Why Should We Bother With 3D Now?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Morgan3rd

Distinguished
Dec 16, 2009
53
0
18,630
I wear glasses. Therefore, any 3d glasses become quite uncomfortable on top of my glasses.

Also, there is a lot more stuttering with 3d if objects are too far out of the screen.

Maybe when movies go to 48 or 60 fps, and/or I wear contacts, I find 3d a silly and slightly annoying hyped technology.
 

falchard

Distinguished
Jun 13, 2008
2,360
0
19,790
As a developer I would rather put more resources into multi-monitor setups then 3D. The problem I have with 3D is it degrades the quality to add some depth. On the other hand, multi-monitor support is only just starting, and no one has really started to take advantage of it or make it a cornerstone in their games. Such as why must we only use 1 camera? Its nearly the same amount of processing to divide the render into 3 cameras then have them angle differently depending on user settings so you can curve the viewing display and widen peripheral vision.
 

IFLATLINEI

Distinguished
Jan 24, 2010
123
0
18,680
Some good points but one that most are forgetting. It wasnt that long ago we all upgraded to HD from our old tube style Tv's. Not only is 3D a joke its too soon to be replacing any of my HD gear.
 

gm0n3y

Distinguished
Mar 13, 2006
3,441
0
20,780
[citation][nom]IFLATLINEI[/nom]Some good points but one that most are forgetting. It wasnt that long ago we all upgraded to HD from our old tube style Tv's. Not only is 3D a joke its too soon to be replacing any of my HD gear.[/citation]
I have a 46" Toshiba DLP projection TV. Its about 5 years old and its definitely time for an upgrade for me. If your TV is only a couple of years old then yes, you should probably wait. But its always a good time for some people to upgrade. That said, I'm looking at getting a 55" 2D LCD (around $1400), not a 3D model (40", around $2400). Or I may wait 6 months or so and see how everything progresses.
 

jecastej

Distinguished
Apr 6, 2006
365
0
18,780
I hate the glasses, the edges in the middle too and the hi cost, so how could I overcome all this for the nice pop out effect. I would invest first in a larger screen or projector, graphic card, and sound system. And once I have those I will start again upgrading. So if all this 3D tech is only going to cost me about a $100 I will think about it. Wake me up when we get there :)
 
G

Guest

Guest
I used to play "Duke Nukem" in 3D with shutter glasses and 360 surround viewing on the Stratosphere observation deck in Las Vegas in the late 90's. It was gimmicky then and even more so now; nothing you'd need at home.
 

r0x0r

Distinguished
May 9, 2006
1,005
0
19,280
What consumers want: To be on the inside looking out. For example: in Avatar, to be in the middle of the forest during the battles and have the soldiers and Na'vi fighting all around you. Have it so as though you're a spectator in the thick of the action. Or turning your head left (IRL) in a racing game and seeing the competitor/s and the track surroundings.

What consumers get: A little bit of image depth.

Inside looking out. That's when 3D will be taken seriously be everyone.
 

ready4dis

Distinguished
Aug 7, 2009
32
0
18,530
Refer to your article that talked about polarized lenses. They don't have the same issues as the active lenses you are used to. iZ3D (I am not affiliated with them in any way shape or form) offer circular polarized screens and lenses. They are better than the horizontal/vertical polarized lenses because you can turn your head without it 'ghosting'. I just don't like nvidia pusing a technology that is not even close to the best for consumers. It's more expensive, leads to headaches, and and lots of other drawbacks. They are pushing the wrong tech, and I only hope that another company (ati?) starts supporting a better way to do things (one where glasses can be had for $1 a piece instead of $150 each!).
 
Ok I know there lots of anti-Nvidia peeps on here, but please stand back and look at the bigger picture. As I've posted several times true-3D is the next step in gaming / virtual environments. No matter how bad a$$ your X-fire setup is, your still limited to viewing it through a 2D window. Current setups only attempt to render a 3D environment onto a 2D canvas. Your used to it so you expect it and believe its better. But its missing depth, no matter how ~good~ the textures, animation, lighting, shadows, and designers are, their still limited by the 2D canvas that everything gets stuck on.

Your brain was designed to see using depth, aka your depth perception. Nothing will seem real unless it has depth to it, and it is impossible to create depth on a 2D surface. The most that can be done is to create a picture of something with depth, but not create the depth itself. So we ~need~ true-3D technology to proceed, it needs to be developed. Current technology doesn't allow us to beam two separate pictures into your brain. The best we can do is to create two separate images, separate them for their respective eyes, and hope your brain puts them back together properly. This poses a few problems, most are with the end user not the program itself.

