[SOLVED] Why most developers don't care about cheating problem in shooters?

[XCUT]

Companies usually use Fair Fight as the only "anti cheat system" which does almost nothing but analyzes statistics. Ubisoft seems to update their Battle eye only when people are furious on forums. Why they don't give a **** about this problem? CODs, Battlefields also have some amount of cheaters.

 

[Frag Maniac]

Where did you get this "Companies usually use Fair Fight" claim? Have a look at their website and you'll see that EA and Ubi are pretty much the only two huge ones listed (Daybreak and Realtime being the only others listed with just 1 game each), There's just a handful of mostly older games listed on the whole site. https://gameblocks.com/

Ubi has since gone to using EasyAntiCheat in Ghost Recon Wildlands and beyond. EA is the bigger offender having still used Fair Fight on Battlefield V. So of course Battlefield is riddled with cheaters, but you have to be talking about older Ubi titles to say it's as bad in their games.

There's no perfect anticheat system, but Fair Fight IS woefully inadequate and subpar to most. I just don't think your assessment that "companies usually use Fair Fight" is anywhere near accurate.

 

[XCUT]

But still, apart from Fair Fight, companies don't care much about the problem. Punkbuster when up to date was good imo. But it's no longer in use.

 

[WildCard999]

Not a fan of EasyAntiCheat, it blocked me trying to play the Division 2 when I had ASUS Aura installed.

Also I've met more then my fair share of people who complain about cheating when there just not good. I've been accused more then a few times when I was super competitive in BF4 and every once in awhile would have a good night getting like a 7/1 K/D. Showing my previous "normal" K/D helped but I got temp banned from a few servers which was very annoying. I've never cheated in a multiplayer game.

 

[XCUT]

Not a fan of EasyAntiCheat, it blocked me trying to play the Division 2 when I had ASUS Aura installed.

Also I've met more then my fair share of people who complain about cheating when there just not good. I've been accused more then a few times when I was super competitive in BF4 and every once in awhile would have a good night getting like a 7/1 K/D. Showing my previous "normal" K/D helped but I got temp banned from a few servers which was very annoying. I've never cheated in a multiplayer game.

This is the problem. If anti cheat is questionable you can't tell if someone is very good or a cheater. But you can clearly call someone a cheater when he is invisible for everyone or kills everyone from his spawn.

 

[Frag Maniac]

Like I said, there's no perfect anti cheat system, and even the best of them will be tripped up by some 3rd party software. I can see some people being upset by this, but if it's merely software to run your RGB, just turn it off while gaming online in an EAC title. If it continues to be a problem merely by being installed, that's as much if not more a problem caused by ASUS than Epic.

In fact look at pretty much ANY RGB software, especially ones that are brand specific and control a wide range of components, and the common denominator is incompatibility issues, Corsair's iCUE for example. These are the kind of things the buyer should research before falling in love with RGB.

Hell, Punkbuster only used a simple system of known cheat signatures vs heuristics. The result was hackers could easily attack it with a barrage of false positives, which caused tons of unwarranted bans. This is a big part of the reason why Punkbuster is no longer in use. It would fare even worse with today's cheaters.

Today's cheaters are often actually congregating on sites that allow chat on how to exploit anticheat systems, so making security for online games anymore is a constant grind.

Even the most advanced Denuvo versions are being cracked and at best they can usually only guarantee 1 month security.

 

[WildCard999]

This is the problem. If anti cheat is questionable you can't tell if someone is very good or a cheater. But you can clearly call someone a cheater when he is invisible for everyone or kills everyone from his spawn.

True but then the only way to really catch them would be to continuously record them doing so or have this happen while a dev is playing.

It's been awhile since I've played a FPS but is this really that rampant nowadays? BF4 used Punkbuster which worked well but yea it's no longer utilized.

The only game that was really annoying with cheaters/hackers was GTA V, every time I spawned in someone would drop a tank on me... I've heard Rockstar has been working on getting rid of them although they should just allow private servers.

 

[Phaaze88]

I don't know about them not caring, but I believe the consequences for cheating are simply not strict enough. A temporary or perma-ban just isn't enough for some of these jerks.

