Video Game Piracy is not a problem, its a Symptom of a Problem (LONG)

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robwright

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[quotemsg=1658378,85,51677]Rob do you really feel that the way the gaming industry works on the market is good or do you feel it needs to change? Also do you think that piracy is only ever caused by greed or do you think that some of it could be caused by how games publishers are distributing there content?[/quotemsg]

First question: yes, the game industry needs to change. Games are becoming far to expensive to make and thus, the return on investment is being put at risk. At this rate, we'll see higher prices for games and probably more and more developers going out of business. Second, walk into any major retail store here in the U.S. and look at the PC gaming shelves. They're pathetically small. Perhaps the new PC Gaming Alliance will help, but I have my doubts. Third, publishers need to take a page from Valve's playbook -- Steam isn't perfect, but it's the best game in town for digital distribution. These are just a couple things off the top of my head. I'm not even going to touch hardware requirements.

Second question: from my personal experience as a gamer as well as years of reporting, the majority of piracy is a crime of convenience and greed rather than some type of nobel quality control effort to protect yourself against corporate theives and a broken PC gaming business model. As I've stated on here and other threads, I believe it's entirely feasible to be a selective consumer and use your dollars wisely without resorting to piracy. Is it difficult? Hell yes. But it's the right way, and no one ever said doing the right thing was easy. Yes, I'll admit that a small percentage of people download games to test them before they buy them, but in my experience, those gamers do not represent the majority. Just read through and read the posts from unapologetic pirates who feel they're justified to take what they want because all games suck and they're not worth "their" hard-earned money. These are the same folks that will pirate it game and PLAY THROUGH THE ENTIRE GAME and then turn around and claim they never would have paid for it, so what's the big deal, it's not hurting anyone. They don't believe they owe the publishers or developers anything after playing through 10, 15, or even 20 hours of a game if they can turn around and say, "oh, this game sucks, I'd never pay for it." And I guess that's a philosophical difference between me and a lot of folks on this thread.
 

Oh Snap

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Now if I can try to paraphrase your argument:
Okay...

You're saying that because you are not physically stealing the game, then it is morally right to play the pirated copy. Which leads to saying that if you download the torrent, which allows you to play the full game for free, then it would not be stealing if you had no intention to purchase it in the first place, right?
Eeeeeek. I didn't, and have never argued that it is morally "right" to pirate games or software. It's ambiguous at best. The real point I've tried to convey in my arguments is that piracy can have moral shades of gray, whereas stealing is a much more black and white issue. Additionally, I'm fully aware of the laws, and the fact that the companies put forth investments, as well as the fact that our capitalistic society has a difficult time accepting that one man may be benefiting from another's work without compensation doesn't necessarily HURT the man who put in all that work. We feel we should be compensated for everything we've done (and I'm not arguing that this is totally invalid, by the way), and have a tough time realizing that a lot of the work being done is part of an initial investment.

I really wish you guys would understand that I'm not at the front lines here defending piracy, but simply trying to distinguish the valid points against (and for) piracy from the invalid ones. Piracy can, and on some level does affect game and software companies based on the circumstances. If piracy was 100% gone, game companies would, I'm sure, have increased profits. Again, you say "then it would not be stealing if you had no intention..." It just wouldn't be stealing. It'd be copyright infringement in either circumstance, whether you intended to buy it or not. I'm saying the EFFECT on the industry, which seems to be the primary and most logical argument against piracy, would be the same if I pirate a game or if I simply choose not to purchase it. I'm not saying that the two situations are identical, because obviously the pirate derives some benefit from the industry's work without compensation. I'm simply saying the effect on the industry itself remains the same. If someone WOULD purchase a game, but found a torrent on some website instead, then obviously that's one person who was persuaded not to purchase something. He hasn't stolen money from the industry, but he's chosen not to compensate them because he can get their work for free somewhere else. In that case, the industry has "lost" some potential profit, where if piracy didn't exist, they'd have made an extra $50. That's why I've been saying it depends on the circumstances, and whether or not you agree with piracy, you must acknowledge that if an individual has zero intent to purchase a game, and ends up playing the pirated version, the effect on the industry is identical. If you object to people having fun for free, then that's another argument you could make against piracy, but my argument is really a rebuttal for the people who are so up in arms about piracy simply because of the effect on the industry.
 

Alex The PC Gamer

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Oh Snap, I see where you're going. IMO, people who download that "torrent" want to play the game (otherwise they wouldn't waste so much bandwidth and time over it). That being said, if you want to play a game and play the game (but a pirated copy), you're stealing.

I agree that there is no primary extra cost to deliver product(actually there is now, implementing DRM), but they are not getting the compensation they deserve from each pirated copy. It's hurting the industry.
 

Oh Snap

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[quotemsg=1658425,90,151693]Oh Snap, I see where you're going. IMO, people who download that "torrent" want to play the game (otherwise they wouldn't waste so much bandwidth and time over it).[/quotemsg]
But they might not be willing to drop $50 on it, so even if they didn't have the option to play the pirated version (which really is pretty quick and requires almost no effort, just a few seconds to download the .torrent and then let it dl in the background), they still wouldn't buy it. There's different levels of interest. Someone might be motivated enough by their interest in a game to download the torrent and play it for a little bit, but might not be motivated enough to spend $50 on it. You might not agree with that attitude, and think that anyone who's interested enough to play a game at all should pay for it (and that's a fair argument, but that's entirely based on your own morals). However, the option exists, so many people who don't share the same subjective morals as you might use that option while it's around instead.
 
