[SOLVED] Which Pump/Reservoir to choose for Mini-Itx build

[Herr B]

Hello,

I am currently planning a quite insane build with RTX 2080 and Ryzen 9 in a custom loop in mini-itx form Factor.

I am basing my case on the Streacom DA2 Modular housing. So far so good, all components found their place inside the Casing. Except for the reservoir&pump.

I am looking for a small as possible & reliable as possible option.

Do you havee any recomendations there?

 

[rubix_1011]

Watercooled loops in mITX cases...my kind of challenge.

Looks like there isn't a 5.25 bay, so you can't choose something with a DDC and bay reservoir...so that is out. Next best bet would be either of the following:

DDC Pump with a very small reservoir: https://www.performance-pcs.com/wat...pwm-incl-pump-ek-xres-100-ddc-mx-3-1-pwm.html

Expandable AIO like Swiftech Drive http://www.swiftech.com/drive-x3-aio.aspx or EKWB Phoenix (mostly discontinued) https://www.ekwb.com/shop/clearance/clearance-mlc-phoenix or Alphacool Eisbaer and Eiswolf products.

 

[Herr B]

Hey Rubix,

thanks for your answer, thats so great! Unfortunately there are no 3d models of the Pump/reservoir station so i meshed it up of other Components from ek.
The combo came out too big in 3d measuring 16cm tall. So right now the model is sticking into the bottom fan but for visualizing I think Its alright.

Do you know the total height measurement of the combo? Otherwise I will just order one unit and hope for the best. Although it looks alright on the pics in the shop. - From the name I would just guess its 10cm tall in total. But if they do not attach drawings or so..

Expandable AIOs are out for me as well as CPU/Pump stations.

Edit: I found the unit has a total height of 150mm:
https://www.aquatuning.ch/wasserkue...er-blocks-ek-xres-100-revo-d5-pwm-inkl.-pumpe

That will likely be too high for mounting the reservoir updstanding. When I'm at home, I will have a look and post exact measurements for the maximum dimensions. It's roughly 150 tall.

Furthermore I found one of the materials is aluminium which is said to cause issues with the Copper used in other parts. Will that be an issue with the ek pumpstations?

If the Part is too big, would something like this be suitable?

 

[rubix_1011]

That is just a pump with a custom top. It isn't a reservoir.

 

[Herr B]

That is just a pump with a custom top. It isn't a reservoir.

Thats right. Question in this case is: Do I really need a reservoir or would it work without?

also: Can a pump/reservoir combo be places "laying down" without issue? That might solve the spacing issue.

 

[rubix_1011]

You can build a loop without a reservoir, makes it harder to fill, by a decent margin.

Also, can lay down as long as the reservoir NEVER allows the pump to intake air. If this is possible, then yes.

 

[Karadjgne]

Unless you go external. FrozenQ has a reservoir for the nCase M1, fits a 80/92mm fan slot. Kinda square, bolts to the outside of the case. Iceman has a similar design, but a slightly smaller reservoir that mounts a ddc 3.2 pump.

Could also turn that reservoir 90°, either bolt it to the uprights or the case.

Something like the Apogee drive II, with a res bolted to the uprights below the gpu would also work.

100mm tall total.

 

[Herr B]

FrozenQ has a reservoir for the nCase M1, fits a 80/92mm fan slot.

Karadjgne indeed an interesting option. If I understand that correctly, the reservoir has no pump. I would mount it in the back of the case where the Circle for a fan is and combine it with an extra pump similar to the mentioned alphacool.

I have requested some 3-D models to try and fit my case.

The Pump/reservoir combo does not suit me optically unfortunately.

 

[Karadjgne]

Yes, a reservoir is just a holding tank, many designs attach the res to the pump top for simplicity in mounting, but there's just as many that don't. Ideally, a res should be mounted high, ease of access, air travel etc, but it can be mounted anywhere.

 

[rubix_1011]

Long ago, nearly every reservoir was separate from a pump.

The idea of the reservoir connected to the pump by default is relatively new for most kits.

 

[Karadjgne]

Such a simple idea, get rid of 2 fittings and pipe, that's 4x possible leak sources reduced to 1. Wonder why it took almost 20 years....

 

[Herr B]

My Case is getting more refined now. Namely all the holes/screws from berfore disappear.

The suggested reservoir from frozenq would fit neatly. I already ordered one. I have to reverse the backplate again so that the graphics card is on the bottom and the reservoir on top.

now the next question: Cpu cooler with integrated pump or standalone pump. Are there quality combinations available or are they all crap?

