Was this trap overpowered?

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Last night I ran my PCs through a slightly modified version of Goodman
Games' "The Sunless Garden" (replacing the bugbears with Clan Moulder
skaven and some of the big lunk humanoids and owlbears with rat ogres).

At one point a party rogue found a trap and failed to disable it. She
failed several times in a row and finally failed by more than 5 points,
suffering the trap's effects.

Check this out:

Poison Needle Trap: CR 3; mechanical; touch trigger, one shot only; lock
bypass (Open Lock DC 28); Atk +22 melee; Dmg poison (DC 23 Fort save or
2d6 permanent Con from lethal nerve agent; Search DC 28; Disable Device
DC 28 (break needle tip).

Rogue took 9 points of permanent Con loss, and the party cleric was able
to identify the poison with a Heal check roll of 35. This triggered a
round of discussion with the players about the lethality of the trap vs.
its CR. I compared it to the sample traps from the DMG and thought it
was obviously more powerful than they were, more like a CR 8 or 9 trap.
This still isn't too far above the party's power level (average party
level is about 8, and the rogue could have disarmed the trap on a die
roll of 12 or higher). It was the only threatening encounter in the
room, so it wasn't IMO so much overpowered as under-CRed.

What do you all think?

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:
> Poison Needle Trap: CR 3; mechanical; touch trigger, one shot only;
lock
> bypass (Open Lock DC 28); Atk +22 melee; Dmg poison (DC 23 Fort save
or
> 2d6 permanent Con from lethal nerve agent; Search DC 28; Disable
Device
> DC 28 (break needle tip).

> This still isn't too far above the party's power level (average
party
> level is about 8, and the rogue could have disarmed the trap on a die

> roll of 12 or higher). It was the only threatening encounter in the
> room, so it wasn't IMO so much overpowered as under-CRed.
>
> What do you all think?

Hmm, there are published rules sets for CR'ing traps, I don't like
them so I will ignore them.

Traps are very hard to CR in any case. For one thing they are often
all or nothing. For a second there are multiple chances to avoid the
entire effect. For a third unless the trap is covered by a monster,
there is substantial time presure, or the trap has a real chance to
kill it can't really cost the party anything much but time (and maybe
the cost of a spell or two).

Let's look at individual elements for this trap:
You can deal with this trap by:

1) Finding and disabling it.
2) Triggering it and having it miss.
3) Making your save.
4) Taking the damage and casting restoration.
5) Taking the damage and continuing.
6) Taking the damage and running home.
7) All Die.
8) Something else not obvious from your description.

Let's look at a level 3 party vs. this trap:

1) Finding and disabling it.
Yeh right, 6 ranks so he needs +2 Int and +2 wisdom to manage
this with two rolls of 20.... If he has a lens of detection the
spot is a bit easier, but not enough, and at level three the
odds are strongly against having the lens.

2) Triggering it and having it miss.
Well, at least a rolled 1 always works for this, but I don't see
how else level 3 is supposed to make +22 melee miss, that takes AC
25 for it to miss on anything but a 1.

3) Making your save.
Again, he can do it on a 20. Or if he is the rare Dwarvish or
Gnomish Con 20 level 3 Rogue with a cloak of resistance +1 he can
make this save on a 17 or higher. Yeh, right.

4) Taking the damage and casting restoration.
Restoration is a level 4 spell, the scrolls cost 380GP, if you
tell me these are standard items for your level 3 parties I will
consider you a moron.

5) Taking the damage and continuing.
Technically since all it has done is reduced your rogue to
worthlessness it has only cost the canonical level 3 party 1/4th
or so of its reasorces.... Do I really need to explain why this
is a stupid way to evaluate CR? (I will anyway, it's below.)

6) Taking the damage and running home.
Is losing to the trap, not defeating it.

7) All Die.
Like 6 only more so.

8) Something else not obvious from your description.
Unknown if there even is another way baring ending the campaign
and finding a different GM.

Basically (5) is the only plausible way a level 3 party can "win"
against this trap barring a roll of a natural 1 or 20 at the right
time. And while I agree that by the definitions of how to CR this
is a correct CR (it cost a bit less than 1/4th or so of the
reasorces available on average), as gameplay it is insane (autodeath,
with lose of all equipment, with no chance to spot it coming, Save
DC of 666, no SR, and no method of bringing the character back is
also only CR 3, or even CR 1 if aimed at a level 1 party by that
"logic").

Hence it is under CRed. I would say level 9 or so. Methods 1-4 are
all "hard" at level 9, but all plausible, cumulatively it is fairly
likely the party can deal with the trap at level 9.