Lets see, if I went to a movie and didnt like it, that means I should just sneak in for free next time since if I went when there were plenty of seats it wouldnt hurt anyone, and that way, if the movie sucked, no harm no foul? Yea, keep thinking that way, underachieving and freebie. Now try and go back to the manager and let him know you snuck in, but you liked the movie, so youre going to make it "right". Yeah sure. Piracy comes from pirating, which people still do roday, and did in the past. Basically, they (the pirates) would go where no one else could reach them, and take other peoples things. Sound familiar? So this is ok too. Well, all you bart simpsons out there, youre all jerks, because if youre attitude is, if you dont get caught its ok, then go do it in the movies, hell even rent a boat and pirate out on the high seas, but leave pc gaming alone, as the pickings are getting slim, ok?
 

Oh Snap

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Lets see, if I went to a movie and didnt like it, that means I should just sneak in for free next time since if I went when there were plenty of seats it wouldnt hurt anyone, and that way, if the movie sucked, no harm no foul?
Whoa, what? That doesn't even make sense. Bad analogy, you're trespassing and using/dirtying their facilities, as well as taking up a seat that someone else could sit in. Can we please stop using physical property for analogies with piracy? Go ahead and "steal" my code dude, just stay out of my house and leave my TV alone.

Basically, they (the pirates) would go where no one else could reach them, and take other peoples things. Sound familiar?
Lol, so you're comparing boarding and pillaging someone else's ship, and then (often) either killing the crew or leaving them to die on the open sea with no supplies with copying data from one hard drive to another? Awesome.

Hey, while we're making crazy-****-out-there analogies, here's one for you: I spend months working my ass off to create a 30 ft. tall statue of Steve Carell giving a thumbs up, and I put up a sign that says "photos of Steve Carell statue, $50". A good number of people stop by and pay me $50, I hand them a polaroid of the statue. But then one night looking out my window, I notice people from across the street are taking their own photos of my statue. MY statue. That I built with MY hard work. The nerve. So I put up a big fence and hire a guard with a gun to stand by and let paying customers in. So what if the guard gets a little rough with the customers, maybe checks them for cameras of their own before letting them in, I need to make sure my work is protected. But what the ****? Some douchebag across the street is just taking pictures over the fence from his roof. And then he's just developing the photos and handing them out at his house for free. All of a sudden my paying customers don't even bother coming across the fence, dealing with the ******* guard, they just go right to Mr. douchebag across the street to get free photos. He's killing my livelihood, that ****.

but leave pc gaming alone, as the pickings are getting slim, ok?
If you're worried about the industry failing, telling people to "leave pc gaming alone" isn't going to save it. You should be telling people "HEY BUY LOTS OF GAMES PLEASE," not, "if youre going to pirate games just don't play games at all." Buy a 2nd game for a friend or something, and get them into it. Seriously if you're that worried about the PC gaming industry dying, there's lots more you can do besides argue with pirates on tomshardware. Seriously.
 

SnareSpectre

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Haha, I must say, I love this thread - for all of its wackiness and insight. Oh Snap, I was at odds with a lot of the off-the-wall analogies you wrote earlier in this thread, but you brought up something I actually agree with more recently.

But they might not be willing to drop $50 on it, so even if they didn't have the option to play the pirated version (which really is pretty quick and requires almost no effort, just a few seconds to download the .torrent and then let it dl in the background), they still wouldn't buy it.

That's exactly how I feel about piracy, where my torrent downloading is concerned. I've played several games I've pirated all the way through, but even if I didn't have the option to pirate them, I would not spend the money to buy them. I know our friend RobWright disagrees with this strongly and paints me along with several other "pirates" with the greed brush (on a side note, I completely understand this; with his views he is in no position to condone any sort of piracy if his words are going to help put a stop to it, especially from his position within this company), but I look at it this way - my roommate owns an Xbox 360 and Halo 3. I have clocked several hours on that game, and despite the fact that I think it is one of the most overrated game franchises in history, it's still a lot of fun to play multiplayer with all 3 of my roommates at once. We just sign on to Xbox LIVE and go at it for a few hours every few days during our free time, and it's a blast. Several times I've gone and played by myself on Xbox LIVE because, when the bullcrap is at a minimum (don't get me started on how unbalanced and unpredictable the melee system, headshots, etc. are in that game), the game is a lot of fun to play. I've gotten way more than $60 worth of gameplay out of that game, and I'll admit - I had, and still have, a lot of fun playing it. Now given everything one has just read, I still would not have paid $60 to buy the game! Assume my roommate never bought the game. Also pretend that Rob Wright and Ben Meyer told me the game would blow my mind, Jeff Gerstman (sp) from Gamespot gave it a 10.5, and IGN decided to redo their site with only Halo 3-related media because it was supposed to be the most mad-1337 game ever conceived, I would still not pay to play the game. Instead, I would sit quietly and wish I could play it, but realize that I don't have the $60+ to spend on Halo 3, its over-priced map packs, and scratch protection to keep that cookie monster of a console system from eating my game. (My roommate's already on his third Halo 3 disc...don't play Xbox 360 without protection, kids) In the same way, I may play and enjoy a mediocre game that I download and don't pay for, but would not otherwise pay for anyway; therefore, from a company's standpoint, my action has not changed a thing.