 

[Karadjgne]

The only pump/block worth its salt is the Swiftec Apogee Drive II, but good luck getting one, it's been out of stock everywhere for months and no word if it's even going to be continued or if after this covid rash, ST comes out with a newer version.

AlphaCool has its Eisbaer solo/LT, basically nothing more than a low flow ddc inside a cpu block, which works decent most of the time as long as you don't have a restrictive loop and don't need much head pressure.

If you have the need/room, a decent D5 Would be good, if you don't have the room a plain 3.2 DDC can be stuck just about anywhere, a 2" cube.

If going seperate, do the homework on cpu blocks, some are considerably better than others and don't be sticker shy. There's a massive difference from the 'made in China' $16 cheapo's you find on ebay that make all sorts of wild and outlandish claims, and something like a Raystorm Pro, Heatkiller IV or Optimus block. Same goes for the gpu. Cheaper blocks use less refined acrylics, and especially the clear blocks tend to crack at the g¼ fittings.

Only a rich man can afford to buy cheap stuff, because only he can afford to keep replacing stuff over and over and over again...

 

[Herr B]

Long Time no see... We are definitely getting into a more refined stage so I can finally pull off some designs 🆒

PC-Hardware parts are ordered (and no clue when theyll arrive). The frozenq water reservoir is also there.
The case design still needs some refinement but given that the parts are not deliverable for next couple of weeks,

I still have to think of a good way for mounting the sidepanels and I want to get the GPU placement right. The parts are heck expensive so I want to get it right first time, if possible.
Here we have the reservoir modeled in 3d:
http://www.julianbechtold.de/media/computer/frozenq-reservoir.jpg
(already modded with low profile plugs)

The Linkup PCIE riser cable which Im working on currently:
http://julianbechtold.de/media/computer/riser-cable-gpu-hilder.jpg

And some views of the actual computer:
http://julianbechtold.de/media/computer/computer-front.jpg

http://julianbechtold.de/media/computer/computer-left-side.jpg

http://julianbechtold.de/media/computer/Computer-right-side.jpg

(somehow I cant add pictures?)

What's more is: will a 750 wats psu be enough to run rtx 3090 + ryzen 5950x in a watercooled loop?

Other recommendations for sfx size powersupply?

 

[rubix_1011]

You can use the image posting tool:

Or copy/paste the full URL of the hosted image between {img] as well as [/ img]

Ugh. Hang on, can't provide an actual example because it breaks.

 

[Karadjgne]

I use postimages.org, much preferable to imgur as it'll zoom on a mobile very easily and not loose resolution.

The build looks great, I went with EK's 3.2pwm DDC, I wanted the heatsink. Was originally planning on that FrozenQ reservoir, since it's one of 2 that's tailor made for my ncase, but that presented its own space challenges having the pump interior. So I went with the Iceman reservoir, pump is part of the res now.

Silverstone makes the biggest SFX that I know of, an 800w Titanium, but other than the odd 700w or so, most SFX top out at 600-650w.

As far as necessary size, that's iffy. Some say a 750w with a mainstream cpu, some have said 850w. The 3090 has a 400w power limit and the 5950x doesn't use the full 142w PPT allocation in stock, so even maxed out with OC will still come in under 200w at worst. That's a 600w total + 100w (generous) for everything else. Meaning if you run cpu stress simultaneously with gpu stress, max out fans, drives, ram usage, pump etc with full on OC, you might scrape the 700w area. A 750w still has room. The chances all that is going to happen = astronomically small % of a chance. At best you'll be topping @ 70% of that load, further adding headroom to the 750w. In an odd, but welcome, turn of events, AMD is far more efficient than Intel. Finally. Again.

The biggest benefit to the larger psus is thermally. That 800w Titanium, apart from in-godly efficiency ratings, is going to run cooler. It'll have less stress in its internals with a lower % load. The 750w in comparison could possibly see closer to 700w loads, which is getting close to the mosfets limits for thermals.

I have the Corsair 600w SFX Platinum mounted vertically and pushing a 3700x with PBO2 and an OC 2070Super, and apart from boot times have yet to see the fan spin. It's great. Heat naturally vents out the top of the case, platinum efficiency keeps things cooler inside, so it's silent. Worth every penny of its $130.

As I've said before, mITX is all about thinking 'outside the box' because there's no room inside, so there's multiple considerations apart from just size or wattage. Placement, orientation, use of fan as extra exhaust or not etc.

