What Does It Take To Turn The PC Into A Hi-Fi Audio Platform?

[Rich33]

You have not looked at the Dragonfly DAC, which is so highly rated by Stereofile and that costs $200 or less.

 

[g00ey]

Already a bit over 200 comments? Fwiw here's my take on this...

I don't think this test is really fair. While I only have experience with the Realtek chip and the Xonar Essence card I cannot speak for the other two DAC+Amp combos. But I can say this:

Firstly, when you run the Xonar STX in its basic configuration, the factory settings are quite a disappointment. It isn't until you tweak the sound with the equalizer the STX really starts to shine compared to the Realtek chip. If you try to do the same with the Realtek chip it will only take you so far and that's not very far. But with all this tweaking, the objectivity of this test disappears.

Also, an equalizer configuration that is optimal for say a grungy rock song may not be optimal for a classical sonata with a lot of natural acoustic instruments. This is also a matter of individual taste and preference of course. But I can testify that the STX gives you a lot more to play around with than the Realtek chip does.

Secondly, something that I have experienced with the STX card is that the headphone amplifier doesn't have enough strength to drive my 250 Ohms headphones in High Gain Mode (+12dB 150-300 Ohms). I had to switch to Extra High Gain Mode (+18dB 300-600 Ohms) before I got a proper sound in my headphones.

So, in order to get the most out of such a product, quite a bit of tweaking is necessary and one need to make sure that everything is properly configured. When such steps are taken it gets more difficult to get a fair comparison because now, they are not under equal conditions and their different signatures get more unique and therefore make them more distinguishable in listening tests.

 

[photonboy]

*FAIL. FAIL. FAIL.

I posted earlier, but I just went back and compared the SAME audio chip to my sound card and there's a MASSIVE difference. I turned off any post-processing features on both solutions which I normally do anyway such as the "X-Fi Crystalizer."

I also tested my FAMILY members and they could EASILY see the difference in quality with both my headphones and speakers for movies, games and music.

*Sat back and watched 5 minutes of AVATAR during a battle (Nero BluRay player software) with the sound card, then repeated with the Realtek solution second and EVERYONE said it sounded worse. I didn't ever tell them which solution I was using.

In particular, anything with a lot of BASS (explosions), however the differences were obvious much of the time not rarely. Both classical music and Heavy Metal sounded different, there was MUFFLED audio in games on the Realtek etc...

Parts used:
a) Realtek ALC889 (Asus Z77 Sabertooth)
b) M-Audio AV40 stereo speakers
c) Headphones: Sony MDR-V700
d) Sound Card: Auzentech X-Fi Forte

Software: latest for both audio solutions

I'm really baffled at their results as again, it's completely NIGHT and DAY for not just myself but my family as well.

 

[Christopher Shaffer]

I think simply saying that anything above 16/44K doesn't matter is ignoring a number of things, especially the fact that there are plenty of DVDs, Blurays and digital video formats that will include higher resolution audio, too.If you're just listening to stereo music, then I would tend to agree. If you're recording or using your PC for HD video media, I strongly disagree.One thing to note is that in recording, your sampling rate determines your recording resolution, and therefore your depth of editing. It's the classic stair-step effect you see in graphics when you don't have AA or a high-res texture. Your wave suffers from the same thing, meaning your edits take a larger chunk out of the wave, your sample records a more jagged version of the audio and your end product suffers.That said, I think the average user can get by on decent on-board sound, or with an upgraded Creative card.If you're a headphone gamer, like me, the story is different: get yourself a quality card that will do USB output *or* if you're using a 1/8in or 1/4in jack headset, grab a Focusrite or M-audio studio recording device (you can get a tiny one that only has a couple inputs as you'll just be using the monitor out) and control your audio output through this. This will give you quality preamps, better output levels and a cleaner signal than you'll get from most any standard audio solution.You don't need a FW headset monitor, but in case you plan to do a little home recording later, Focusrite, M-Audio and Presonus all make viable solutions for less than $200 that will serve your headphone and recording needs better than half of the other PC-enthusiast audio crap.They're the ones making the gear the pros use for studio use, so they know their stuff.

Nail meet hammer. These are two points that I find my self making all the time.

Higher resolution encoding allows for better editing. You can always master down but not up. Pro-Audio sound cards from all the manufacturers that you mentioned are great, no nonsense options.

I'll throw Apogee onto the pile if you are using a Mac. Also Lynx, RME, Tascam into the mix.