First I will describe the programs single greatest flaw. Almost no game engine design implements negative Z-buffering. The Z-buffer holds the Z-axis value of all vertices in the virtual world. A 0 Z value indicated the vertice is at absolute screen level, higher values are objects farther away. Render engines will not bother rendering Z-values that are higher then a lower Z-value object, basically they don't render objects that are behind other objects because you wouldn't see them anyway. For this same reason they don't render objects with negative Z values because it would normally be behind the "camera / screen" and not normally visible. But with a true-3D setup, the viewer ~is~ behind the camera not at the camera. The space between the camera (screen) and the viewer is represented as negative Z space that can be rendered to. This is how you make something "pop out" of a screen, by giving it a negative Z value. So if the program isn't bothering to draw negative Z-objects, then the user will never really experience the full 3D effect. Instead objects appear to "pop into" the screen, the screen becomes a window into a 3D world with depth going out, but nothing seems to be coming into the users immediate visual space. This is where application programmers need to get busy and I fully expect this to happen in the next couple of years as nVidia push's their 3D tech more.

The next problem is actually user side. Everyone has a different spacing between their two eyeballs, and thus different alignment. Your brain attunes itself to the alignment between your eyeballs when your an infant. This is how you walk and catch things thrown at you without having to think about it (your brain does it all at a deeper subconscious level). And since its not normal for someone's eyeball distance to change during their life your brain never expects to alter its depth. Now here comes 3D gaming where each eyeball is receiving a different picture. The brain does its thing and puts those picture together to form depth. Except one little problem, the eyeball distance / alignment is different then what you've used your entire life. So your brain must relearn / attune itself for the new distance / depth field. This cause's headaches for awhile until your brain gets itself in order. Its the equivalent of connecting somebody else's eyeballs into your brain from their body instead of your own. And frequently changing your view point (going from 2D to 3D and back again) cause's your brain to have to constantly shift and reconfigure itself, its not kind to someone not used to it. Only way to solve this would be to find a way to create a "visual profile" of each individual gamer, then have the program (possibly the driver) load that profile and use it to align the virtual eyeballs. This won't be possible until games are programmed with true-3D in mind from the beginning and not as an afterthought.

In short, true-3D is the next generation. Its not a gimmick, its not a fad. We tried it years ago and there simply wasn't the technology around to properly render things. It was like trying to do wireless internet with AM/FM radio's. Possibly, but not enjoyable. This article sounds like it was written by someone who went in with a very negative look on 3D to start with. Its jaded and biased, hence the terms "slightly pop out" and all the negativity.

Myself being someone who's been into true-3D since the days of the GF4 Ti4200 with a very nice 17ince NEC CRT doing 800x600 x 2 with hardwired shutter glass's. I can attest that the effect is amazing once its setup properly. Playing AvP2 with a 5.1 surround sound EAX setup, stereoscopic true-3D with shutter glass's, and the lights turned off was a total trip. The experience of running around the world being chased by aliens with a true 3D environment was amazing, it wasn't just a video game because my brain was pretty convinced it was real. It wasn't experiencing something through a flat screen. But this was back in 2002. Modern setups should allow for much better resolutions and effects. The draw back is that it takes awhile to setup up and get your brain used to it, its not something you can "just try out" and write a review on. I wouldn't listen to anyone who hasn't done this for at least several weeks on a daily basis, your human brain just doesn't work that way.
 
G

Guest

Guest
not unless they implement 3D without the glasses, i'm not buying it ... 3D with glasses means sure headache and disorientation after a couple of hours of viewing ... what more if you have it for 8 hours at home
 

pocketdrummer

Distinguished
Dec 1, 2007
1,090
37
19,310
[citation][nom]RADIO_ACTIVE[/nom]Nothing like having the edges of your monitors in the middle of your screen. I could be wrong, I havent tried it but...I think they need to just stick to making larger curved monitors instead of hooking up six of them.[/citation]

Agreed. If they ever intent a curved LCD monitor (or oled) that's fast (2ms) and has at LEAST the accuracy of current TN panels, I would jump in head first.
 

safcmanfr

Distinguished
Aug 4, 2008
117
0
18,680
[citation][nom]hokkdawg[/nom]Completely agree - 3D is overrated; it's a good idea on paper, but the practical technology just isn't there yet. Anyone here see Avatar in 3D? I thoroughly enjoyed watching a high res, bright & saturated image on my home TV vs. the 3D version at the theater.[/citation]


I actually enjoyed the 3D version at cinemas. I think the fact it was filmed in 3D made a big difference.

I also watched Alice in Wonderland in 3D, and was less impressed - but that was a post-prod conversion.

Plus I have watched a few blu-rays on my friends full-LED LCD screen and now all films look dull and less colourful compared to the ones I saw on the LED screen.