If the dungeon has lots of wandering monsters, withdraw to rest/
recover is hard, or there is lots of time presure I would give an
additional ad hoc award. If there is no time presure at all I
would add hoc cut the EP in half.

DougL

 

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Werebat wrote:
> Poison Needle Trap: CR 3; mechanical; touch trigger, one shot only;
lock
> bypass (Open Lock DC 28); Atk +22 melee; Dmg poison (DC 23 Fort save
or
> 2d6 permanent Con from lethal nerve agent; Search DC 28; Disable
Device
> DC 28 (break needle tip).

> This still isn't too far above the party's power level (average
party
> level is about 8, and the rogue could have disarmed the trap on a die

> roll of 12 or higher). It was the only threatening encounter in the
> room, so it wasn't IMO so much overpowered as under-CRed.
>
> What do you all think?

Second try sending this, hope it doesn't show up twice.

Hmm, there are published rules sets for CR'ing traps, I don't like
them so I will ignore them.

Traps are very hard to CR in any case. For one thing they are often
all or nothing. For a second there are multiple chances to avoid the
entire effect. For a third unless the trap is covered by a monster,
there is substantial time presure, or the trap has a real chance to
kill it can't really cost the party anything much but time (and maybe
the cost of a spell or two).

Let's look at individual elements for this trap:
You can deal with this trap by:

1) Finding and disabling it.
2) Triggering it and having it miss.
3) Making your save.
4) Taking the damage and casting restoration.
5) Taking the damage and continuing.
6) Taking the damage and running home.
7) All Die.
8) Something else not obvious from your description.

Let's look at a level 3 party vs. this trap:

1) Finding and disabling it.
Yeh right, 6 ranks so he needs +2 Int and +2 wisdom to manage
this with two rolls of 20.... If he has a lens of detection the
spot is a bit easier, but not enough, and at level three the
odds are strongly against having the lens.

2) Triggering it and having it miss.
Well, at least a rolled 1 always works for this, but I don't see
how else level 3 is supposed to make +22 melee miss, that takes AC
25 for it to miss on anything but a 1.

3) Making your save.
Again, he can do it on a 20. Or if he is the rare Dwarvish or
Gnomish Con 20 level 3 Rogue with a cloak of resistance +1 he can
make this save on a 17 or higher. Yeh, right.

4) Taking the damage and casting restoration.
Restoration is a level 4 spell, the scrolls cost 380GP, if you
tell me these are standard items for your level 3 parties I will
consider you a moron.

5) Taking the damage and continuing.
Technically since all it has done is reduced your rogue to
worthlessness it has only cost the canonical level 3 party 1/4th
or so of its reasorces.... Do I really need to explain why this
is a stupid way to evaluate CR? (I will anyway, it's below.)

6) Taking the damage and running home.
Is losing to the trap, not defeating it.

7) All Die.
Like 6 only more so.

8) Something else not obvious from your description.
Unknown if there even is another way baring ending the campaign
and finding a different GM.

Basically (5) is the only plausible way a level 3 party can "win"
against this trap barring a roll of a natural 1 or 20 at the right
time. And while I agree that by the definitions of how to CR this
is a correct CR (it cost a bit less than 1/4th or so of the
reasorces available on average), as gameplay it is insane (autodeath,
with lose of all equipment, with no chance to spot it coming, Save
DC of 666, no SR, and no method of bringing the character back is
also only CR 3, or even CR 1 if aimed at a level 1 party by that
"logic").

Hence it is under CRed. I would say level 9 or so. Methods 1-4 are
all "hard" at level 9, but all plausible, cumulatively it is fairly
likely the party can deal with the trap at level 9.

If the dungeon has lots of wandering monsters, withdraw to rest/
recover is hard, or there is lots of time presure I would give an
additional ad hoc award. If there is no time presure at all I
would drop the EP about that for CR7 (takes a level 7 cleric to
cast restoration), and just figure they will take the shot and
come back later.

DougL

 

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DougL wrote:
>
> 5) Taking the damage and continuing.
>
> Basically (5) is the only plausible way a level 3 party can "win"
> against this trap barring a roll of a natural 1 or 20 at the right
> time.

Take 20 on the Search; a Rog3 w/6 ranks Search and a
decent Int or masterwork tool (+2 bonus) finds the
trap. Wiz3 casts /knock/, bypassing the trap (or the
party just accepts whatever consequences there may be
for breaking the lock).

No natural 20's needed. Perfectly plausible.

I imply no finding on the appropriateness of the trap's
published CR.

