Yet another little bug/unintended feature

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
magic lamp.

The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically, I
was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.

So, is this a known 'bug'?

-K
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I'm confused. Doesn't the Eyes of the Overworld allow you to see
through walls no matter what kind of place you are in?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

themoo...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm confused. Doesn't the Eyes of the Overworld allow you to see
> through walls no matter what kind of place you are in?

Ya, but the vicinity of the lamp was 'lit'. If the lamp got turned off
(by getting swallowed by things), the 'lit' area goes away even when I
was seeing through the walls. When I reapply the lamp, the 'lit' area
comes back, and the light was going through the walls.

-K
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kremti wrote:
> So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
> magic lamp.
>
> The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically, I
> was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.
>
> So, is this a known 'bug'?
>
> -K

Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
questionable stratergy, but to do so whilst you have the Eyes of
overworld is very silly.
The eyes confer astral vision, which, in effect, is like having a magic
lamp with e-ray vision. If you take the eyes off, the light from the
lamp should no longer go through walls.

Mark
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Marky Mark wrote:
<snip>
> Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
> questionable stratergy, but to do so whilst you have the Eyes of
> overworld is very silly.
> The eyes confer astral vision, which, in effect, is like having a
magic
> lamp with e-ray vision. If you take the eyes off, the light from the
> lamp should no longer go through walls.

Which is not the point. The whole point of this thread is if this
behaviour is bug/unintended.

I had magic lamps coming out of my ears after experimenting with
puddin' farmin'.

Plus, I didn't experiment, but lighting and some spells that requires
'line of sight' probably interacts differently than astral vision (i.e.
fireballs, cone of ice, jump, etcs). If so, it's pretty reasonable for
wizards to carry some light source even with the astral vision. I'm
not claiming that one *should* be using the magic lamps for lighting in
that case, but hell, I had 3 magic lamps just lying around. Why not 😀

-K
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:

> Quoting Marky Mark <mdmota@yahoo.com.au>:
>> Kremti wrote:
>>> So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
>>> magic lamp.
>>> The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically, I
>>> was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.
>> Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
>> questionable stratergy
>
> It seems very common amongst those who ascend a lot.
>
>> but to do so whilst you have the Eyes of overworld is very silly.
>
> One might not always want to be wearing the Eyes.
>
> Regardless, many reported and fixed bugs involve things that don't
> ordinarily crop up. I would recommend that the OP reports this one, since
> I can't see it in the known bugs list, but C343-93 suggests astral vision
> is still a bit dodgy.

Well, how does astral vision work, anyhow? Perhaps all creatures (and
objects?) have a component in the astral plane which this vision allows you
to see, and perhaps light itself has such a component. Thus, maybe the
astral component from your lamp *can* pass through walls, and since you
have the eyes, you can see this. In this case, other non-astrally-visioned
creatures could not see the light on the other side of the wall, but you
could.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andy Johnson wrote:

> David Damerell wrote:
>> Quoting Marky Mark <mdmota@yahoo.com.au>:
>>
>>> Kremti wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
>>>> magic lamp.
>>>> The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically, I
>>>> was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.
>>>
>>> Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
>>> questionable stratergy
>> It seems very common amongst those who ascend a lot.
>>
> I would argue that those who ascend a lot are so good that they ascend
> /despite/ not trying for the extra wish.

I don't agree; once I get the castle wand I sometimes have enough wishes
that the last couple I use are for things I consider even less useful than
a magic lamp. I don't think the lamp affects my survival after the castle
(the only times I've died after this point were once when I stupidly choked
on a corpse I didn't even need for anything, and once when I escaped the
dungeon by accident), but I think it has a high "convenience" value.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Marky Mark <mdmota@yahoo.com.au>:
>Kremti wrote:
>>So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
>>magic lamp.
>>The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically, I
>>was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.
>Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
>questionable stratergy

It seems very common amongst those who ascend a lot.

