AGP Platform Analysis, Part 1: New Cards, Old System

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No, sorry... same benches as in the first round.

I am going to include Company of Heroes in the future though. Maybe I'll add NWN2 if there's more demand for those benches.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to get an AGP X1650 XT in time for testing, either. But if I can get a hold of one, I'll try to use it in a separate review...
 
Long Time reader, first time poster.

I have some info for you guys looking for x1950pro benchmarks on games.

First my setup:

P4 Northwood 3.0GHz Oc'ed to 3.75GHz
DDR 3500 4 x 512 MB (ddr3200 oc'ed)
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe
HIS x1950pro 512 (621/750)

here is fraps:

2007-01-18 11:06:35 - R6Vegas_Game 1024x768 all settings maximum
Frames: 59625 - Time: 1735939ms - Avg: 34.347 - Min: 0 - Max: 75

2007-01-18 16:18:01 - nwn2main 1280x1024 all settings max apart from shadows which are on lowFrames: 146874 - Time: 3794546ms - Avg: 38.706 - Min: 0 - Max: 78

2007-01-18 17:23:52 - BF2142 1024 x 768 4xaa 16xaf all settings max
Frames: 199 - Time: 2666ms - Avg:74.643- Min: 72 - Max: 76

2007-01-18 17:23:58 - BF2142 TITAN MODE 1024 x 768 4xaa 16xaf all settings maxFrames: 3964 - Time: 58957ms - Avg: 67.235 - Min: 1 - Max: 78

2007-01-18 22:23:48 - DarkCrusade 1280 x 1024 8player max settings
Frames: 80 - Time: 1211ms - Avg: 66.061 - Min: 66 - Max: 66

2007-01-18 22:23:51 - DarkCrusade online 6 players online 1280 x 1024 max settings, online syncs frames with slowest players PCFrames: 113607 - Time: 3886767ms - Avg: 29.229 - Min: 0 - Max: 78


I replaced my BFG 6800gt oc'ed to 410/1150 and saw massive improvements, NWN 2 went from unplayable to silky smooth and Call of Duty 2 I can now run at 1280x1024 4xaa 8xaf all settings on max and smoke blend set to "everything" and it is a constant 45-75 FPS, from game start to finish!!!

Also Oblivion is Remarkable with this card, it was obviously designed to make optimum use of the ring bus architecture, I play with all settings on max (draw distance,grass,tres etc) and outdoors at 1280x1024 with HDR I get an average of 45FPS, I was overjoyed! So Tamriel is getting a revisit now!

I highly recommend this card if you have a "decent" AGP platform, I saw a 10% drop in FPS when I turned off my Overclock on the CPU!

just my 2 pence!

I got mine from www.overclockers.co.uk, click on the card for my review there too!

Compared to buying a PCI-express mobo, cpu, gpu and the required RAM, I get the performance of a PCI-e 1900xt with HDCP for a 3rd of the price and "oh look" PCI-Express 2.0 is defined now and "oct+" cores will be out by the end of the year, get a 1950 pro, we have let the early adopters pay for us to get this far, PCI-E has finished it's teething period (problems and price) just in time to be made redundant, no games make use of dual core to any tangible degree as developers are just getting the tools to develop for them, and with this card you turn your PC into a xbox 360 equivalent (Oblivion looks BETTER in 1280x 1024 2xaa 45-100 FPS than in 1280x720 15-30 FPS on a xbox 360 PLUS YOU CAN USE A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD!!)

End of the year I will have a top media centre PC that will play all games fine at 1280x1024 or lower and jump over the PCI-E stop gap (inevitable really) and get blistering performance again at the best bang for buck when I build a system Jan 08 when they might have just ironed out all the Vista DX10 driver issues and hardware incompatabilities!!

Regards,

Happy x1950pro'er
 
PS, did you see the sales on at FutureShop this week?
Just a heads'-up for the Canadians out there, finally some pricing near that of NewEgg;

X1950Pro AGP $100 off.
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10081500&catid=10524&logon=&langid=EN

$250CAD is one of the best prices I've seen yet, and much more than een their 'sale' price of the GF7800GS @ $369;
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10072450&catid=10524&logon=&langid=EN

X1650Pro AGP and PCIe for $169;
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10081930&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10081934&catid=

GF7600GS is much more @ $219 (almost X1950P pricing);
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10081478&catid=

Also can't believe they still sell the FX5500. :roll:

NCIX is probably the best place to find good prices on the GF7 series in AGP.