Back when I still played Wow, botting was rampant. Even though Blizz was catching and banning these folks - there's only so many they can deal with at a time - once the ban lifted, they'd just come back and do again.
You know, "stop a few, and several take their place" sort of thing.
It wasn't until they tracked down the writers of these programs and threatened to sue their asses that the BS eventually got under control.
Their numbers can be reduced, but you'll never be rid of them all.

 

[Frag Maniac]

I think you guys need to put yourselves in the shoes of the anticheat devs for a change. Is it really fair to imply an anticheat system is holistically "questionable" just because it yields a false positive with RGB software, which is lately one of the most notorious 3rd party tools for causing conflicts?

When problems like this persist it's usually because the owner of that software (ASUS, Corsair, etc) are unwilling to do what it takes to make it compatible with competing brands, or even other 3rd party software that is zero competition to them. Everyone's paranoid about IP security these days, and discussing such fixes usually involves discussing the code design they're built on.

If anything is representative of problems when it comes to gaming is the way a lot of online gamers recklessly play, buy, and use their game systems. Too many of them are pointing the finger instead of looking at themselves as part of the problem. A lot of smaller problems still add up to one huge problem.

 

[XCUT]

Consequences should be much more strict. Whole account banned at least. Ubisoft for example once unbanned all cheaters in Rainbow six siege.

 

[WildCard999]

I could care less about the RGB issue, literally just changed the color, uninstalled the software then moved on. It was only a minor annoyance.

Those who do cheat and get caught multiple times though do need some sort of perma ban either on the account or game.

I don't see too many bots in MMO's, at least the ones I play as I'm pretty sure they stay on there own desolate part of the map and just farm money/items although every rare once in awhile you'll find one on a team but there pretty distinctive in the way they act and can be quickly booted from the team.

 

[Frag Maniac]

Consequences should be much more strict. Whole account banned at least. Ubisoft for example once unbanned all cheaters in Rainbow six siege.

Yet you praise Punkbuster, which granted, was good at first. Hell, I stopped gaming online way back when MoHAA: Spearhead launched with no anticheat and became riddled with cheaters. Punkbuster offered to support it, but EA refused. I'd have loved to have PB back then, but they never went beyond a simple known cheats database. Such design is easily exploited by today's hackers, whom flood game servers with false positives, resulting in tons of unwarranted bans.

So put yourself in the shoes of the many whom got banned without reason and ask yourself, would you rather be able to play with cheaters thrown into the mix, or not even have an account to play on?

Again, I don't think you get how complex an issue this is. It's not as black and white as you make it sound. There's no simple solution. Many talk private servers, but there are problems there too. The pubs/devs have no control over private servers, and can be unfairly blamed, even sued, over what happens on them because it's their game being played on them. Plus at best they would only serve a very small percentage of players.

 

[XCUT]

Yet you praise Punkbuster, which granted, was good at first. Hell, I stopped gaming online way back when MoHAA: Spearhead launched with no anticheat and became riddled with cheaters. Punkbuster offered to support it, but EA refused. I'd have loved to have PB back then, but they never went beyond a simple known cheats database. Such design is easily exploited by today's hackers, whom flood game servers with false positives, resulting in tons of unwarranted bans.

So put yourself in the shoes of the many whom got banned without reason and ask yourself, would you rather be able to play with cheaters thrown into the mix, or not even have an account to play on?

Again, I don't think you get how complex an issue this is. It's not as black and white as you make it sound. There's no simple solution. Many talk private servers, but there are problems there too. The pubs/devs have no control over private servers, and can be unfairly blamed, even sued, over what happens on them because it's their game being played on them. Plus at best they would only serve a very small percentage of players.

I have never been banned and yet I play a lot. Bans without reasons are very rare. Mostly because someone uses suspicious program for whatever reason.

 

[Frag Maniac]

I have never been banned and yet I play a lot. Bans without reasons are very rare. Mostly because someone uses suspicious program for whatever reason.

Bans due to false positives with Punkbuster happened often enough for it to be a problem. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't to lots of others. It's like defect rates with components. A margin of 2% or so is the norm and acceptable, but when it reaches 5% or more it's not. That 5% of unfairly banned people can make quite a stink about it.

