News Why AMD’s Ryzen 7000 and Motherboards Cost So Damn Much

[TJ Hooker]

Unlike on AM4, this is a complete nonissue on Intel platforms. You could have purchased a launch x6xx board, never touched the BIOS, and drop a Raptor Like chip in and it will boot no problem. A BIOS update may still be a good idea if there have been any microcode tweaks to improve performance or security, but they're not a necessity to even POST as it is on AM4.

Source stating that 600 series boards don't require a BIOS update to boot with Raptor Lake?

 

[tennis2]

Well we've been asking for apples to apples comparisons for years and Tom's just keeps pumping out the same reviews with Intel chips on an open bench drawing 300W while AMD draws 200W. EVERY headline is pro-Intel, even when their benchmarks show AMD beats Intel on multi-threaded productivity software consistently at each product level.
To clarify, the ONE article I found that allowed Intel to throttle like it does in real life (see Reddit), showed Intel losing 11% to over 30% performance--meaning in real life, it LOSES at every segment.

Finding performance/watt summaries in reviews generally isn't difficult although not guaranteed the author chooses to incorporate it. Furthermore, performance doesn't decrease linearly with power limit reductions. You'd be looking for a full-on article about this one aspect (which I would like. GPUs also while they're at it).

It's not like Intel is cheating by having a higher power limit than AMD. Similarly in the past (not anymore), AMD GPUs have been less efficient than Nvidia.

The job of the reviewer is to present the full/stock performance of a product. That means eliminating factors that can be avoided, such as proper cooling. It's not Intel/AMD/Nvidia's fault if a system integrator cheaps out on cooling and the components don't/can't reach their full potential.

If Intel's not footing the bill, I'd like them to EVER respond to my claims that they are. But they NEVER disagree, even though the writer sometimes responds in the thread.

So you're not satisfied by a response from the website staff, you want Intel corporation to respond to you personally to debunk your conspiracy theories?

 

[gggplaya]

Finding performance/watt summaries in reviews generally isn't difficult although not guaranteed the author chooses to incorporate it. Furthermore, performance doesn't decrease linearly with power limit reductions. You'd be looking for a full-on article about this one aspect (which I would like. GPUs also while they're at it).

It's not like Intel is cheating by having a higher power limit than AMD. Similarly in the past (not anymore), AMD GPUs have been less efficient than Nvidia.

The job of the reviewer is to present the full/stock performance of a product. That means eliminating factors that can be avoided, such as proper cooling. It's not Intel/AMD/Nvidia's fault if a system integrator cheaps out on cooling and the components don't/can't reach their full potential.


So you're not satisfied by a response from the website staff, you want Intel corporation to respond to you personally to debunk your conspiracy theories?

Wow, you're completely forgetting AMD's hot and loud FX cpu's. This one was 220w TDP and included it's own AIO water cooler. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IO2PTK2

At least if Intel is going to be hot and loud, then they at least have the highest performance. AMD's FX series were just hot and loud and still had worse performance.

 

[tennis2]

Wow, you're completely forgetting AMD's hot and loud FX cpu's. This one was 220w TDP and included it's own AIO water cooler. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IO2PTK2

Yeah! That also!

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

What's it matter? Tray pricing or MSRP? The retail price of both 13th gen and Ryzen 7000 are ~30% higher across the board from each respective MSRP right now.

You need to think long term, and not just the immediate moment to moment pricing situation.

 

[dalauder]

Finding performance/watt summaries in reviews generally isn't difficult although not guaranteed the author chooses to incorporate it. Furthermore, performance doesn't decrease linearly with power limit reductions. You'd be looking for a full-on article about this one aspect (which I would like. GPUs also while they're at it).

It's not like Intel is cheating by having a higher power limit than AMD. Similarly in the past (not anymore), AMD GPUs have been less efficient than Nvidia.

The job of the reviewer is to present the full/stock performance of a product. That means eliminating factors that can be avoided, such as proper cooling. It's not Intel/AMD/Nvidia's fault if a system integrator cheaps out on cooling and the components don't/can't reach their full potential.


So you're not satisfied by a response from the website staff, you want Intel corporation to respond to you personally to debunk your conspiracy theories?

Do you remember when they stopped just quoting frame rates and started quoting 99th percentile because performance in real world was limited by jittering, not average? That's all I'm asking for.