>but to do so whilst you have the Eyes of overworld is very silly.

One might not always want to be wearing the Eyes.

Regardless, many reported and fixed bugs involve things that don't
ordinarily crop up. I would recommend that the OP reports this one, since
I can't see it in the known bugs list, but C343-93 suggests astral vision
is still a bit dodgy.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Brieday, April.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Marky Mark <mdmota@yahoo.com.au>:
>
>>Kremti wrote:
>>
>>>So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
>>>magic lamp.
>>>The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically, I
>>>was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.
>>
>>Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
>>questionable stratergy
>
>
> It seems very common amongst those who ascend a lot.
>
I would argue that those who ascend a lot are so good that they ascend
/despite/ not trying for the extra wish. I don't believe the light
source is so valuable; I've found that simply by being aware when the
oil lamp is on, I can avoid ever running out of charges. I typically
find 3-4 lamps, and if I find more than 7 candles I can use those too.
Just be sure not to rest/sacfest/etc while the lamp is on.

To a good player a wish doesn't really change the outcome of the game
much, but unless I can see I'll have a shortage of light source in a
game, I'll go ahead and try for the wish. I may, of course, still save
the wish with the intention of getting a cockatrice corpse for the
ascension run, or something along those lines.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Marky Mark" <mdmota@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
>questionable stratergy,

Not at all; having a lamp will save you from a significant number of
unpleasant situations, and having a *magic* lamp saves you the effort of
finding replacements and allows you to dilute away your oil to make more
holy water.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
Everyone expected the Bavarian Inquisition.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:

> Quoting Marky Mark <mdmota@yahoo.com.au>:
>>Kremti wrote:
>>>So, my last wizard was carrying the Eyes of overworld (wished) and
>>>magic lamp.
>>>The 'light' from lamp seems to go through the walls. Specifically,
>>>I was able to see the squares behind walls in Gehennom as lit area.
>>Carrying a magic lamp soley for a source of perminant light is a
>>questionable stratergy
>
> It seems very common amongst those who ascend a lot.
>
I almost never have a magic lamp with me. However, i am only one
person. Oil lamps or light spells and wands are my source of light.
Light is important but magic lamps are better used for the wish with
early characters. If you find a late lamp and don't need the wish,
then sure, keep it. But an early lamp when one doesn't have MR,
reflection, or any important resistance is just asking for trouble.



Jorge
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

jorge estrada <jestrada5@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I almost never have a magic lamp with me. However, i am only one
>person. Oil lamps or light spells and wands are my source of light.
>Light is important but magic lamps are better used for the wish with
>early characters.

An early character may well not yet have a coaligned altar available to
produce holy water, nor enough resources to survive converting the
Minetown altar, nor enough potions to fill his pack with potions of water
and use the confused-RC trick, so might as well use the magic lamp as a
permanent light source. It is unusual for them to be blessed when found.

I would certainly *never* burn off a solitary magic lamp before reaching
the top level of Sokoban; I'll spend random early wishes (fountain if
I'm being so reckless as to quaff from fountains in the early game,
thrones, smoky potions) on (in order) speed boots (will save more
low-level characters than, well, just about anything, as they let you
outpace leucrottas and soldier ants), a reflection source, and an MR
source, but a magic lamp is useful and doesn't have to be spent
immediately, so why spend it before you know what the Sokoban reward is?

(Refusing to do Sokoban is an unregistered conduct, and one that makes
your game harder; preserving your first magic lamp is a strategy.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
Everyone expected the Bavarian Inquisition.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:

> jorge estrada <jestrada5@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>I almost never have a magic lamp with me. However, i am only one
>>person. Oil lamps or light spells and wands are my source of light.
>>Light is important but magic lamps are better used for the wish with
>>early characters.
>
> An early character may well not yet have a coaligned altar available
> to produce holy water, nor enough resources to survive converting
> the Minetown altar, nor enough potions to fill his pack with potions
> of water and use the confused-RC trick, so might as well use the
> magic lamp as a
> permanent light source. It is unusual for them to be blessed when
> found.