You started this thread with false claims like "companies usually use Fair Fight". Now you're still doing it by insisting false bans have always been rare, merely based on just your experiences. Your choice not to sympathize with those whom were, but you no doubt would be quite upset if it happened to you.

The simple way of saying it is if Punkbuster's detection methods were useful today, it would still be in use.

 

[XCUT]

Bans due to false positives with Punkbuster happened often enough for it to be a problem. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't to lots of others. It's like defect rates with components. A margin of 2% or so is the norm and acceptable, but when it reaches 5% or more it's not. That 5% of unfairly banned people can make quite a stink about it.

You started this thread with false claims like "companies usually use fair Fight". Now you're still doing it insisting false bans have always been rare.

I am talking about the problem in general. The examples I provided were just… examples.
The best anti-cheat systems are those which scan programs while playing the game. It needs quite an effort to make it perfect but companies usually throw something just to be there.
Your attitude towards the issue seems to be like "cheating is a normal problem you can't do much as a developer".

 

[Frag Maniac]

I am talking about the problem in general. The examples I provided were just… examples.
The best anti-cheat systems are those which scan programs while playing the game. It needs quite an effort to make it perfect but companies usually throw something just to be there.
Your attitude towards the issue seems to be like "cheating is a normal problem you can't do much as a developer".

It's rather odd you accuse ME of being the one tossing out vague generalizations when you were the one making naive, inaccurate blanket statements like "companies usually use Fair Fight" and "Bans without reasons are very rare ". The way they are kept low compared to the last Punkbuster days is using more advanced methods like Heuristics, vs mere known cheat databases.

You also misquoted what I said and took it way out of context. All I said is there's no simple solution, and certainly no perfect one. It takes a lot of ongoing work and money spent to keep up on it. Maybe learn about the complexities of it instead of talking in vague, naive, generalities, and actually understanding that it's about what's fair for everyone, not just the majority.

You sound uneducated on the topic, and totally selfish, and the ironic thing is, you are the one complaining most about how it's being handled. So if anyone's implying it's a problem that can't or isn't being solved it's you. And it's not going to be by going back to old, outdated methods. Good luck if you ever get your account hacked and/or a false ban, because no one sympathizes with the guy that has no sympathy for others.

 

[XCUT]

It's rather odd you accuse ME of being the one tossing out vague generalizations when you were the one making naive, inaccurate blanket statements like "companies usually use Fair Fight" and "Bans without reasons are very rare ". The way they are kept low compared to the last Punkbuster days is using more advanced methods like Heuristics, vs mere known cheat databases.

You also misquoted what I said and took it way out of context. All I said is there's no simple solution, and certainly no perfect one. It takes a lot of ongoing work and money spent to keep up on it. Maybe learn about the complexities of it instead of talking in vague, naive, generalities, and actually understanding that it's about what's fair for everyone, not just the majority.

You sound uneducated on the topic, and totally selfish, and the ironic thing is, you are the one complaining most about how it's being handled. So if anyone's implying it's a problem that can't or isn't being solved it's you. And it's not going to be by going back to old, outdated methods. Good luck if you ever get your account hacked and/or a false ban, because no one sympathizes with the guy that has no sympathy for others.

I guess players should accept their fate in shooters. Seriously since I don't work in gaming industry I can't tell anyone what to do in a given company. What do you suggest then? What should player's community do?
Insisting on developers seem to be the best way.
I asked a question, threw some instances and I received from you feedback that I am unfamiliar with the topic and a selfish person.
What's the point of it?

 

[Frag Maniac]

I guess players should accept their fate in shooters. Seriously since I don't work in gaming industry I can't tell anyone what to do in a given company. What do you suggest then? What should player's community do?
Insisting on developers seem to be the best way.
I asked a question, threw some instances and I received from you feedback that I am unfamiliar with the topic and a selfish person.
What's the point of it?

A good start would be waiting to calm down before discussing it or reporting it. The stuff gets pretty technical as far as designing and implementing security tools, and monitoring server activity. The chat or complaints that are filled with exaggerations and inaccurate generalities aren't going to be taken as seriously.