3D tech on a LED screen would probably return the same brightness and colours as a normal LCD HD TV IMO.
 

djab

Distinguished
Feb 18, 2009
121
0
18,680
@ palladin9479: Thanks. That was a really good comment about stereo 3D :)
A bit long (for some people) but interesting. Too bad, lot of anti-3d people will not read that.



@ demonhorde, I think that is the kind of thing that vertigo_2000 tried to explain in his/her comment. Or like the fact that in games not designed for Stereo3D, there usually are some depth problems with 2D parts like menus, cursor or fake3D/2Dtricks that you do not notice until you switch to S3D.


With both Nvidia and IZ3D drivers, you actually have the possibility to adjust things like depth, convergence, cycle frustum, ... that works well.
This may be what you are talking about palladin9479. But I do not remember if you can save some profiles for each games/apps. That would be nice.


Exactly, well said palladin9479, like colour TV was the next gen of black and white TV. And TV tech is old too but yes people are still buying new better TV.
But it seams that some people still do not understand that ... even on tech related websites ...


 

djab

Distinguished
Feb 18, 2009
121
0
18,680
3D has been the rage since the 1950's. I guess it's the most tireless dead horse ever....It always require huge costs and fades away only to resurface later on and repeat the cycle
3D= Money wasted.

Actually it seems that stereo 3D picture and technology have been "invented" in the 1840s and it even seems that some painters experimented that around 1600.
So, yes it is old tech.
And what?
The wheel was invented thousands of years ago, that is even older tech but people are still trying to improve it every day.
Have you seen a lot of cars with stone wheels in the street?
Why are so many people against progress?
 

daniel joy

Distinguished
Mar 30, 2010
9
0
18,510
ok this guy saw 3d surround- of course the 3d looks like a gimmick- how could it not with bezels interrupting the 3d experience. shoot- even eyefinity looks like a gimmick in 2d! the real application for this tech will be triple projectors with no bezels. that will be a full immersion experience.

i actually have 3d- unlike most of the people who think 3d is a gimmick- and ill never go back to 2d gaming- 2d gaming is a gimmick. it just looks lame. i would prefer a super large projector screen in 3d over a gimmick 2d multiple monitor setup with bezels breaking up my screen.

Nvidia's driver automatically enhance the color- so the screen does not look dark. this is a myth. and glasses will be getting better in a while. you people have no idea what you are talking about.

Very few of the current games designed for 3d use much pop out- its a effect that should not be over done. but the depth adds so much realism to any game- it literally feels like you are in the game. sure the tech is not perfect- and will surly improve- but its a huge step above 2d gaming.

Nvidia is way ahead in the 3d department- i hope ati catches up someday- it would be nice to have more options- iz3d drivers currently lack key features that most computer enthusiast will miss (no dx 10-11, no sli, no shuttergalss/dlp support)

the bottom line: dont buy a triple monitor set up- buy a triple projector or just go with one huge projector on a 120" screen.
 
@djab

Well the current drivers let you set global settings, but because each game is typically designed differently, you would need to calibrate the settings for each game. There really needs to be a better tool to do this for you. Like something that creates a pop-out rotating cube, and you adjust the sliders as its spinning until its comfortable to look at. Then set height / alignment and possible have games use a single standard.

Also there is a difference between shutter and polarized methods. If you get a choice go with shutter when possible. Polarization results in you loosing out on actual visible resolution due to physics.
 
G

Guest

Guest
I have a 3d vision setup with a 480 gtx running on the alienware 23"

The games that look the sickest on them are torchlight and mad balls of all things rofl.

FPS the refresh rate is still to slow for multiplayer, but single player it adds enough to be more than a gimmick.

I think when the monitors are doing 240hurtz and you are getting 120hurtz and eye it will be awesome.

P.s I played madballs on the weekend at a mini lan with some friends (4 people) for about 5 hours in a row all in 3d with max depths set and I don't get soar eyes. You guys need to harden up.

P.s. S3D porn, enough said.
 
How is 60 fps not fast enough for multi-player? That is one frame per 16 ms. At that rate your internet connection is more responsible then your display FPS. Assuming a super fast connection in the same general region as the server, we're talking 30~60 ms ping time at absolute best? Then there is the time it takes the packet to go through your network stack, through the driver, through the OS into the game then be processed by the game, then rendered to the screen. Your screen should have updated several times during that entire process. And after your screen updates, your brain see's the picture, starts to process the image while automatically adjusting for its 2D appearance (your brain thinks in 3D btw). After that your brain makes a decision on appropriate action then sends those commands to you fingers that then kit the keystrokes that are then processed by the game. Game executes code based on user input to create the network packet that goes back through that entire process to get to the server, where its again processed.

Sorry ... screen refresh rate past 60 is the absolute lowest thing possible to worry about. 60 fps update is more then plenty to do multi-player on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.