[SOLVED] 5950X non PBO / OC vs 5800X PBO / OC

dnm_13

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I'm thinking of taking an upgrade, which is upgrading to Ryzen 9 5950X from Ryzen 7 5800X.

Due to certain temporary circumstance, if I take the upgrade, I can't use PBO / OC on 5950X.

So the question is, which is better? 5950X without PBO / OC, or 5800X with PBO / OC ?
 
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Karadjgne

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Don't confuse PB with PBO.

PB (Precision Boost) is the algorithm that allows for 'turbo boosting' upto the cpus proscribed limits. It's enabled by default in all Ryzen cpus and part of the TDP of the cpu. The TDP of a 5950x is the same as the 5800x or 5800x3D.

All the Ryzens have set limits for power and short/long term amperage use. PBO changes those limits and can add upto 200MHz to the cores limit with AutoOC. Default is Auto (which is Off).

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3491-explaining-precision-boost-overdrive-benchmarks-auto-oc

In a nutshell, the 5800x, 5800x3D and 5950x are capable of reaching the 142w socket limit. If the cpu only actually uses 130w under loads because of thermal limitations, it will not matter if PPT is stock 142w or raised to 1000w, you only use 130w. So PBO enabled will do exactly nothing for the cpu. If your voltages and thermal limits would normally allow for 150w use, with default settings you'd be limited to 142w, which lowers your PB boost on 1 or more cores by a few MHz, but with PBO enabled you'd be able to hit the power target of 150w.

Non PBO = hard power limit set by AMD. PBO = soft power limit set by motherboard/bios vendor. The only limitations of PBO are hard limits set by the VRM's and other power regulatory components. A MSI Godlike or Asus Extreme motherboard will have vastly higher rated VRM's compared to the uber budget mobo's, so can deal with higher PBO power limits.

Ryzen will boost according to 3 things. Cpu voltages, cpu temps and loads. The only thing PBO can or will do is allow for relaxed limitations of boosting, but only if those 3 things are satisfied first. To put it simply, it's having a 70mph speed limit governer on a motor. The car otherwise will reach 100mph, but if pulling a heavy trailer and the car can only do 55mph, the governer enabled or disabled makes exactly no difference. It's only when there's no trailer, no cops, no traffic that enabling PBO (disabling the governer) would allow the car to reach 100mph instead of the governed 70mph.
 
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dnm_13

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its not like you cant use PBO, with PBO you can set cpu limits so it wont overclock over those limits

looking at your other posts, its a gaming PC right? then go for 5800x3D
It feels like a waste to switch from 5800X to 5800X3D, since I would also use the PC for multitasking, the performance drop from being unable to use PBO trade off just doesn't appeal to me even though game performance is top notch (unless I'm wrong / misunderstood about something).

There might be 5950X3D, and since it's with 3D V-cache it means it can't use PBO / OC (just like 5800X3D). I know 5950X is the flagship of 5000 series, but is it still better even without PBO against 5800X ?
 

Math Geek

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if you are not using all the threads the 5950 brings, then it is a waste. they are the same gen cores so the ipc should be roughly the same. so in this case, the cpu speed matters a good bit.

if you don't need the cores, then the 5950x will give you little benefit and is not worth it. using 4-6 cores of one vs the other will come down to speed of the core.

so overall does not sound like you need it and it would be a waste of cash. again only if you have an actual need for all those extra cores is it worth doing.
 

dnm_13

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This might sound exaggerated (or maybe not), but believe me that this is honest to god my situation.
I'm not the most tidy person; I keep everything up even though I don't have any use of them for a long moment.
I do code, using VSC that sometimes I keep 5 windows of it, and also VS.
There'll always a game running either on foreground or background (AFK job), and it's open-world kind of game (BDO).
I even play another game while that game I mentioned above is still running (Rainbow Six or CS;GO).
Did I mentioned about recording? and also video editting using Adobe Premiere (and Photoshop too).
Oh, and browsers. Multiple of them; windows, tabs, and versions (Chrome, Firefox, IE).
Sometimes, I need to boot up Linux on Virtual Box, which is mostly about compatibility issue (Redis don't / have limitted support on Windows).
I also use this PC for work, so there'll always be lots of MS Office (Word, Powerpoint, Excel), and it's not only one or two window for each app.
Aside from that, there's minor apps that also runs on background such as Discord, WhatsApp, and LINE.