I know what I just said is a different version of what's already been argued for or against several times already on this thread, but I haven't posted on here in a while, so I decided I'd go ahead and throw in another opinion.
 

Oh Snap

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bought_games.jpg

These are the games I've purchased after pirating, just in my steam list (highlighted). If I hadn't pirated them first, I wouldn't have bought them, because the Half-Life 2 gameplay movies really were lacking, and I don't recall there being decent demos for these games. Also, you could technically throw CS:S in there as well, since I bought it in the same package with HL2.

Can we agree that in this case, my piracy didn't hurt the industry? And if so, that means that we can also agree that not ALL piracy is bad. Can we at least agree on that?
 

inglburt

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"If you're worried about the industry failing, telling people to "leave pc gaming alone" isn't going to save it. You should be telling people "HEY BUY LOTS OF GAMES PLEASE," not, "if youre going to pirate games just don't play games at all." Buy a 2nd game for a friend or something, and get them into it. Seriously if you're that worried about the PC gaming industry dying, there's lots more you can do besides argue with pirates on tomshardware. Seriously."

So you think the game developers are just lying about pirates hurting profits to the point of them saying screw PC's, we're not making any PC exclusive titles anymore, maybe we'll just throw out a few ports a year or 2 after the console release. Kinda like taking a sidejob on the weekend to make a couple extra bucks. What could the real conspiracy be eh?
Yeah it bugs me that people get things for free that I don't cause i feel it's not right, but I does really bug me that theiving bastards are potentially ruining it for the honest PC fans.
I guess on the bright side, I shouldn't have to upgrade my system till the new consoles come out cause all we're gonna get are subpar console ports that don't do justice to the computer's potential.
If a guy dl's a game to try out and then buys the game, then so be it. But if you think you are going to tell me that all those hundreds of thousands of people dl'ing the games, and have it in their possession are going to have the integrity to actually go and pay money for it later your wacked.
And the fact that you can't wrap your head around the fact that the code in a game is not property is just retarded. If a company spends millions of dollars and several years of many people's time to design and write a game for the purpose of selling it for profit and to pay people wages to live on, but you think it's not a physical thing you can hold in your hand so it's not stealing.
So what do you think is the biggest problem with PC gaming then? Just curious. What should we all do to help? By the way, with all the thousands of dollars you have in your system, it doesn't appear that coming by money is too big of an issue with you Oh Snap.
 

jalek

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Console sales were up 33% last quarter, that's in a billion dollar market.
That's huge, meanwhile PC gaming was flat.

That's why they're talking consoles more than anything, they SHOULD be trying to get into that market if they're after profits.
 
[quotemsg=1658442,93,169699]
Lets see, if I went to a movie and didnt like it, that means I should just sneak in for free next time since if I went when there were plenty of seats it wouldnt hurt anyone, and that way, if the movie sucked, no harm no foul?
Whoa, what? That doesn't even make sense. Bad analogy, you're trespassing and using/dirtying their facilities, as well as taking up a seat that someone else could sit in. Can we please stop using physical property for analogies with piracy? Go ahead and "steal" my code dude, just stay out of my house and leave my TV alone.

Basically, they (the pirates) would go where no one else could reach them, and take other peoples things. Sound familiar?
Lol, so you're comparing boarding and pillaging someone else's ship, and then (often) either killing the crew or leaving them to die on the open sea with no supplies with copying data from one hard drive to another? Awesome.

Hey, while we're making crazy-****-out-there analogies, here's one for you: I spend months working my ass off to create a 30 ft. tall statue of Steve Carell giving a thumbs up, and I put up a sign that says "photos of Steve Carell statue, $50". A good number of people stop by and pay me $50, I hand them a polaroid of the statue. But then one night looking out my window, I notice people from across the street are taking their own photos of my statue. MY statue. That I built with MY hard work. The nerve. So I put up a big fence and hire a guard with a gun to stand by and let paying customers in. So what if the guard gets a little rough with the customers, maybe checks them for cameras of their own before letting them in, I need to make sure my work is protected. But what the ****? Some douchebag across the street is just taking pictures over the fence from his roof. And then he's just developing the photos and handing them out at his house for free. All of a sudden my paying customers don't even bother coming across the fence, dealing with the ******* guard, they just go right to Mr. douchebag across the street to get free photos. He's killing my livelihood, that ****.

but leave pc gaming alone, as the pickings are getting slim, ok?
If you're worried about the industry failing, telling people to "leave pc gaming alone" isn't going to save it. You should be telling people "HEY BUY LOTS OF GAMES PLEASE," not, "if youre going to pirate games just don't play games at all." Buy a 2nd game for a friend or something, and get them into it. Seriously if you're that worried about the PC gaming industry dying, there's lots more you can do besides argue with pirates on tomshardware. Seriously.[/quotemsg]
With an analogy like what you give then comes to this. Since what you typed is nothing but electrons, and I dont know if youve actually typed it, being a nonphysical thing, then therefore your point is worthless, so is your point of view etc etc etc. Look, this is a proper analogy, you may notr like it, but stop with the physical and electron crap. In essence, a copyright is nothing more than paper. I dont like surrender. I dont like thievery. I dont like stealing. In any form, and also in theory. If you choose to back down to the point of your front door fine. But I say, I dont want em that close, cause I have neighbors, friends and businesses they get to before they get to me, and Ill take my share of resposibility to guard these things. Go ahead, and give up, but when theyre at your door, and in your pc, and in your tvv etc... who ya gonna call? heheh
 