 

[Herr B]

Thank you all for the answers. I can host the images on my own webpage, so I had the links. the {img] tag was what I was looking for since somehow the img button would not allow me to do anything. 👍

so far unfortunately no news when my 3090 will be available. Also the ram can't be delivered since months!

At lease the Processor is there. But it came with damaged pins!

I contacted the Sales support. They offered me a replacement model, but I would have to wait from the last position in the queue again. Alternatively a 100 bucks refund.
I did not want to wait for monts again so I took the 100 refund and attempted to bend the pins straight - which worked out great luckylie.

Benchmarks suggest, there is no damage on the CPU, so far everything is running smooth and stable.
The result is good eventhough Im running through some 80° temps and only have slow ram with a total of 16 gb available.

While I'm sill waiting for the RAM and GPU, I continued designing on the case. Some details where added. Some fixes done.
specifically, I was not happy with how the Fromt reservoir looked like. The design is still not final yet.

Additionally, since my Linkup Riser cable Arrives, I designed the mount for it. I think I will soon order some first plasic-made prototypes before I reqest the parts from milled metal.
You can find my 3d model of the linktup raiser + mount on grabcad, if you are interested in building your own: https://grabcad.com/library/linkup-pcie-4-0-riser-cable-with-mount-1

Also, I added the Mainboard to grabcad, as I've seen almost no 3d models of itx boards are available online:
https://grabcad.com/library/asus-rog-strix-x570-i-mini-itx-gaming-mainbord-1

 

[Karadjgne]

This is going to be sweet when finished. You Are going to contact Lian-Li or Silverstone etc when done right? I could easily see that as a viable case design for worldwide mITX acceptance.

 

[Herr B]

I am not entirely sure on how to handle this yet. I have thought of ordering some cases first an see If they would sell and what price for.

I am a little worried about part compatibility specifically with other radiators than what I have. But I will see how it turns out when I'm finished.

The part I'm satisfied with the lease is the standoffs. Everytime, a palett with new computers arrives in our company, I am reminded with the standoffs which just look exactly the same. Have to do something about it...

 

[Karadjgne]

Ok, it's been a while, but I'm dying for some news. Is it finished? Running? Pictures? How does it perform? Updates? 🤣

 

[Herr B]

Haha 😂
I just realized yesterday that this is done like stack overflow so I thought topics get closed once the original question is received.

Ill keep you updated, i promise 😀
So last week, finally last component's (gpu, ram) arrived. Im now on the stage of fondling with the part tolerances in order to finally order the prototype of the case. Prototype/case cost is roughly at around 1500 because the cost are really high for single custom made parts as opposed to mass production. Mass production (which is not planned at this point) would probably come in at 300 per case (full stainless steel) given the price, i would like the prototype to be the final version already or possibly few parts to be changed.

Right now the components sit in my 10 year old, half broken nzxt case with air cooling. I have cranked through a small pcmark test. You can find the results here :
https://www.3dmark.com/pcm10b/1136474

Everything stock, no oc

low productivity score is probably result of low cpu fan speed but i love to have it silent 😀

not sure yet, if I should attemt oc benchmark in the final itx case, it might be in the top 100 or better for mini itx cases. Im already scratching the top 100. and that in stock!
But after all, this was not the goal for the build. I'm quite happy with the results so far.

 

[Karadjgne]

Use Typhoon burner and Dram Calculator to dial in your ram timings/subtimings (a bit of work, so save it to a user profile in bios) and that'll get more out of the processor.

Ryzens start down clocking core boost speeds at 60°C on a per core basis, not a drastic chop like Intel does when it reaches 100ish°C, but little whittles of 100MHz across several cores with every 2-4°C above 60. This helps Ryzens maintain performance without allowing voltages to drive temps up too high.

I'd also run ClockTuner2 (dram calculator and CT2 can both be found at guru3d.com) in windows. It's a performance booster by lowering voltages program written by 1usmus (Linus, Igor and some other serious Ryzen overclockers).

That'll seriously drop temps as VID is dropped an easy 0.2v, which is a Lot to a cpu. Under a production load, going from 1.4+v down to 1.2ishv dropped 20°C on my 3700x, good for a 1000 point gain in Cinebench R20. And boosts got better.

Lower temps = slower fans without performance loss.