Also FS is already pimping the Vista options in this week's flyer "available Jan30", so there may be a new tes for part 3 in the spring/summer for you. :twisted:
 
Cleeve said:
In the PCIe side though, I find the X1950 PRO beats the 7900 GS more often than not, so if you folks on the other side of the pond have the choice but the X1950 PRO is notably cheaper it's probably your best bet anyway.

The earlier Gainward 7800gs+ are 24pp 8v are 7900GT not 7900GS

I have Gainward 7800GS+ with 24pp 8v and have overclocked and i score at 9718 3dmark05 5347 in 3dmark06 cpu X2 4200@2.7 in the same test the 7900gt beats the 1950 but i would by the 1950 its alot cheaper and the performance of the cards are very similar
 
Also can't believe they still sell the FX5500.
You lucky Canadians. :tongue:

Yep, Iguess for the US the FX5200 is the card of choice, look sold out;
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7729041&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat107700050041&id=1140392153993

:twisted:

I tell you that knob who said the fanboys are killing the markt by buying the GTX/GTS misses the point, the people hurting the market are the idjits still buying the FX/MX RadeonSEs because it shows that there's a market for CRAP!
 
After reading all the messages (and having a good laugh at some <g>), I'm getting mixed messages about what I should do with my system. Please note I am not a DIYer for entire systems, but I can install things like video cards and memory. My current system is a Dell XPS (first generation) from around September of 2003 with:

Pentium 4 3.0GHz (800MHz bus clock)
2GB RAM (this was upgraded from the original 1GB)
VisionTek ATI Radeon X850 XT PE 256M AGP (upgraded from the original 9800 Pro)

Up until now, the only thing that pushed my system was Everquest 2 in a raid situation, and even that wasn't too bad. Oblivion plays fine. However, I'm now playing the Vanguard beta, and plan to continue when Vanguard is released, and that game will push your system until it drops (I'm getting 2 FPS in cities on High Performance setting). I had thought I was going to have to get a new computer system until I saw that the X1950 Pro AGP cards were coming out. However, I can't tell if the 3.0GHz CPU is going to be a bottleneck on that card. Some of you seem to think so, others not.

Any advice, or any chance of including a P4 3.0GHz in the next article? (Cleeve could accept those CPU offers <g>)

BTW, Vanguard might be a great game to include in future tests, since it will be out Jan 30th.

P.S. Please note that while I have enjoyed my current Dell system, and have not had any problems, I will not be going with Dell when I next get a computer, as companies like AVA Direct, Maingear, and Velocity Micro seem to have much better service and lower prices than Dell. So no comments about my buying a Dell :)
 
That game is still in beta and they have not given official system requirements, but it sounds like you should be more than fine with your cpu and gpu. What you have to watch is if the game is cpu bound for you, then adding the x1950 pro would do little besides possibly allowing any SM3.0 only effects or giving the power for FSAA/HQAF. I'd wait for the real game and find out if it's a GPU or CPU or just internet connection limited game. You could test if for yourself now with the beta and see if lowering the resolution and keeping details the same adds to your fps. If you get the basically identical performance at your detail levels at 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768, etc. then you are CPU bound. If lowering the resolution from 10x7 to 6x4 increases the framerates, you are GPU bound. Of course, being in beta, keep in mind you may find alot more performance in the final release and with newer drivers.
 
Hey thanks for the article, this is really useful. I'll be looking forward to part 2 since I have a 3400+/AGP system. It would be nice to see the overclocking results with that too, mine will go from 2.4 up to 2.6, almost a 10% increase, so something like that should show a difference if it's CPU bound.

Also, a request, it would be really nice to see a test with a 8800GTS or GTX, whichever you have handy to see how far you have to go before you hit the bottleneck. With such a price difference between the AGP and PCI-e varieties of cards here in the US, it's cheaper to get a pci-e mobo and the pci-e card, than it is to get the same AGP card alone... crazy. I figure that's a route a lot of people might choose, so it would be nice to see where the bottleneck stands.

For reference, I have a 6600GT 550/1100oc, I'm thinking of getting an 8600 GT or Ultra when they come out in March. If the GTX isn't bottlenecked then I'll know I could go SLI with that in the future and be alright. If the limit is lower I can save $30 by getting a mobo with just one pci-e slot.