-Bluto

 

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Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> DougL wrote:
> >
> > 5) Taking the damage and continuing.
> >
> > Basically (5) is the only plausible way a level 3 party can "win"
> > against this trap barring a roll of a natural 1 or 20 at the right
> > time.
>
> Take 20 on the Search; a Rog3 w/6 ranks Search and a
> decent Int or masterwork tool (+2 bonus) finds the
> trap. Wiz3 casts /knock/, bypassing the trap (or the
> party just accepts whatever consequences there may be
> for breaking the lock).
>
> No natural 20's needed. Perfectly plausible.
>
> I imply no finding on the appropriateness of the trap's
> published CR.
>
> -Bluto


1) You can't assume a rogue will take 20 every time he searches for a
trap. It may be a good idea in theory but in practice it is not
practical. It can only be done if the party if guaranteed without a
shadow of a doubt no chance whatsoever of error knows that they have
all the time in the world to do whatever it is they're currently doing
with not one smidgen of something bad happening if they take too long.

2) You can't assume a wizard will not only have knowledge of Knock but
has it prepared at the time it is needed. What if it's in a prohibited
school of a specialist wizard? What if there's only a Sorcerer in the
party who chose not to learn that spell? It is ok for tasks to be
easier than others if a spellcaster has the right spell, but it is bad
form to have an automatic lose situation because a spellcaster doesn't
have the right spell handy without any knowledge whatsoever on the
player's part that spell will be needed.

Gerald Katz

 

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Werebat wrote:
> Last night I ran my PCs through a slightly modified version of Goodman
> Games' "The Sunless Garden" (replacing the bugbears with Clan Moulder
> skaven and some of the big lunk humanoids and owlbears with rat
> ogres) ....
>
> Poison Needle Trap: CR 3; [insane stats for CR 3, OK for CR 8)

Perhaps it's a typo or a misprint? Note that the number 3 is very
similar to 8 visually. If somebody mistyped it, or if the printing press
had a blotch on it, the error might easily slip past proofreaders.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:B2C4e.77522$7z6.13560@lakeread04...
>
> Last night I ran my PCs through a slightly modified version of Goodman
> Games' "The Sunless Garden" (replacing the bugbears with Clan Moulder
> skaven and some of the big lunk humanoids and owlbears with rat ogres).
>
> At one point a party rogue found a trap and failed to disable it. She
> failed several times in a row and finally failed by more than 5 points,
> suffering the trap's effects.
>
> Check this out:
>
> Poison Needle Trap: CR 3; mechanical; touch trigger, one shot only; lock
> bypass (Open Lock DC 28); Atk +22 melee; Dmg poison (DC 23 Fort save or
> 2d6 permanent Con from lethal nerve agent;

Ouch! Where can my assassin get some of that?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> Werebat wrote:
> > Poison Needle Trap: CR 3; mechanical; touch trigger, one shot only;
> lock
> > bypass (Open Lock DC 28); Atk +22 melee; Dmg poison (DC 23 Fort save
> or
> > 2d6 permanent Con from lethal nerve agent; Search DC 28; Disable
> Device
> > DC 28 (break needle tip).
>
> > This still isn't too far above the party's power level (average
> party
> > level is about 8, and the rogue could have disarmed the trap on a die
>
> > roll of 12 or higher). It was the only threatening encounter in the
> > room, so it wasn't IMO so much overpowered as under-CRed.
> >
> > What do you all think?
>
I've always thought that traps mostly only make sense have a good chance of
taking their targets out of commission permanently or if they drain DEX.
Maybe it's a side effect of the hit point mechanics.
But what use is a trap that will only hurt a thief without lowering his
abilities to take your stuff away (or pick further locks / disarm further
traps).

 

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Hadsil wrote:
>
> Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> >
> > Take 20 on the Search; a Rog3 w/6 ranks Search and a
> > decent Int or masterwork tool (+2 bonus) finds the
> > trap. Wiz3 casts /knock/, bypassing the trap (or the
> > party just accepts whatever consequences there may be
> > for breaking the lock).
> >
> > No natural 20's needed. Perfectly plausible.
>
> 1) You can't assume a rogue will take 20 every time he searches for a
> trap.

Don't need to. You just have to assume he takes 20
*this* time.

> 2) You can't assume a wizard will not only have knowledge of Knock but
> has it prepared at the time it is needed.

Psst. Scribe Scroll. Or, as I said, just BREAK the
damn lock.

These are not *implausible* assumptions. Will they be
true in every case? Of course not. But you might as
well argue that kobolds aren't CR 1/4 (or whatever they
are) because 1st-level fighters will *sometimes* roll a
lot of natural 1's when attacking them.

-Bluto