Postings do get closed out eventually by a team of mods, generally in the 3-5year old catagory. Some of the easy question/answers and the more common duplicates might be sooner than that, but since you've already had a lead mod and the boss when it comes to liquid and cooling and one of the more knowledgeable mITX builders (rubix) involved, the post will generally be put on the 'it's already dealt with' burner. Rubix would be the one to make any final decisions, and this is most definitely an interesting and educational post. 👍.

So why stainless for a production model? It'd be far more workable with a more normal painted steel frame and aluminium fascia, like the other boutique mITX cases. Stainless is very hard to work with on a tooling basis. Easy to mold the shape, but screw holes etc are murder on drill bits and tap/die.

 

[Herr B]

Don't know if I want to fiddle around with dram timings but I might give it a try.

I'd also run ClockTuner2 (dram calculator and CT2 can both be found at guru3d.com) in windows. It's a performance booster by lowering voltages program written by 1usmus (Linus, Igor and some other serious Ryzen overclockers).

That'll seriously drop temps as VID is dropped an easy 0.2v, which is a Lot to a cpu. Under a production load, going from 1.4+v down to 1.2ishv dropped 20°C on my 3700x, good for a 1000 point gain in Cinebench R20. And boosts got better.

Lower temps = slower fans without performance loss.

That sounds quite compelling. Additionally, it should raise the longevity of the system. Is that just ment for getting a high score or also for everyday driving?

 

[Karadjgne]

Lowering voltages is an everyday thing. My Ryzen likes to run 1.475v for single core and 1.42v for multicore, so dropping VID down to 1.205v is a serious drop in not only temps but core health with high core use. Also means I go from a 41.05 multiplier across all cores to 42.8 across all cores under my specified loads. CT2 (for me) has 3 settings, idle - 18% runs stock Ryzen boosting, so simple things like websurfing etc behave just as a Ryzen should, boosting single cores to 4.4GHz. 19%-54% uses a mild setting, so I see 4.4-4.3 across any cores under use, generally around 4. Above 54%, it kicks in the more aggressive boosts and hits 42.8 solid across all cores. If I disable the P1 setting and let the cpu boost with just mild, it settles for 41.8 across all cores, which is stock settings, but at 1.2v not its auto 1.4v.

Ryzens moderate boosts according to core use, voltages and temps. But math says you need balance, so if temps go up, boosts go down etc.

Ryzens don't use a monolithic die, under the IHS is 3-6 chips, not 1. So to function, they require some sort of data path to allow communications between the various chips. This is what Infinity Fabric does. IF is based/controlled by your ram data rate. Fclock, mclock, uclock. The higher those 3, the faster the core communication, the better your performance. Left on auto works, but setting a static high value with tailored ram settings often works better.

It's like a carburetor. Perfect fuel/air ratio is 14:1. But that almost never happens. You'll generally get anywhere from 17:1 and get great gas milage and no HP, to 11:1 and be dumping gas and spinning tires. Dial in the carb for best mixture gets you the HP, but also the milage.

With ram timings, that's the amount of time it takes to open a door, enter, cross a room, open another door and exit. That's data in, through, out. The sub timings are the speed you open the door, the amount of time you wait until the door is opened, how fast you go through the door etc. Try going through the door too fast without waiting for it to open means face plant the door or stubb a toe.

So tailoring those settings and adjusting them can mean the memory controller can open, demand, get, refill data faster. Which improves performance without messing with cpu functionality. It's a freebie you setup in bios. Basically my ram came stock running 11:1 air/fuel ratio which was ok, but now I've set it for a permanent 14:1 ratio and added free HP.

Cinebench is a synthetic test. But it uses blender. A higher blender score means blender takes less time to complete the object render than a lower score. That can very much make a difference to some ppl. Rendering an hour long process in 45 minutes instead. Over the course of a day, that's more complete projects, or if folding@home etc can mean months of pc time saved.

 

[Herr B]

hmm. I,m running the diagnostics right now in CTR 2.0.

Right now its making undervolting check. Step 36 - 0.875 V. Its this normal? Sound quite off to me. additionally, temp / wattage roughly stays the same... Might be because I adjusted voltage in bios already? Will update after lunch how the diagnostics went.

Stresstest running since > 1 hour already. I guess ill open another thread for that. seems to be more reasonable to me..

[SOLVED] - Undervolting with CTR 2.0 does not seem right

hello there, I have an ryzen 5950x and wanted to try out ctr 2.0. Pretty much all I did is pressing the Diagnostic button. Its on the undervolting test now. Diagnostics running over an hour already. Its at set 58 0.845V. Temperature / wattage does not change. Test is running for over an hour...

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