I'm not sure whether all of that count as multitasking though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

if you are not using all the threads the 5950 brings, then it is a waste. they are the same gen cores so the ipc should be roughly the same. so in this case, the cpu speed matters a good bit.

if you don't need the cores, then the 5950x will give you little benefit and is not worth it. using 4-6 cores of one vs the other will come down to speed of the core.

so overall does not sound like you need it and it would be a waste of cash. again only if you have an actual need for all those extra cores is it worth doing.
Honestly I still don't know whether it'll make a good upgrade or not. Since my 5800X is still able to keep up with me at ease.
Like I've mentioned above, it's more about 3D V-Cache that might come with 5950X. Yes, there's 5800X3D. But I feel like it's such a waste to switch from 5800X to 5800X3D. It doesn't feel like upgrade, yet I paid for more and doesn't gain any real benefit from it (it's a trade off between CPU speed with gaming performance).

If turns out 5950X without PBO (the 3D version of it) is much slower than 5800X with PBO, I might reconsider about taking the upgrade.
 

DSzymborski

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What is the temporary circumstance that doesn't allow you to use PBO? Being specific would give us the fullest understanding of the issue.

Some of the stuff you listed, more cores are helpful. For a lot of the things, the cores are rather irrelevant. Windows doesn't simply give every little browser or Office instance a core like a poker dealer dealing a hand. When you're doing these things, are all your cores maxed out? It doesn't make sense to speculate about your theoretical core usage when you have actual core usage to look at.
 
I'm thinking of taking an upgrade, which is upgrading to Ryzen 9 5950X from Ryzen 7 5800X.

Due to certain temporary circumstance, if I take the upgrade, I can't use PBO / OC on 5950X.

So the question is, which is better? 5950X without PBO / OC, or 5800X with PBO / OC ?
Which MB ? 400 chipset series have PBO which is not efficient on Zen3 and PBO works differently fron PBO2.
 
pbo is cpu techology, not a mobo one, you will need agesa 1.1.8.0 at minimum which i believe even 300 serie chipsets are at 1.2.0.7 now

PBO works differently fron PBO2
a bit better single core performance, almost no change to multicore performance, you still get same current/thermal limits as with pbo1

undervolting with curve optimiser brings more performance on table (depends on silicon lottery)
 
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dnm_13

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What is the temporary circumstance that doesn't allow you to use PBO? Being specific would give us the fullest understanding of the issue.

When you're doing these things, are all your cores maxed out? It doesn't make sense to speculate about your theoretical core usage when you have actual core usage to look at.
Striked the temporary part. It probably would be forever.
I thought 3D CPUs (such as 5800X3D) can't use PBO?

For the second question: I don't know. Didn't look at task manager when I do all of it. I think I will when I got back home.

Which MB ? 400 chipset series have PBO which is not efficient on Zen3 and PBO works differently fron PBO2.
X570.
Seems like the temporary part made a huge misunderstanding here. My bad.

BTW, how worse it is for performance other than gaming on 5800X3D compared to 5800X ? capped at 3.7GHz, compared to 4.7GHz boost from PBO, I think there's a noticable loss?
 

Karadjgne

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Don't confuse PB with PBO.

PB (Precision Boost) is the algorithm that allows for 'turbo boosting' upto the cpus proscribed limits. It's enabled by default in all Ryzen cpus and part of the TDP of the cpu. The TDP of a 5950x is the same as the 5800x or 5800x3D.

All the Ryzens have set limits for power and short/long term amperage use. PBO changes those limits and can add upto 200MHz to the cores limit with AutoOC. Default is Auto (which is Off).

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3491-explaining-precision-boost-overdrive-benchmarks-auto-oc

In a nutshell, the 5800x, 5800x3D and 5950x are capable of reaching the 142w socket limit. If the cpu only actually uses 130w under loads because of thermal limitations, it will not matter if PPT is stock 142w or raised to 1000w, you only use 130w. So PBO enabled will do exactly nothing for the cpu. If your voltages and thermal limits would normally allow for 150w use, with default settings you'd be limited to 142w, which lowers your PB boost on 1 or more cores by a few MHz, but with PBO enabled you'd be able to hit the power target of 150w.

Non PBO = hard power limit set by AMD. PBO = soft power limit set by motherboard/bios vendor. The only limitations of PBO are hard limits set by the VRM's and other power regulatory components. A MSI Godlike or Asus Extreme motherboard will have vastly higher rated VRM's compared to the uber budget mobo's, so can deal with higher PBO power limits.

Ryzen will boost according to 3 things. Cpu voltages, cpu temps and loads. The only thing PBO can or will do is allow for relaxed limitations of boosting, but only if those 3 things are satisfied first. To put it simply, it's having a 70mph speed limit governer on a motor. The car otherwise will reach 100mph, but if pulling a heavy trailer and the car can only do 55mph, the governer enabled or disabled makes exactly no difference. It's only when there's no trailer, no cops, no traffic that enabling PBO (disabling the governer) would allow the car to reach 100mph instead of the governed 70mph.
 