Well, i wouldn't use a non blessed lamp for a wish. Sure, if you can't
get holy water than use it as a light source. But as soon as i get
holy water i use it for MR. (usaully GSDM) if i don't already have
it. If i do i use it for refection.







> I would certainly *never* burn off a solitary magic lamp before
> reaching the top level of Sokoban; I'll spend random early wishes
> (fountain if I'm being so reckless as to quaff from fountains in the
> early game, thrones, smoky potions) on (in order) speed boots (will
> save more low-level characters than, well, just about anything, as
> they let you outpace leucrottas and soldier ants), a reflection
> source, and an MR source, but a magic lamp is useful and doesn't
> have to be spent immediately, so why spend it before you know what
> the Sokoban reward is?

Because you might die before then without reflection. I don't need the
light permanent. I can do the mines on one oil lamp and by the time
your in the deep normal dungeon there are other light sources i use.
My favorite is the light spell. (i don't always get it, but am glad
when i do.)


> (Refusing to do Sokoban is an unregistered conduct, and one that
> makes your game harder; preserving your first magic lamp is a
> strategy.)

Sure, but one that isn't really needed for all people. I never have
been killed because i didn't have a permanent light source. I have
been killed by lack of MR ,speed or reflection, and although you can
wait until after sokobon for the wish, all it takes is that one game
where someone has a wand of MM,F,C or D and you have a blessed magic
lamp in you inventory for one to change their mind.

Jorge
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:

> [...] allows you to dilute away your oil [...]

Somehow, that doesn't seem right.

Oil cannot be diluted, it will float on the water instead.

I would suggest that when you dip a potion of oil, it is immediately
fully diluted to water.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <c2C*TbAMq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Not at all; having a lamp will save you from a significant number of
>unpleasant situations, and having a *magic* lamp saves you the effort of
>finding replacements and allows you to dilute away your oil to make more
>holy water.

Does a magic lamp help with trap detection?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1114019232.811017.278130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Kremti <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:

>I had magic lamps coming out of my ears after experimenting with
>puddin' farmin'.

I've farmed to 8 million points (no script, won't touch that), but I've
never seen any lamp at all from this.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

[about keeping the magic lamp or not]
I ALWAYS try to have a magic lamp, I didn't find one in my last game I
got close to ascending(I Quitted after various frustrations, the most
annoying was loosing all my holy water without any potions to dilute to
get it back, when I had the amulet), but I find the light source to be
great in dark levels(which most seem to be further down). Yeah you
would probably be OK without it but I, IMHO, think that being to be able
to see whats coming towards you when in a dark corridor etc. would save
more lives then GDSM or something of that sort.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

BWIGLEY wrote:
> [about keeping the magic lamp or not]
> I ALWAYS try to have a magic lamp, I didn't find one in my last game I
> got close to ascending(I Quitted after various frustrations, the most
> annoying was loosing all my holy water without any potions to dilute to
> get it back, when I had the amulet), but I find the light source to be
> great in dark levels(which most seem to be further down). Yeah you
> would probably be OK without it but I, IMHO, think that being to be able
> to see whats coming towards you when in a dark corridor etc. would save
> more lives then GDSM or something of that sort.

I find that the only place that light has a significant effect
on my survival odds is in dark, open levels, early in the game when I'm
too weak to handle being surrounded. That pretty much just means the
Mines, and I usually find that the standard oil lamp that the magic lamp
becomes has enough fuel to light me through the Mines.

On the other hand, I find that 11 points of light armor that
doesn't interfere with spellcasting, plus reflection or magic
resistance, almost always has a significant effect on my survival odds.
Especially for the casters, for whom the alternative is a choice between
maybe 4 points of armor, or crippling their casting abilities and
probably being Burdened because their starting Strength is usually so
low.