Intel has a tremendous marketing team that is FAR superior to AMD's. I respect that.

But the reviewers should attempt to reflect real world performance and stock Intel doesn't ACTUALLY hit their benchmark performance, meaning that Tom's Hardware is giving up its journalistic integrity with every CPU article. They fixed that for GPUs and it resulted in killing off SLI because of terrible real-world experiences. Great journalism there! But they've lost that.

 

[dalauder]

So you're not satisfied by a response from the website staff, you want Intel corporation to respond to you personally to debunk your conspiracy theories?

No, Intel is doing a great job. Tom's Hardware should do better investigations, that's all.

 

[tennis2]

Do you remember when they stopped just quoting frame rates and started quoting 99th percentile because performance in real world was limited by jittering, not average? That's all I'm asking for.

I do actually!
https://techreport.com/review/21516...c9ya.BjrRPuU1OSAYon0-1667499778-0-gaNycGzNC30
(RIP techreport)

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But the reviewers should attempt to reflect real world performance and stock Intel doesn't ACTUALLY hit their benchmark performance, meaning that Tom's Hardware is giving up its journalistic integrity with every CPU article. They fixed that for GPUs and it resulted in killing off SLI because of terrible real-world experiences. Great journalism there! But they've lost that.

How many years ago was that, how much staff turnover has their been since that article?
Is that article writer still here at Toms Hardware?

 

[gggplaya]

I'm probably the only one not too concerned about the Motherboard price increase. AMD has promised several generations on this AM5 socket. So I'd rather spend the extra money up front on my motherboard, that way drop in upgrades are super quick and easy. Cleaning and applying new thermal paste will take up most of the time.

 

[tjvaldez01]

I'm a B550 owner and when/if I upgrade, I'm not going to buy 32gb of memory. Can Tom's show the difference in price between 16gb of ddr 4 and 5?

 

[tennis2]

I'm probably the only one not too concerned about the Motherboard price increase.

Absolutely. Look, I get that DDR5 got severely hampered by COVID supply shortages and whatnot. I'm less excited about the price premium we're paying for PCIe5.0 and getting essentially nothing from it.

 

[dalauder]

How many years ago was that, how much staff turnover has their been since that article?
Is that article writer still here at Toms Hardware?

Maybe not. But I still think the U.S. could stand to have more high quality journalistic investigation.

I'm a B550 owner and when/if I upgrade, I'm not going to buy 32gb of memory. Can Tom's show the difference in price between 16gb of ddr 4 and 5?

Well that depends on your usage. If you keep Chrome open when you game, 16GB could be limiting. 32GB will typically handle any ordinary simultaneously opened programs. As far as I know, 16GB should game the same as 32GB, so the comparison should hold up.

Out of curiosity though...are you gonna go with just one stick of DDR5 to $100 and buy another when it drops in price? Because single-channel RAM will perform worse than dual channel (assuming you buy matching sticks and use the correct two slots).

 

[dalauder]

As we all know the current weakness in the PC market led AMD to forecast a much worse-than-expected third and fourth quarter. Pat Gelsinger of Intel said: "We are certain that today’s pressure on the PC market will persist well into 2023 and the outlook is not favorable!” As to AMD and their pricing and marketing issues, it’s very clear to me and proves that they do not live in the real world. As usual the view from the 'corporate windowed corner office' is more often than not much different from the man on the street! Or boots on the ground! There was some discussion here about the power draw. The only draw these days that I can truly appreciate is the drawing of cash out of my pocket and filling up my tank only half-way between paychecks. There are no more certainties today. For me however the only certainty remains driving my trusty forklift on the third shift tonight and dreaming about overtime. This at least affording me drinking Mountain Dew again and living-off hot dogs and a free drink at Costco! Welcome to my world!

Wait. Are you saying Intel is different from AMD?

 

[dalauder]

I'm probably the only one not too concerned about the Motherboard price increase. AMD has promised several generations on this AM5 socket. So I'd rather spend the extra money up front on my motherboard, that way drop in upgrades are super quick and easy. Cleaning and applying new thermal paste will take up most of the time.

Something undervalued. Intel changes the socket every generation or two. AMD gives you 5 years and 4 generations.

 

[Mithrandir95]

"Now, it's well-known that Intel’s chips consume more power than Ryzen, [...]"