Thanks, and I tend to agree on Apogee, but they also make some interfaces for Windows now, too. Tascam is probably on par with M-Audio entry level gear these days, especially on price and for the average user a good choice for high compatibility.

I also forgot to mention that Sennheiser for headphones are always a solid choice and they happen to be making a gaming set now, too. One nice thing gamers will appreciate is that almost all Sennheiser products come with a 5 or 10yr no-fault warranty. They're very awesome at customer support and usually replace broken stuff no questions asked.

 

[rwpritchett]

Parts used:
a) Realtek ALC889 (Asus Z77 Sabertooth)

The Z77 Sabertooth uses the ALC892, not the ALC889, and it was mentioned in the article that it is inferior to the ALC889.

Just clearing some things up...

 

[Mark Brown]

Thanks, and I tend to agree on Apogee, but they also make some interfaces for Windows now, too. Tascam is probably on par with M-Audio entry level gear these days, especially on price and for the average user a good choice for high compatibility.

I also forgot to mention that Sennheiser for headphones are always a solid choice and they happen to be making a gaming set now, too. One nice thing gamers will appreciate is that almost all Sennheiser products come with a 5 or 10yr no-fault warranty. They're very awesome at customer support and usually replace broken stuff no questions asked.

I also like Audio Technica for headphones.

 

[Rich33]

Already a bit over 200 comments? Fwiw here's my take on this...

I don't think this test is really fair. While I only have experience with the Realtek chip and the Xonar Essence card I cannot speak for the other two DAC+Amp combos. But I can say this:

Firstly, when you run the Xonar STX in its basic configuration, the factory settings are quite a disappointment. It isn't until you tweak the sound with the equalizer the STX really starts to shine compared to the Realtek chip. If you try to do the same with the Realtek chip it will only take you so far and that's not very far. But with all this tweaking, the objectivity of this test disappears.

Also, an equalizer configuration that is optimal for say a grungy rock song may not be optimal for a classical sonata with a lot of natural acoustic instruments. This is also a matter of individual taste and preference of course. But I can testify that the STX gives you a lot more to play around with than the Realtek chip does.

Secondly, something that I have experienced with the STX card is that the headphone amplifier doesn't have enough strength to drive my 250 Ohms headphones in High Gain Mode (+12dB 150-300 Ohms). I had to switch to Extra High Gain Mode (+18dB 300-600 Ohms) before I got a proper sound in my headphones.

So, in order to get the most out of such a product, quite a bit of tweaking is necessary and one need to make sure that everything is properly configured. When such steps are taken it gets more difficult to get a fair comparison because now, they are not under equal conditions and their different signatures get more unique and therefore make them more distinguishable in listening tests.

 

[Rich33]

The absolute best solution is the Dragonfly DAC from Audioquest. Despite its very low cost, It's highly praised and rated by Stereophile and Absolute Sound. Check it out.

 

[panzerknacker]

Parts used:
a) Realtek ALC889 (Asus Z77 Sabertooth)

The Z77 Sabertooth uses the ALC892, not the ALC889, and it was mentioned in the article that it is inferior to the ALC889.

Just clearing some things up...

As I posted, I tested a P8Z77-V Pro with also the ALC892 and it sounds like crap indeed. Nice to have someone else to confirm it, thanks Photonboy.

So don't just assume your Realtek sounds good just because the one Tom's benched did. Some are good some are bad.

 

[milktea]

I ordered a Benchmark ($1800). This was ~3 years ago. Had several friends over (we are all DIY speaker designers) and none of us could pick out the EMU from the Benchmark. I had the Benchmark for 20 of the 30 day return period.

They are both good units.

Yes, they are both good units. And from the spec, the EMU 1212M seems quite competent. And I'm glad you liked it. It's great for audio mixing pros. But too bad the EMU doesn't have heahphone out.
I'm more into headphones than speakers. So if you ever get the chance, maybe just try comparing them with some good set of cans. You might be surprise what you find. 😉

 

[kittle]

After all the hoopla, there is still no substitute for listening to things with your own ears and picking what sounds best to YOU. I didnt buy my audio system to appease a reviewer who I will probably never meet. I bought it for my OWN enjoyment.

I frequently get asked advice for what audio stuff to buy, and I always give the same answer:
"Take a CD of your favorite music that you like. goto a high end audio store (best buy does not count), and ask for a demo between the $70k stuff and the $200 stuff. If you cant tell the difference, go home and dont come back. Enjoy the savings. If you can tell the difference... then come back and we'll talk."

 

[hakosuka]

so sound card for new build...yay or nay? after reading the comments im so confused...i was all set in getting the STX as well.