llama_man

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[quotemsg=1658308,70,47884]Well, since you asked, Cafuddled, I suggest you try this: stop pirating because it's unethical and illegal and instead be more selective about how you spend your money. In other words, don't buy any PC games unless you're nearly certain that it will be a good investment. Talk to your friends, read reviews that you trust, play demos, etc. Save your money for StarCraft 2 or whatever title you think we'll be worth it. And then screw the rest. That way, you're sticking it to the so-called bad developers that you feel are trying to rip you off and still maintaining a ethical stance while staying on the right side of the law. Use you're power as a consumer the right way.[/quotemsg]

Amen. *applauds*


By the way; it's spelled "your", journalism-boy *snigger*
 

Alex The PC Gamer

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Oh Snap:

I'm about to give up but here's my last attempt. People who download the torrents(the full version, pirated) have an interest in playing the game(I don't care what you say). Once again, if you like playing videogames and you spend hours of entertainment playing that videogame then you owe compensation to the publisher. That being said, you downloaded the pirated versions of Valve games and then purchased it. Well, you're probably one of the few who does it. Everyone else is simply downloading and playing the game without purchasing it when they are done.

To prove this, find the number of torrents that have been downloaded from good games versus poor games. If you look at the number of downloads of games like Crysis or COD4, you'll notice the numbers are very high (compared to other titles who received less attention). If you're a FPS type gamer and you don't purchase say COD4 or Crysis... after the hype, the videos, the near perfect reviews, why would you choose another title? Hell, both games even have a demo allowing you to actually try the game before making your 50$ decision. So, why is Crysis and COD4 the most popular torrents nowadays? Why is it that COD4 is selling like hot cakes on the consoles??? You argument makes sense...for 0.000001% of the population.

The reason why pirated copies are so frustrating is because those who download pirated copies are convincing themselves that there are exeptions under which it is ok to pirate a game. If you play the game (full retail version), then you owe a compensation. If you didn't plan on purchasing the game, that's also you're power as a consumer, but don't turn around and download the torrent, play for hours, and argument that it's justifiable because it's not.
 

Oh Snap

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[quotemsg=1658456,98,68270]With an analogy like what you give then comes to this. Since what you typed is nothing but electrons, and I dont know if youve actually typed it, being a nonphysical thing, then therefore your point is worthless, so is your point of view etc etc etc. Look, this is a proper analogy, you may notr like it, but stop with the physical and electron crap. In essence, a copyright is nothing more than paper. I dont like surrender. I dont like thievery. I dont like stealing. In any form, and also in theory. If you choose to back down to the point of your front door fine. But I say, I dont want em that close, cause I have neighbors, friends and businesses they get to before they get to me, and Ill take my share of resposibility to guard these things. Go ahead, and give up, but when theyre at your door, and in your pc, and in your tvv etc... who ya gonna call? heheh[/quotemsg]
So did you actually have any kind of point to make or did you just come into this thread to troll and write like an idiot?
 

Oh Snap

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I'm about to give up but here's my last attempt. People who download the torrents(the full version, pirated) have an interest in playing the game(I don't care what you say).
First off, let me just say that I always think the best way to have any kind of an argument is to say "Here's my opinion, I don't care what you think." Second, all we know about someone who pirates a game is that they have enough interest in it to download a .torrent and let the game download for a few hours in the background. That's it. Anything else is entirely speculation. I'm saying that just because someone's motivated enough to download a game and play it for free, that doesn't mean that they're motivated enough to buy it. Some pirates might be, and they just go with the free option instead, but not all are. Just because you're interested enough to play one of the games at gamestop on the xbox360 for a few minutes doesn't mean you're interested enough to buy it. It's a free, easy option to play the game, and it's convenient since it's right there. That's how torrents are.

We obviously disagree when it comes to our moral views, and I don't think any debate is going to change that. You feel that playing a game that someone else made, regardless of whether it's actually good, or whether you play it for 10 minutes or 10 hours, is wrong. I think that downloading a full retail copy of a game and playing it for a while to see if it's actually something you would want to play online with your friends, play through, etc. is, at the very least, less wrong than 10 hours, and I'm personally alright with being less wrong.

You argument makes sense...for 0.000001% of the population.
You don't need to be insulting with fake numbers. My argument DOES make sense, for quite a few people I'm sure. As I said, I'm not here to defend every pirate, I'm sure in some ways it hurts the industry, but I've come here to defend my case, because myself and many other people on these forums still support the game industry, and in some cases piracy has benefitted it. I think making an all-encompassing "PIRACY IN ALL FORMS IS WRONG AND EVIL" is an ignorant argument to make. That's all.
 

Alex The PC Gamer

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Oh Snap:

I'm sorry, I was working on a document when I replied and didn't write what I ment to say.... That 0.00001%, is how many of you actually purchase games after playing the game with the pirated copy. You do have an argument nonetheless. I do agree that in some circumstances it may even benefit the publisher (especially those games that don't have demos out). However, in most cases, it destroys the industry.