Last edited:

dnm_13

Honorable
Oct 3, 2016
72
4
10,545
1
Don't confuse PB with PBO.

PB (Precision Boost) is the algorithm that allows for 'turbo boosting' upto the cpus proscribed limits. It's enabled by default in all Ryzen cpus and part of the TDP of the cpu. The TDP of a 5950x is the same as the 5800x or 5800x3D.

All the Ryzens have set limits for power and short/long term amperage use. PBO changes those limits and can add upto 200MHz to the cores limit with AutoOC. Default is Auto (which is Off).

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3491-explaining-precision-boost-overdrive-benchmarks-auto-oc

In a nutshell, the 5800x, 5800x3D and 5950x are capable of reaching the 142w socket limit. If the cpu only actually uses 130w under loads because of thermal limitations, it will not matter if PPT is stock 142w or raised to 1000w, you only use 130w. So PBO enabled will do exactly nothing for the cpu. If your voltages and thermal limits would normally allow for 150w use, with default settings you'd be limited to 142w, which lowers your PB boost on 1 or more cores by a few MHz, but with PBO enabled you'd be able to hit the power target of 150w.

Non PBO = hard power limit set by AMD. PBO = soft power limit set by motherboard/bios vendor. The only limitations of PBO are hard limits set by the VRM's and other power regulatory components. A MSI Godlike or Asus Extreme motherboard will have vastly higher rated VRM's compared to the uber budget mobo's, so can deal with higher PBO power limits.

Ryzen will boost according to 3 things. Cpu voltages, cpu temps and loads. The only thing PBO can or will do is allow for relaxed limitations of boosting, but only if those 3 things are satisfied first. To put it simply, it's having a 70mph speed limit governer on a motor. The car otherwise will reach 100mph, but if pulling a heavy trailer and the car can only do 55mph, the governer enabled or disabled makes exactly no difference. It's only when there's no trailer, no cops, no traffic that enabling PBO (disabling the governer) would allow the car to reach 100mph instead of the governed 70mph.
Thanks for the explanation.
Just checked AMD's official website, and it looks like you're right; disabled PBO doesn't mean it'll be locked on stock core speed (3.4GHz).

Although I have one more question.
If 3D V-Cache means 3d stacking cache, which also means placing 3 times more cache than the normal variant (5800X have 32Mb, while 5800X3D have 96Mb), does that also means 5950X3D would have 192Mb cache in total? (5950X have 64Mb cache).

Which also means it's far more better for gaming than 5800X3D because it has much more L3 cache?
 
Thanks for the explanation.
Just checked AMD's official website, and it looks like you're right; disabled PBO doesn't mean it'll be locked on stock core speed (3.4GHz).

Although I have one more question.
If 3D V-Cache means 3d stacking cache, which also means placing 3 times more cache than the normal variant (5800X have 32Mb, while 5800X3D have 96Mb), does that also means 5950X3D would have 192Mb cache in total? (5950X have 64Mb cache).

Which also means it's far more better for gaming than 5800X3D because it has much more L3 cache?
its 96MB per CCD, you can see it on epyc CPUs
so if they would make 5900x/5950x, it would have 192MB cache

dunno about gaming as its 2x96MB not single 192MB
gaming or not probably no change unless game engine would be aware of this cache to utilise it properly
 
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Although I have one more question.
If 3D V-Cache means 3d stacking cache, which also means placing 3 times more cache than the normal variant (5800X have 32Mb, while 5800X3D have 96Mb), does that also means 5950X3D would have 192Mb cache in total? (5950X have 64Mb cache).

Which also means it's far more better for gaming than 5800X3D because it has much more L3 cache?
No, because most games don't take full advantage of a 8C/16T CPU anyway. It's also not a good idea to have threads hopping around CCXes.

Something like a 5950X is only useful for people who have workloads that can saturate the CPU, such as video encoding or doing a Blender render.
 
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Math Geek

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yup as a gaming cpu it is not worth it at all. i went with a 5900x myself due to my massive use of VM's. i needed the extra threads to be able to run all the vm's i usually run.

for just a gaming cpu i'd have stick with a 5600x or maybe the 5800x if the price was right. anything more is just a waste
 
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Karadjgne

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Cache use is game dependent. Some games can make very good use of increased Lcache, as such, in those games the 5800X3D is untouchable, topping even a 12900k with OC. In other games that don't make use of Lcache amounts, the 5800X3D isn't any better than the 5800x. So gains will vary.
 

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