 

[return0]

I think most people will probably be using this in an HTPC type setting where their home theater receiver is sitting right there. Why not just connect up with TOSLINK/HDMI and trust that the DAC in the receiver will handle the job, especially if it's a receiver of reasonable quality.

 

[milktea]

The absolute best solution is the Dragonfly DAC from Audioquest. Despite its very low cost, It's highly praised and rated by Stereophile and Absolute Sound. Check it out.

Do you work for Audioquest or something? I think most ppl know that the Dragonfly is just over hyped. The only real deal is the Rakin's async usb audio class 1 protocol. The rest is just typical Burr Brown warm/smooth signature, but under-powered (from USB2) to drive any high-imp headphones.

And since you've mentioned Stereophile, please review the 1kHz sinewave graph...
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-usb-da-converter-measurements
(fig. 5 & fig. 6)
The waveform is so bad, that it has got to be a joke.
The HF intermodulation (fig. 10) is just as scary to look at.

If you want a good reference, Stereophile had also done similar measurements on the Xonar STX here...
http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements
(fig. 4 & fig. 5)

There are also reports of hissing issues on the Dragonfly, just in case you haven't heard...
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/dacs/hissing-from-audioquest-dragonfly-and-sensitive-earphones-shure-se215

Don't get me wrong, the Dragonfly sounds fine. And most probably won't hear any difference *staring at the reviewers here in this article* 😉 They have done a nice job of miniaturization. I really do hope that, one day, excellent audio could come in a tiny package. But maybe this little gadget, at this stage, isn't ready for prime-time.
Gorden Rakin had some nice tricks, but one trick just isn't going to cut it among all the other competitions out there.

 

[Someone Somewhere]

Ooh, not only are we having arguments over whether any dedicated card is better, now there's a civil war in the dedicated camp!

**grabs popcorn**

 

[ohim]

Probably grinds plenty of 'audiophiles' gears to know that the Realtek 889 sound so close to their 1k+ gear...This also kind of proves the point gamers make about not having a sound card added to their build. It may not be the very best, but it's hardly the absolute worse ever, as oft claimed by 'audiophiles'

It won`t grind, is just like in photography, a 250$ 50mm 1.4 lens can make about the same photos as a 1500$ 50mm 1.2 lens, but there are people who will spend that extra cash for that little more.

I`m using at my PC a Xonar Phoebus sound card with a Audiotechnica ATH-M50 headphones and as for speakers, Technics SB-CS95 (had them for years in my family) and a Technics SU-A700Mk3 amplifier. Each of the components on their own add little to the sound experience but when you add all of them it will change your musical experience.

 

[toyfactor]

it's really hard to do a blind test. even with the mp3 vs flac vs wav comparison the participants couldn't tell the difference. maybe instead of doing one song at a time, he should test with one cd or one day or even one week worth of listening. the ears really take time to adjust to the sound.agree also with gaymer. this article had a few people jumping up and down that in the puter world blind test the results came out as is. this would definitely spoil the experience for audiophile wannabe's / newbie's.aside from that, audio is a very subjective experience. being under pressure to tell the difference among different devices can actually diminish his ability to tell the difference

 

[Mark Brown]

I ordered a Benchmark ($1800). This was ~3 years ago. Had several friends over (we are all DIY speaker designers) and none of us could pick out the EMU from the Benchmark. I had the Benchmark for 20 of the 30 day return period.

They are both good units.

Yes, they are both good units. And from the spec, the EMU 1212M seems quite competent. And I'm glad you liked it. It's great for audio mixing pros. But too bad the EMU doesn't have heahphone out.
I'm more into headphones than speakers. So if you ever get the chance, maybe just try comparing them with some good set of cans. You might be surprise what you find. 😉

I have a set of AKG 701's and ATH M50's.

I can still get the 1616M expansion module for the 1212M. That gives me Phono Pre and Headphones.

 

[Mark Brown]

it's really hard to do a blind test. even with the mp3 vs flac vs wav comparison the participants couldn't tell the difference. maybe instead of doing one song at a time, he should test with one cd or one day or even one week worth of listening. the ears really take time to adjust to the sound.agree also with gaymer. this article had a few people jumping up and down that in the puter world blind test the results came out as is. this would definitely spoil the experience for audiophile wannabe's / newbie's.aside from that, audio is a very subjective experience. being under pressure to tell the difference among different devices can actually diminish his ability to tell the difference

Not really accurate. Depending on the scenario you have to ask what is actually being tested. The device or someone, or group of people, claims.