You're also right; we don't have the same moral values when it comes to piracy. I believe in capitalism where as you believe in your argument. That's your call and I apologize if ever intended to offend you.

I just think your argument is a little weak when you put it into practice. I was trying to say that most people just steal the game..and don't pay or have any other intention but to play the game for free. Argumenting that even if you were never going to purchase the game in the first place, and playing the cracked version is ok, is simply a moral debate. But answer this: Why is it affecting sales so much then? Could it be because the majority of people have stopped purchasing those games and downloaded the torrents instead?
 

martin0642

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Well I'm back from my little jaunt around the country, I read all the replies, and think I'll try and distill some of this down and hone some things I thought were of value.

I started this thread because I wanted to see what people think. Articles only do so much good because they are one way, and often come from the perspective of people like RobWright who have in most cases a predictable perspective. I do appreciate his participation, and think he brings up a lot of good points. I usually bring up different points of view just to investigate their validity, not because I personally hold them, so I can tweak my views here and there and try to get a better handle on things. Several people here have made reference to people speaking here just because their hidden in an online cloak and that in real life they would never be so bolt as to make certain claims. I view this as a plus. In the physical world there are many factors which often intimidate people from being honest, and the internet gives the same intellectual freedom of discussion to people which is rare in the physical world, be they a 90lb Thai female or a massive power lifter. I wanted ideas from all comers, and that's just what I got.

So the ideas have been swirling around in this pot, and even at the most bare of minimums I think it's brought some awareness to the subject to the forefront of peoples minds. We've had a lot less posts than views, but I think some interesting things have come floating to the top. So no matter which side people are on here, I think the discourse has been reasonably tame (not vulgar) and I think that the tone of the discussions indicates that people really do want a way to do things above the table, that there are many ways which might work, and many that don't.

Here are some points I thought were of note numerically, when replying it might be useful to reference the reply to the idea offered:

1. Bandwidth limits wont work, because it does not address the issue at hand which is the motivation to steal. A real solution targets the problem at its core, and does not try taking a circular path which might have a side effect which is desirable. You can cure chronic pain by simply killing people, but it might not be the best answer. Also, this idea makes many assumptions about bandwidth usage rates, how it will expand, future uses, how many people live in the home, if they have a VPN which is always racking up time, or if they link their lan across 2 homes in geographically different places. I dont mind paying for speed of access, and I do with a 30/30 FiOS connection, but bandwidth limits make no sense. There are no physical analogues to this because its digital. You can watch unlimited TV, its a digital service, its just on. It's not like the water bill.

2. Morality is relative. It is different across cultures, and even neighbors and spouses and parents disagree over issues. I don't think arguments over morals are very helpful to finding a solution to piracy because its just not human nature. We're barbaric, we lie, cheat, steal, and generally run amok. Much research has been done, and even when people morally oppose things, when asked again if they would do something if there was a 100% chance that no one would ever find out, they usually do it if theres enough personal gain. People suck, so basing ideas on "should" always break down because of person to person relativity. I would like to see some ideas that aren't based on should, and would directly address the problem at hand with a solution. Ideas that, if instituted, would compel even the most morally deficient degenerate to operate above table simply because its not worth the effort to do otherwise.

DRM is an example of DRM companies making a profit by lying to developers by telling them it would stop piracy and raise profits, and that's never happened. Instead they lose profit paying the DRM industry. All DRM has done is challenge hackers, and annoy real customers. Steam is an example of a service which adds value to legit customers, gives incentive to purchase things legally, and denies certain features to those who choose to pirate. It address the issue directly, with no flimsy morality used as the glue to hold it together, practicality and real-world applicability are key. I think that since effort is more universally constant than morality, if you push the cost/effort ratio to strike a balance, piracy will be a fringe issue of the truly destitute or the people who just want to see if they can do it (like Razor 911, ect...)

3. Piracy is not some magical PC only issue. When I bought Atari games, I traded with my friends. Thus, they never bought those. People might buy a single DVD, and loan it to 50 friends over the course of a DVDs lifespan. There is a practical difference since digital media is infinity duplicated, but the "moral" implications are one and the same. Entertainment was viewed by someone who did not pay the creators. This is why I think we need new ideas to fit new paradigms that are popping up as a result of the spread of high-speed connections.

What if I had a personal "Library" account that I owned, and it had all my digital ownership, available to me where ever I went, or even my phone. So I go to a pals house, authenticate, and watch a movie that I paid 5 bucks to add to my library. My friend likes it, so he pays 1 dollar to add it to his, because he might wanna show it to his other friends later. He might not watch it for 20 years again, but he didn't have to front all 5 bucks, and the creators got an extra buck of profit because of person-to-person advertising. Maybe 5 pals gather at the home of the man with the big THX rig and all chip in for a 5 man group discount to add a single flick to all their libraries, watch it there and still have access to it together. People like going in on halves for things, physical ones are shared but digital ones are shared at nearly zero cost to the creator. People like collecting things, and sharing. If digital buying/selling/bartering was as simple and accessible as flea market deals, I think people would flock to it.

4. Single format development is shooting yourself in the foot, especially as tech marches forward and many platforms are more and more compatible. Even cross-platform-multiplayer should be the norm if controls are put into place for certain kinds of rooms and maps, to deal with platform specific advantages in certain titles.