About all you can do is try to play with known fair players and friends, take note of when and where suspect activity happens, and report it as soon as possible to retain all that. Otherwise you're going to want to jot/type the details for when you can report it.

When it comes to security methods used though, that's usually decided by the higher ups that own the dev team (pubs or even huge marketing corps like ZeniMax). They're likely going to spend the money how they see fit on what security they want to use.

There has to be a huge collective of players complaining about the same type of exploits to change that, which is what happened with Punkbuster. The phrase "It takes a village" comes to mind. Part of what hurt PB though is they were either unwilling or incapable of implementing more advanced methods. Otherwise I'm sure it had been different.

One of the most ever changing and technological industries anymore is cyber security, of any kind. You really have to invest wisely in it and know what you're doing, because hackers adapt better than most. One possibility I can think of is eventually going to thumbprint logins vs passwords. Password accounts are easily hacked and also conceal identity to the point of hiding hackers as well.

Lots of people are using thumbprints instead of passwords anymore, even for high end business transactions. It's a secure way of knowing exactly who's doing what from clear across the globe. Hackers would be less likely to try to exploit a service that requires a thumbprint login, because that thumbprint reveals your identity, and it's also far harder to access a thumbprint for nefarious reasons than a password. We're talking years before something like that will be plausible though.

 

[XCUT]

A good start would be waiting to calm down before discussing it or reporting it. The stuff gets pretty technical as far as designing and implementing security tools, and monitoring server activity. The chat or complaints that are filled with exaggerations and inaccurate generalities aren't going to be taken as seriously.

About all you can do is try to play with known fair players and friends, take note of when and where suspect activity happens, and report it as soon as possible to retain all that. Otherwise you're going to want to jot/type the details for when you can report it.

When it comes to security methods used though, that's usually decided by the higher ups that own the dev team (pubs or even huge marketing corps like ZeniMax). They're likely going to spend the money how they see fit on what security they want to use.

There has to be a huge collective of players complaining about the same type of exploits to change that, which is what happened with Punkbuster. The phrase "It takes a village" comes to mind. Part of what hurt PB though is they were either unwilling or incapable of implementing more advanced methods. Otherwise I'm sure it had been different.

One of the most ever changing and technological industries anymore is cyber security, of any kind. You really have to invest wisely in it and know what you're doing, because hackers adapt better than most. One possibility I can think of is eventually going to thumbprint logins vs passwords. Password accounts are easily hacked and also conceal identity to the point of hiding hackers as well.

Lots of people are using thumbprints instead of passwords anymore, even for high end business transactions. It's a secure way of knowing exactly who's doing what from clear across the globe. Hackers would be less likely to try to exploit a service that requires a thumbprint login, because that thumbprint reveals your identity, and it's also far harder to access a thumbprint for nefarious reasons than a password. We're talking years before something like that will be plausible though.

Thumbprints is a good idea. However trying to play with fair players and friends in competitive games is impossible (as an enemy team). Reporting players is an obvious action.
If you have enough patience to wait several year for something to improve in one game (look Rainbow six siege), we can admire your toleration. I prefered to give up most competitive shooters since waiting ages is not really interesting.
I shouldn't have started this thread anyway. It leads to nowhere.

 

[Frag Maniac]

Don't assume this kind of talk leads to nowhere, it just takes a collective voice like I said. So if you're playing with friends on a given server and you all witness the same activity (best to record it if you can), then get together and discuss submitting separate complaints about the same incident. Separate is better than a joint complaint because it's like a cop getting the same story from separate interviews, so less likely to be rehearsed/made up.

Keep in mind they want people being happy to play their games, so the more people they see complaining, the more they worry players are walking away, and the more they are likely to check how many are still playing. If the server activity drops even 5%, it's enough for them to be concerned.

Other than that, you totally misread me if you think I'm content to wait for years for better security to play online. I happen to be 61 now, and my patience wore out way back when EA refused to even bother putting an anti cheat system into their cheat riddled MoHAA: Spearhead, which was a pretty good mp game until cheaters ruined it.

I also grew tired of the worsening childish text taunting of many players, which was not enforced either. MP play is way different than what it used to be, and it reminds me how a lot of cities are being policed, ignoring misdemeanor crimes.