Claims are easily testable.

As an example at Polk Forums a few years back I challenged the cable burn in proponents to a simple, non-blind, no test administrator present, offer.

I would take either speaker or line level cable and terminate however they wanted: spades/banana/tinned etc for speaker cables or XLR/RCA/TRS for line level.

I would do a pair not burned in and a pair burned in with pink noise. Randomly label the cables. Create which is which word document and zip up encrypted with passcode. Sent out in Anti-Static bags (JPS Audio Labs sends their cables out 'pre-burned' in Anti-Static bags).

They would have 30 days. Fully sighted, self-administered, on THEIR equipment no less, testing. The passcode for the zip file would be emailed after 30 days after they posed which labeled cable was burned in and not burned in.

You can probably guess how many put their money where their mouth was ($100 for charity and bragging rights).

 

[RedJaron]

Ooh, not only are we having arguments over whether any dedicated card is better, now there's a civil war in the dedicated camp!

**grabs popcorn**

Pass me some?

 

[milktea]

I have a set of AKG 701's and ATH M50's.

I can still get the 1616M expansion module for the 1212M. That gives me Phono Pre and Headphones.

I believe you can forget about the M50s. They're more of the heavy 'colored' music hp.
However, with the AKG 701, you're now in the greens. Here's a quick review of the AKG...
http://www.headfonia.com/old-school-trio-akg-k701-beyer-dt880-sennheiser-hd650/4/

I'm not familar with the EMUs, so not much I say about your choice of the 1616M module. But based on the specs, the headphone out has a wooping 22 Ohms out. You'd going to get some heavy distortion with the AKG 701. Maybe you could ask around what is a better setup in your situation. Here's one thread in the head-if.org on the EMU 1616....
http://www.head-fi.org/t/208061/headphones-for-e-mu-1616m

 

[Mark Brown]

I have a set of AKG 701's and ATH M50's.

I can still get the 1616M expansion module for the 1212M. That gives me Phono Pre and Headphones.

I believe you can forget about the M50s. They're more of the heavy 'colored' music hp.
However, with the AKG 701, you're now in the greens. Here's a quick review of the AKG...
http://www.headfonia.com/old-school-trio-akg-k701-beyer-dt880-sennheiser-hd650/4/

I'm not familar with the EMUs, so not much I say about your choice of the 1616M module. But based on the specs, the headphone out has a wooping 22 Ohms out. You'd going to get some heavy distortion with the AKG 701. Maybe you could ask around what is a better setup in your situation. Here's one thread in the head-if.org on the EMU 1616....
http://www.head-fi.org/t/208061/headphones-for-e-mu-1616m

I'm not much for headphone listening. I had the AT's and couldn't pass up a deal on the 701's. I use them in the HT if I'm staying up late.

The AT's are good at their price point.

I'm just saying if I wanted I could get the 1616M. But I don't even need to go that route since the EMU outputs both AES/EBU and ADAT. I have a ton of ways to slice that particular loaf of bread and brings me full circle to the point that $$ isn't necessarily an indicator so much as quality as more connectivity options.

 

[calrsom]

I have had a pair of AKG K100s for 10+ years and have found them to be very comfortable, have fine sound quality, and excellent build quality after surviving years of abuse in the backpack at school. I would recommend looking at AKG's professional headphone lineup, since they all use the same self-adjusting leather headband + two "bars" (effectively a spring that pushes the cups onto your ears) design. For example the K612 and K701/702/Q701 are all in the $200 ballpark on Amazon. AKG used to manufacture the 'phones in Austria (which mine were), but apparently have moved at least some to China (according to Amazon comments) so that may affect the build quality.

 

[--davez]

Why not test/review the Brennan hard disk music system? This looks like a small, reasonable compromise system with remote, easy random access, selectable storage compression mode, ect.?--davez

 

[Filmtechie]

As someone who grew up with hi-fi from the age of 11 and spent most of my life in sound in one engineering capacity or another, the finest audio I have heard was on 12" single vinyl ...analogue...it is digital it's just 100% sampling! I agree with kitsunestarwind that the audio chain after the digital input has too be hi-fidelity..not necessarily over expensive! people growing up with MP3 files are in no position to judge quality audio....they have never heard any unless the have been to live venues with excellent sound reinforcement. Even DAT did not give what 180 vinyl could deliver with a good turntable, arm and cartridge and a quality preamp/amp and decent speakers./...that's why I still have a very large vinyl collection that is looked after properly.