5. DRM is usually seen as shoving stuff down people throats, and fosters resentment. I bet DRM companies are the ones planting and seeding many stories and coming up with funny numbers to convince developers that there are "untold riches" just beyond the horizon if only more cash was given to develop more and more DRM. DRM is a business model which makes money off piracy, they dont want it to go away.

6. The "testing argument" is of dubious claim because when your done, you don't get any benefit other than self-satisfaction from paying for games. Demos can often be misleading though, and in many cases the online play and patching ease compel many to buy games they already pirated. In this case, the single player served as a demo.

7. There is almost no consumer protection for digital items. EULAs are made by lawyers to screw people out rights granted to them by the laws of most nations, and that kind of boilerplate legal crap prevents you from doing anything useful if the software is junk. Stores wont take games back, but why? Pirates dont bother returning them to the store, they dont even go to the store in most cases, they just download them. Regular folks most likely return things that don't work, and software is not diminished by being returned (unless its scratched) as some other items are (used toothbrush anyone?)

Games are released that sometimes take years to patch, and there is no regulation or anything over the developers for this. Class action lawsuits over unpatched games might work, I don't know if this has been tried. I do realize making a perfect game is not going to happen with diverse software and stupid end users, but the current "public beta" that most things are when they hit shelves is not accepted in other markets, and should not be allowed here either. This goes for games, operating systems, productivity and business software.

If my Belkin surge protector fails to protect me, they pay me for damages. If Roboform spams the world with my credit card company, they should be held liable, because when I paid for it there is a contract between them and I. I give money, they protect my stuff and make buying things easier. If I fail to pay, they dont give me software. If they fail to protect, I should get damages. If Battlefield 2142 cant move a Titan without crashing the server, their not giving me the 64 player online experience that I bought it for. I'd like reasonable ideas on this, or at least to explore the issue. Maybe within 2 weeks of an issue, they need to fix it or some type of action results. Rebates to players? Discounts on next purchases? I'm not sure, but something needs to be done, and feet held to the fire.

If EA cant do it because they have gotten used to a certain release cycle and aren't willing to lower earnings to raise quality, then they need to go under, and the licenses auctioned off to others to liquidate debt. I have no interest in what a company thinks its going to make, or expects, or thinks it deserves. Companies that fail to make things at the right price/quality point go away and make room for others, that's capitalism. Maybe some group from India can do more quality for less investment, good for them. Until they pork-barrel out and get beat to the market by a new startup with a better cost/quality ratio and go out of business or buy them out. I only care about them giving me what I paid for, just like anything else. Failing that, a fair compensation or refund mechanism is needed.

8. Analogies from the physical realm seldom apply to the digital. Legally, things do. Like expecting my OS to work, and also my car. Also the OS that runs (Minix usually) my ABS system. Laws and ideas apply, making parallels that involve duplication and sharing don't usually fair well. Guarantees also apply, as they are used to sell more units of whatever. A digital guarantee is worth the same as a physical one.

9. Like someone stated before, all the muck about Crysis could have been avoided with proper market research. If I design a product that people want, ramp up production, advertise and hire all these people and promises to investors and stick products on shelves and they sell like hotcakes the first week that's great. Then if someone posts a YouTube video on how to use some cheap common object to duplicate the idea, and then purchases slow down, whose fault is that? Does the poster of that video owe me money? I patented the idea! I had expectations! Well maybe he does owe you, but who cares he's in Cuba! This is why I say morality needs to take a bow to practicality. ANYONE making a next gen game, with those hardware requirements, on a single platform release, would have to be dense to think they would rake in billions and have Bugatti Veyrons falling from the sky around them. They can sit on high-ground all day, and it wont earn them crap, and piracy wont abate one bit. That was just stupid, and doomed to fail from day one. You might as well make audiophile headphones with radio shack parts and expect people to pay 500 for the set, some might. Or they'll just look at them in the window and build their own. Market research, multi-platform development, fair pricing, online distribution and lots of extras only for legit online accounts would have been much more profitable.

10. Law is not a basis for morality, its a system of guidelines and punishments. We have the death penalty, we still have murder and rape and everything else. Making an "example" only works in small groups where people feel personally attached. It wont work globally, only economics can. Even then, some bad things happen because people are, after all, people. Thats why stores factor in losses due to theft, its just not worth the cost of protecting against it. Law has also been hi-jacked by lobbies. Look at the Iraq war and Pharmaceutical companies. The second amendment is not there for hunting, its for keeping the government in check. American rights and freedoms are being eroded because private interests are taking hold over the masses, and by the time it hits the boiling point we'll be powerless to do anything about it. Try watching TV for 5 minutes without

11. What kind of profits do they expect? Did Crysis not make more than it cost to develop? The market is turning into an oligarchy, but is it because it more profitable to sellout to EA, then found new companies over and over than it is to just make a steady stream over time? It looks good on your resume! You made a company, had a hit game, then sold with windfall profits for all! Or you reinvested profit, developed more, and became Blizzard. If you sell you can get rich quick, use all that to make new companies, and use past success and sales to companies to convince banks that you can do it all over again. Right, Richard Garriot? At Crytek they have jobs...they didint go under...they are making new games still. How much of this is people looking at piracy rates and comparing "perfect world what if's" to real profits? How many bonuses do CEOs need? How many companies have actually gone under do to piracy, and not other things like people giving themselves massive bonuses after a hit game and not saving enough to bankroll the next one? Or changing everything in mid-development? This is not just the gaming industry that does these things. The same old crap is here, but this time we have piracy to point a finger at and blame, soon after the DRM sharks will be sniffing at all places that deal in Intellectual Products and mesmerizing their boardrooms with phantom earnings, for only a small fee...