That doesn't count?

If you look at big picture cost, it would include 1) cost of power supply 2) cost of cooler 3) consideration of electricity. The higher power and cooling requirements of a 12 or 13 Gen Intel system would potentially offset much of the cost of a Zen 4 system, and the cost of electricity likely more than take care of the rest.

 

[Arbie]

Very good article, esp with the fixes. Very bad title.

We're getting a phenomenal amount of cutting edge technology for chicken feed. Yes, $300 is exactly that for a modern motherboard. You can spend that on a single piece of lawn furniture. Think for one nanosecond about the differences in what it takes to make one over the other. And that you'll be using the PC tech for hours every day for years.

I'm NOT addressing those for whom $300 is a month's wages. They aren't here reading about gaming FPS and PCie 4 vs 5.

Stop whining about trivial differences in cost for this stuff. It's ALL cheap.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Maybe not. But I still think the U.S. could stand to have more high quality journalistic investigation.

I concur, but those types of journalists don't grow on trees and Journalism seems to be a dying career choice for many.

Look at how many good (former) news writers jumped over to working for the company over the past decade.

 

[dalauder]

If you look at big picture cost, it would include 1) cost of power supply 2) cost of cooler 3) consideration of electricity. The higher power and cooling requirements of a 12 or 13 Gen Intel system would potentially offset much of the cost of a Zen 4 system, and the cost of electricity likely more than take care of the rest.

But that would give AMD a win. They don't do that here.

 

[dalauder]

I concur, but those types of journalists don't grow on trees and Journalism seems to be a dying career choice for many.

Look at how many good (former) news writers jumped over to working for the company over the past decade.

You're not wrong. People don't value accurate information enough. But it's just absurd to "investigate" and quote this many numbers without them actually meaning something.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Something undervalued. Intel changes the socket every generation or two. AMD gives you 5 years and 4 generations.

To be more precise:

Intel changes every 2x CPU Product SKU cycles.
e.g.
LGA1156 = 1st Gen (Nahalem)
LGA1155 = 2nd & 3rd Gen (Sandy Bridge & Ivy Bridge)
LGA1150 = 4th & 5th Gen (Haswell, & Haswell Refresh)
...
LGA1200 = 10th & 11th Gen (Comet Lake & Rocket Lake)
LGA1700 = 12th & 13th Gen (Alder Lake & Raptor Lake)

The last time you got Intel giving you more than 2x generations was:
LGA1151 = 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th Gen ( SkyLake, Kaby Lake, Coffee Lake, Coffee Lake Refresh).

AMD seems to be moving to 3x Zen Generations per Socket.
Socket AM4 = Zen 1, Zen 1+, Zen 2, Zen 3.
Socket AM5 = Zen 4, Zen 5, Zen 6 + (Any Minor refreshes that may occur).

MLiD has interviewed vendors who work at the MoBo companies & Intel.
The big MoBo makers LIKE when Intel sticks to 2x Generations per Socket, gives the MoBo makers something new to make.

AMD is driving Zen along it's own path, that's by design and MoBo makers are accomodating AMD's wishes.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But that would give AMD a win. They don't do that here.

That's because they hold Intel to lower standards than AMD.

The bias is real, and AMD has to jump through FAR MORE hoops to get the same level of praise.

It's just what the staff at Tom's Hardware has done over time for the past 20+ years as a organization.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You're not wrong. People don't value accurate information enough. But it's just absurd to "investigate" and quote this many numbers without them actually meaning something.

That's because the younger generations, many of them want easy < 60 second News Bites with easy to digest conclusions.

They don't want to investigate, learn, read the details.

That's too much for them. God forbid that they understand the #'s and what they mean.

 

[helper800]

Very good article, esp with the fixes. Very bad title.

We're getting a phenomenal amount of cutting edge technology for chicken feed. Yes, $300 is exactly that for a modern motherboard. You can spend that on a single piece of lawn furniture. Think for one nanosecond about the differences in what it takes to make one over the other. And that you'll be using the PC tech for hours every day for years.

The problem with your analogy is I can sit in a 300 dollar lawn chair for the rest of my life, but I can only use my CPU/Hardware for as long as it is useful and that varies from person to person, however, 10+ years is usually longer than hardware remains useful.