he's duplicated my car, gets in it and drives off, he COPIED it, he didn't STEAL it, regardless of how many hours or how much money I may have spent fixing the car up in order to sell it. When I steal something from you, I'm making something of yours mine and making it no longer yours. It's no longer in your possession. When I copy something, I'm making something of yours mine, but you still have yours too. Can you really even argue this any further? I'm simply amazed my initial point obviously didn't make it clear enough for you, especially for someone who's supposed to be so adept at reading comprehension.
And on another note, I find it quite funny that you're trying to defend the term "stealing" by justifying it with the idea of licenses. It's rather audacious to state you're selling the right to use a given product, and then turn around and say everyone using it without your permission is stealing. I'm selling the right to drive my used Ford Taurus, so that guy who used his magic wand to duplicate has surely stolen it! Wrong, he simply isn't paying me for something that didn't cost me any additional money beyond my original investment
I'm not arguing that the ability to pirate games isn't detrimental to the success of the PC gaming industry. Under their current business model and the huge investments they're making in order to produce these games, combined with how easily one can pirate a game, there's no doubt that a lot of the smaller companies are destined to fail, although the exact extent of the piracy's effect isn't known, it's only estimated. Companies have had it there way for a long time, and it's upsetting when things change and they're no longer in complete control of "licenses." Before, they could guarantee that the sale of said licenses would make up for their investments, and as time grew, so did the initial investments, assuming that the number of sales would also follow. Then, file-sharing came into the picture, and now in order to survive, they either have to fight file-sharing with more sophisticated copy prevention, or change their model in order to succeed in this new environment. What model is that? I really don't know, I'm not an expert, all I know is that the water's getting thicker so they're going to either have to swim a lot harder or find another way to keep afloat.
You have two objects in your possession: a ball and a piece of paper with the numbers "010101" written on it. I take your ball, and I also have my own piece of paper where I copy your string of numbers "010101" on it. Now, you're left without a ball, but you still have your piece of paper with numbers on it. Do you honestly not see the difference? Is it really that difficult to understand? Now, I go outside and let 1000 people copy the phrase "010101" onto their own pieces of paper. No doubt you spent a lot of time writing down that string of numbers in the first place, and you also run a service where you sell your own pieces of paper with it pre-written on them. In your eyes, I've STOLEN from you? No. It's presumptuous (and quite a hilarious indication of how a lot of game companies think so highly of their own products) that you would assume that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people who copied that string of numbers would have purchased one of your own printed pieces of paper had it not been available. Even if this was so, your argument holds no water, no matter how large you make the tank. You're stating that the distribution of copyrighted material is stealing because it's going to a LOT of people, but you still don't understand the difference between a single person STEALING property and DUPLICATING it.
You also don't seem to understand the difference between a failing investment and stolen revenue. If I start my own business and invest a large amount of my own money, and then I don't have enough customers to make back enough to cover my initial investment, I don't get to claim that someone STOLE that initial investment. They chose not to support it, and I took a risk and lost. If a company invests $2,000,000 in a game and only makes $1,500,000 back because no one bought their game (because they simply chose not to buy it, or decided to play a pirated version), it doesn't mean that they STOLE that initial investment. The company put it forward, it didn't turn out how they wanted, and they lost.
Your analogy is also poor because you still don't understand the difference between preventing someone from purchasing the game vs. allowing someone to copy the game. If I steal a game off the shelf, not only did I not pay for it, but I also have prevented someone from buying that same copy of the game. I care so much about the correct wording because I hate seeing the industry assume that they're somehow entitled to making back their investment. They're not. Every business takes chances, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you can't just claim that someone STOLE your investment because they choose not to pay you for something.
However, you bring up the example of you posting articles on your site, and someone copying that article and posting it on their own. This isn't a great example, but essentially I could read the article on either site for "free". Say, however, that they DON'T have ads on their site and you DO. I've chosen to not deal with your ads in favor of reading the same article, ad free. However, I haven't STOLEN the article from you, I simply chose not to support your initial investment of time (spent writing the article, working on your site, getting advertisers) and money (paying for the server, designers, maintenance, etc.). If anything, by reading your copied article on ANOTHER website I've actually done you a service compared to say, using Adblock for Firefox (which I do use), because at least I'm not using your bandwidth. You're still in full possession of your own article which you worked on, and on your own website and server which you made an investment on. It didn't work out for you, tough break. However, say that person that copied your article is actually making money off of their own advertisements on their site. In that case, you are entitled to whatever they earn as a result of using your copyrighted material. That's all it means -- you're entitled to any earnings associated with your work. You aren't entitled to making back your initial investment from people who simply may not have ever considered paying for it in the first place.
Now if I went to, say, Blizzard HQ and physically copied over the game files AND THEN DELETED THEM from their system so they no longer had the game, that would be STEALING. The company paid their programmers for their work, they paid for the distribution and marking of the game to get it on the shelves, but in reality, they are still in full possession of everything they paid for, they just didn't make the profit they feel they're entitled to.
If I have a for sale sign on my car and some guy walks up to it, takes a look at it, pulls out a wand and *DING!* he's duplicated my car, gets in it and drives off, he COPIED it, he didn't STEAL it, regardless of how many hours or how much money I may have spent fixing the car up in order to sell it. When I steal something from you, I'm making something of yours mine and making it no longer yours. It's no longer in your possession. When I copy something, I'm making something of yours mine, but you still have yours too. Can you really even argue this any further? I'm simply amazed my initial point obviously didn't make it clear enough for you, especially for someone who's supposed to be so adept at reading comprehension.