If I find an early magic lamp, I'll use it, almost always on
[GS]DSM, as soon as I can get it blessed. If I find a second one, I may
keep it around for a bit, see if I can find what I want lying around the
dungeon before I burn a wish. And after the Castle is a different
story. I've usually got more wishes than I know what to do with at that
point, and a lot of the gear on my wish list picked up from random drops
in the dungeon, so eternal light is more valuable than things I could
still usefully wish for. Even then, though, I'll burn lamp wishes before
I burn the last couple wishes from the wand... I like keeping a couple
wishes in reserve for unforeseen emergencies (haven't had to use them
yet, but better safe than sorry, eh?), and in those cases, it's better
to have a one-zap-one-wish guarantee than a possibility of spending
several turns rubbing a lamp and getting nothing but a loose djinn for
my trouble.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <c2C*TbAMq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Not at all; having a lamp will save you from a significant number of
>>unpleasant situations, and having a *magic* lamp saves you the effort of
>>finding replacements and allows you to dilute away your oil to make more
>>holy water.
>
> Does a magic lamp help with trap detection?

Not sure what you are thinking of here... - a lamp as trap detector?

But all lamps at least help avoiding traps; you don't need to step on
as many floor tiles as would be necessary if you explore unlit reagions
without lamps, thus reducing the probability of detecting the traps the
bad way. (Assuming here you have no other means of detection; like magic
mapping or clairvoyance.)

And if you were refering to Martins "unpleasant situations"; they also
help you see monsters before they are adjacent to you.

Janis
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <d49fnb$s7e$1@news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>,
Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

>Somehow, that doesn't seem right.
>
>Oil cannot be diluted, it will float on the water instead.
>
>I would suggest that when you dip a potion of oil, it is immediately
>fully diluted to water.

And how about a possibilty for the oil on the water to ignite, making a
pool or fountain into a fire trap for one or more rounds, for example?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1114019232.811017.278130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Kremti <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I had magic lamps coming out of my ears after experimenting with
> >puddin' farmin'.
>
> I've farmed to 8 million points (no script, won't touch that), but
I've
> never seen any lamp at all from this.

Well, I suppose I was lucky. I netted 3 magic lamps, Helm of
Brilliance (which my wizard was missing and needed), at least 2
complete sets of spellbooks, and great amount of protection and hps.

-K
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On that special day, Janis Papanagnou, (Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com)
said...

> > Does a magic lamp help with trap detection?
>
> Not sure what you are thinking of here... - a lamp as trap detector?

This should only work for the most obvious traps, like pits or loose
squeaky boards. I don't think you could see an arrow trap that easily.


Gabriele Neukam

Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


--
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
just so, at no cost.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Gabriele Neukam wrote:
> On that special day, Janis Papanagnou, (Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com)
> said...
>
>>>Does a magic lamp help with trap detection?
>>
>>Not sure what you are thinking of here... - a lamp as trap detector?
>
> This should only work for the most obvious traps, like pits or loose
> squeaky boards. I don't think you could see an arrow trap that easily.

Pits and squeaky boards are "obvious"?

Janis
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Gabriele Neukam wrote:
>
>> On that special day, Janis Papanagnou, (Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com)
>> said...
>>
>>>> Does a magic lamp help with trap detection?
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure what you are thinking of here... - a lamp as trap detector?
>>
>>
>> This should only work for the most obvious traps, like pits or loose
>> squeaky boards. I don't think you could see an arrow trap that easily.
>
>
> Pits and squeaky boards are "obvious"?
>
> Janis

If you have a magic lamp to shine magic light on them, yes, I would
venture to guess they are easily visible then.
Arrow traps, on the other hand, probably only consist of a trigger
plate melded nearly seamlessly into the floor and a small hole on the
ceiling or wall from whence the arrow is fired.

That's my train of thought anyway.
 
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