12. I've seen that "if you cant afford it then don't play it" tossed around a bit. Like I said, morally fine, if simplistic and unenforceable. People just aren't going to take that ball and run with it. Where I live here in Reality, USA I cant begrudge that Romanian for stealing games. I know how he feels. Same for all those others who are just pretty dang poor (relativity here, might be GREAT locally on $500 a month for food, housing and internet and other stuff, until you realize a new US game is $50), or have parents that ignore them and find respite in gaming in general. I think that pricing models should really adapt to bring global economics into the fold, sometimes games are entertainment. For others it might be an escape from an otherwise meager or lonely existence.

13. I've gotten refunds for movies that sucked. I have even gotten refunds for meals that sucked. Some industries realize that total profits raise with quality of service until you reach diminishing returns. I don't think games, or any digital service, should be any different. Short term gains aren't worth long term losses.

So thats it, I hope at least one of these resonates with some people, and that we get some well thought out responses :)
 

Oh Snap

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[quotemsg=1658510,103,151693]I'm sorry, I was working on a document when I replied and didn't write what I ment to say.... That 0.00001%, is how many of you actually purchase games after playing the game with the pirated copy. You do have an argument nonetheless. I do agree that in some circumstances it may even benefit the publisher (especially those games that don't have demos out). However, in most cases, it destroys the industry.[/quotemsg]
I think we agree in this case (aside from the fake statistic you made up). I haven't tried to argue for every form of piracy, just against the argument that ALL forms of piracy are wrong (based on the argument that anything that hurts the industry is wrong).

But answer this: Why is it affecting sales so much then? Could it be because the majority of people have stopped purchasing those games and downloaded the torrents instead?
We don't know to what extent exactly piracy is affecting sales. I personally think some companies might overexaggerate lost profits due to piracy just because, well, it's always good in business when you can put the blame on someone else. It's all speculation. I've just objected to the fact that a lot of you on here read a quote from some game company CEO blaming piracy for all their woes and go "Look, you see? EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU THAT'S PIRATING GAMES ARE KILLING THE INDUSTRY!" That's the argument I've seen on here, 'if you pirate, you're hurting the industry'. I've just been making an argument against that. Not every pirate is hurting the industry, and I'm glad that at least some of you agree with me on some level finally.
 

Morton

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This is the way I see it. Game developers rely on publishers (EA, Activision Blizzard, Take-Two etc.). ATI/nVIDIA and graphics card manufacturers (eVGA, XFX, Asus etc.) rely on game developers and publishers in the sense that without gamers there will be little need for mid-range and high-end graphics cards for PC.

If the situation is really bad, PC game publishers should seek ways how to co-operate with graphics card manufacturers. The publishers could push for a 100$ raise of prices for all high-end graphics cards and a compulsory bundle of coupons which can be only redeemed for PC games released within the next 2-3 years after the graphics card purchase. After that, pirate or not, every person pays those extra 100$ during a graphics card upgrade for games. It's obvious that people will not want the money to go to waste and will find some games for which to redeem the coupons. Since this approach would tackle the piracy issue quite effectively, one game could be valued at 25$ instead of 50$.

Of course, graphics card manufacturers wouldn't be particularly happy with this approach because pirates buy their 300-500$ cards anyway. After all, you still need a good video card to run the newest PC games with great graphics. In fact, piracy could be one of the main factors contributing to the progress in graphics card technologies for the PC because in many cases a graphics card upgrade also includes the renewal of your PC game collection. Without a chance to get pirated games for free less people will be motivated to pay a lot of money for a nice new graphics card. As an example, I'm still using my 5-year-old Radeon 9700 because I know that spending 200-400$ for a new Geforce 8800 or Radeon 3870 will be kind of pointless without spending at least another 200-300$ on renewing my PC game collection with latest games. On the other hand, it does feel tempting to get a 200-400$ new graphics card and then spend 0$ on renewing the PC game collection through piracy. That way you could even spend the "saved" 200-300$ which you hadn't spend on the new games to buy a new graphics card next year. I suspect there are many people who fall for this type of temptation. If piracy was prevented completely, there will be more people like me who will upgrade their PC maybe once in 5-7 years. As a result, the sales of high-end graphics cards could decrease and new generations of graphics cards could appear more rarely.


To sum up, my main point is that piracy probably does hurt PC gaming industry, but a complete lack of piracy could hurt the PC graphics cards industry. Of course, excessive spread of piracy would probably hurt both industries.