And on another note, I find it quite funny that you're trying to defend the term "stealing" by justifying it with the idea of licenses. It's rather audacious to state you're selling the right to use a given product, and then turn around and say everyone using it without your permission is stealing. I'm selling the right to drive my used Ford Taurus, so that guy who used his magic wand to duplicate has surely stolen it! Wrong, he simply isn't paying me for something that didn't cost me any additional money beyond my original investment
I'm not arguing that the ability to pirate games isn't detrimental to the success of the PC gaming industry. Under their current business model and the huge investments they're making in order to produce these games, combined with how easily one can pirate a game, there's no doubt that a lot of the smaller companies are destined to fail, although the exact extent of the piracy's effect isn't known, it's only estimated. Companies have had it there way for a long time, and it's upsetting when things change and they're no longer in complete control of "licenses." Before, they could guarantee that the sale of said licenses would make up for their investments, and as time grew, so did the initial investments, assuming that the number of sales would also follow. Then, file-sharing came into the picture, and now in order to survive, they either have to fight file-sharing with more sophisticated copy prevention, or change their model in order to succeed in this new environment. What model is that? I really don't know, I'm not an expert, all I know is that the water's getting thicker so they're going to either have to swim a lot harder or find another way to keep afloat.
OhhSnap :
Here. Let me give you a new analogy, elaborating on the one I made in another one of my posts.
Let's say I decide I'm going to make and sell cars. I open my own business, start making cars, and begin selling them to people. For a while, my business is successful, until one day I notice people start showing up to my car lot with weird looking devices in their hands. They begin walking up to the cars I've made, move the shiny metal devices over them, and then a few feet away on the street, a carbon copy of my cars appear out of thin air. These people walk over to these newly created cars, get in them, and drive off.
Let's break this down:
First off, there's no guarantee that these people who came to my lot with these magical devices would have purchased a car in the first place. They may have just been there to simply duplicate my cars, and wouldn't have shown up otherwise. So even though I'm not making money from these people, they're not TAKING money or property AWAY from me.
Second, I still own everything I've paid for. I initially paid the factory workers to produce these cars, and as such, these cars are now mine. They belong to me. However, the duplicated cars, although exactly the same as my own cars, didn't require any additional time, effort, or money for me to create. As such, even though I created the idea and design for these cars, those physical cars didn't cost me anything to make/produce.
Finally, my business might be failing now thanks to these magical car duplication devices. However, that doesn't mean that these people are stealing my cars, they're duplicating them. Some people might be using the duplication devices instead of purchasing cars from me, while others might simply be using them because they exist, and if they didn't have them, they still wouldn't end up purchasing a car. There's no way to tell for sure who would do what if these devices didn't exist. However, my failing business is a direct result of my investment failing to make returns in a market where my "tried n' true" business model simply does not hold water any longer. I chose to continue to pay my factory workers to produce cars, and I still own the cars they've produced for me. I'm entitled to nothing further.
Is it right what they're doing? According to the law, no it's not. However, there's a new word for what they're doing, since they're using my intellectual rights without my permission. It's called copyright violation, and it's vastly different from stealing. Say those people went out and then sold their duplicated versions of my cars, then I would be entitled to that money because someone is making a profit from my own idea. That's how it works, but please, please, PLEASE can we stop calling pirating software "stealing"?
Let's say I decide I'm going to make and sell cars. I open my own business, start making cars, and begin selling them to people. For a while, my business is successful, until one day I notice people start showing up to my car lot with weird looking devices in their hands. They begin walking up to the cars I've made, move the shiny metal devices over them, and then a few feet away on the street, a carbon copy of my cars appear out of thin air. These people walk over to these newly created cars, get in them, and drive off.
Let's break this down:
First off, there's no guarantee that these people who came to my lot with these magical devices would have purchased a car in the first place. They may have just been there to simply duplicate my cars, and wouldn't have shown up otherwise. So even though I'm not making money from these people, they're not TAKING money or property AWAY from me.
Second, I still own everything I've paid for. I initially paid the factory workers to produce these cars, and as such, these cars are now mine. They belong to me. However, the duplicated cars, although exactly the same as my own cars, didn't require any additional time, effort, or money for me to create. As such, even though I created the idea and design for these cars, those physical cars didn't cost me anything to make/produce.
Finally, my business might be failing now thanks to these magical car duplication devices. However, that doesn't mean that these people are stealing my cars, they're duplicating them. Some people might be using the duplication devices instead of purchasing cars from me, while others might simply be using them because they exist, and if they didn't have them, they still wouldn't end up purchasing a car. There's no way to tell for sure who would do what if these devices didn't exist. However, my failing business is a direct result of my investment failing to make returns in a market where my "tried n' true" business model simply does not hold water any longer. I chose to continue to pay my factory workers to produce cars, and I still own the cars they've produced for me. I'm entitled to nothing further.
Is it right what they're doing? According to the law, no it's not. However, there's a new word for what they're doing, since they're using my intellectual rights without my permission. It's called copyright violation, and it's vastly different from stealing. Say those people went out and then sold their duplicated versions of my cars, then I would be entitled to that money because someone is making a profit from my own idea. That's how it works, but please, please, PLEASE can we stop calling pirating software "stealing"?
I really don't know how much more clear I can be on the subject, and quite frankly I'm disappointed if you still want to be ignorant and equate two very different things.