 
Talk about writing like an idiot, who said anything about dirtying the theatre? Who said taking someone elses seats, when I said the opposite? You like putting words in others mouths, come up with some lame exscuse for your stealing, by paying for it sometimes, and I pointed out for you to try that at the movies. And what makes you think that dowloading someone elses IP isnt trespassing? Like you seem to do? My points are valid. My words are my words, not yours, but once again I see youre "borrowing " my words, just like you "borrow" video games. What a false sense of realism, to believe this tripe
 

Oh Snap

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[quotemsg=1658579,107,68270]Talk about writing like an idiot, who said anything about dirtying the theatre? Who said taking someone elses seats, when I said the opposite? You like putting words in others mouths, come up with some lame exscuse for your stealing, by paying for it sometimes, and I pointed out for you to try that at the movies. And what makes you think that dowloading someone elses IP isnt trespassing? Like you seem to do? My points are valid. My words are my words, not yours, but once again I see youre "borrowing " my words, just like you "borrow" video games. What a false sense of realism, to believe this tripe[/quotemsg]
It's a bad analogy, because yet again it's taking something entirely physical and comparing it with digital. Theaters get dirty from people coming in and sitting on the chairs, spilling soda and food. You're talking about physically walking into a theater and sneaking past the guy at the front (or just blatantly walking past him), and taking one of a finite number of seats, where, regardless of whether or not the theater is full, that's a seat that someone else can no longer sit in (if nothing else, you're limiting the choices of others entering the theater). So in the REAL world, where all of these factors actually DO come into play, I'd say no, you really shouldn't sneak into a movie theater. Plus, there really would be no need to, since most theaters will refund your ticket if you leave early on because you don't like the movie. I can't return a PC game if I play it for 20 minutes and realize it's garbage. If I could, I'd never pirate again, because I would just buy a game, try it out for a few, and if it sucked, I'd take it right back, just like I would do with a movie. To make your horrible analogy work, let's change a few things: There would be an infinite number of seats (to make it more comparable to copying a file), you absolutely AREN'T affecting anyone's choice for seats, you're not making any kind of a mess or contributing in any way to the maintenance fees associated with keeping the theater tidy, and you CANNOT get a refund if you were to buy a ticket and leave 20 minutes in. In that case, yeah, I don't see a problem with sneaking into a movie if you either leave a little ways in if it's bad (if it's really bad, you wouldn't stay for the whole thing), and pay for the movie at the front counter if you do indeed watch the whole thing. That's totally not the case though, which is why your analogy is terrible and you're obviously just pissy about piracy but can't come up with a good, logical reason. Next time, if you don't want someone to "put words in your mouth," how about you give a valid comparison instead of another **** analogy. Thanks :)
 
I was just wondering how someone who holds themselves to such high standards when it comes to piracy , and even higher ones in the "real" world would dare to even consider making a mess in such a scenario. And Ive already pointed out, thered have to be empty seats, just like open bandwidth, without it, youre still outside looking in. So, once again I fail to see your logic. If you hold yourself to such high standards then prove it. The way I see it is this way, they already have previews of games out, just like movies, heh, and people get a glimpse, just like for the games. Now of course youd expect to see some of the best from both previews which will give a slanted view of each, but thats the compromise, and if you insist on whether you illegally download (with those high standards in place of course) or illegally enter that movie theatre, non caveat emptor
 

Oh Snap

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So, once again I fail to see your logic.
That much is obvious.

And Ive already pointed out, thered have to be empty seats, just like open bandwidth, without it, youre still outside looking in.
Open bandwidth? What? How about you specifically compare each point of your movie theater analogy with piracy and explain what's what, because so far your analogy doesn't apply. If the seats are open bandwidth, then that means I'm already paying for the seats, right? Because I pay for my open bandwidth. I think you just figured you'd make a real world comparison with piracy without actually considering every aspect, and now you're wondering why I'm bringing up all these real world objections to sneaking into a movie theater.

"Hey, you'd have no problem stealing a car, right? Because you'd be getting something for free in both cases! It works!"

If you're going to make an analogy, make sure it applies all the way through, otherwise you're just saying, "Hey, here's a situation that's kind of similar to piracy in a couple of ways but completely different in others." It really adds nothing to the discussion.
 

Alex The PC Gamer

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Hey Oh Snap...just a little follow-up on our previous conversation.

I think we agree in this case (aside from the fake statistic you made up). I haven't tried to argue for every form of piracy, just against the argument that ALL forms of piracy are wrong (based on the argument that anything that hurts the industry is wrong).

I did make up that statistic (although I'm probably somewhat close to that assumption).

We don't know to what extent exactly piracy is affecting sales. I personally think some companies might overexaggerate lost profits due to piracy just because, well, it's always good in business when you can put the blame on someone else. It's all speculation.

You're right, I think some companies would turn around and say they failed because of piracy. Some are simply unfinished products and poor games as a whole. However, when you see an entire industry being affected by the same issue (game piracy) then you know that it is a little more than speculations. Numbers almost speak for themselves when it comes to sales. Both you and I won't be able to proove our arguments simply because we both don't have numbers to put on the table. But IMO, piracy would only be good if a particular game didn't have a demo, and only a portion of the game was cracked...leaving people who wanted more to go purchase the game. Otherwise, although piracy may help with marketing (word to mouth), it still overweights the overall piracy vs sales. Once again, IMO.

It's funny but I have to point out that the industry excludes one very important player; Blizzard. WOW is doing extremely well, in sales and in avoiding piracy issues. The company has manage to avoid the whole piracy issue by making the game online (log on to server to play - which authenticates your valid copy of the game), and I applaud them for it. I think they will use the same strategy for Starcraft II. I think online gaming is the key to avoid piracy issues anyways. Come to think about it, all the battelfield series and COD4 have done extremely well in sales...I wonder why?
 
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