Thanks again for a great article,

don
 
Good article. Many people still use AGP, and will for some time longer. PCI-E is the biggest roadblock to people upgrading their PC perhaps ever. Sure, you want a new proc, but do you want to have to buy a new graphics card as well ? and new ram too ?

This week I ordered a new proc, but I got a motherboard that uses my DDR and X800 XT PE card. I wasn't even sure I needed a new cpu, but I like to keep up with the times. So my XP3200 is now my sons. Funny how that cpu is actually worth the same as what I paid for it in March of 2004, used. And it came with a motherboard, cooler, and sound card !

AGP is still valid. The real limiting factor ? the game you play. With huge wide screen LCD and much higher native resolutions, gamers are forced to upgrade. One game that doesn't force people to upgrade, because it uses simpler textures ? WoW. Maybe that is why there are 8 million people who enjoy that game. You can run it on a P III 800 and a Radeon 9500.

It will be many games from now before I buy PCI-E.
 
You could test if for yourself now with the beta and see if lowering the resolution and keeping details the same adds to your fps. If you get the basically identical performance at your detail levels at 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768, etc. then you are CPU bound. If lowering the resolution from 10x7 to 6x4 increases the framerates, you are GPU bound. Of course, being in beta, keep in mind you may find alot more performance in the final release and with newer drivers.
I do have the latest drivers and 7.1 Catalyst Control Center, and I game over highspeed DSL. Anyway, I normally run at 1280 x 1024, which is the native resolution on my monitor, and Vanguard only goes down to 1024 x 768. However, I did find that I get a few more fps at the lower resolution, and combined with the research that slava has done, which I've read, I think I will get a performance increase with the X1950 Pro AGP.

Thanks for the suggestions.
 
Iv been looking at the x1950 for a while now since im hesitant to upgrade my entire rig. Can anyone confirm that they are running the x1950 with a similar spec as mine, my main concern is my PSU as Ive researched. Ill also be waiting for Part 2 where they review the higher spec. CPU

3700+ 754 amd 64
1 gb pc3200
2 ATA HD's
5.1 live
XFX 6800GT Oc'd currently
Silentium T2 Case with Custom 350W Seasonic/Arctic PSU rated at 450W peak, 350W sustained.

My PSU is really good but it only has 17A on the 12V rail. Ive read that it will never work and then some that it will. Some poeple claim to have the card running on a 200W Shuttle case and some cannot use anything lower than 450W. Im hoping someone has my case or a 350-400W PSU and can attest that the x1950 runs fine so I can just order it and be done.

Anyone know if the sapphire draws more power than the powercolor due to due molexes?

shuttle running x1950

Silentium T2

thanks.
J
 
Whew that was a lot of reading 😛

Great article ! I'm glad ATI has finally got their heads out of their butts and come out with a decent card for AGP users !!!

I'm sorta in the same boat as many people here and can't wait for part 2 because I HAVE a higher end CPU...

I came into a bit of money in 2005 and splurged on an X800XT AIW to upgrade my P4 3.0Ghz system. Then I came into some MORE money...dilema, I just blew $800 on an AGP card and couldn't get my money back...what to do what to do...

I decided to build the kick assest AGP system I could afford...

AMD Athlon64 X2 4400+
ATI X800XT AIW
2GB DDR400
2x36GB 10 raptors in RAID0 (left over from previous system)
2x300GB Western 16mb cache in RAID 0
Gigabyte GA-8INXP mobo...

I spent quite a lot to build this rig and so far have been very pleased with the performance and I can't see myself selling it for a huge loss just to upgrade my videocard !

Thing is tomorrow I plan to order the Dell UltraSharp 2407FPW and at 1900*1200 I'm thinking my old X800XT is going to start to choke...Admittedly I mostly play WoW right now but Crysis is just around the corner so I am REALLY interested in seeing what this card can do on a more up to date system !!!

Thanks again for the great article !!!
 
Anyone know if the sapphire draws more power than the powercolor due to due molexes?
Besides the Sapphire and the PowerCooler cards, make sure you take a look at HIS Hightech H195PRQT256DDAN-R Radeon X1950PRO 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 AGP 4X/8X IceQ3 Turbo HDCP Video Card - Retail. It also comes in a 512M version. Anyway, the HIS (who gets great reviews) is the card I'll be purchasing in the middle of February. Unlike the Sapphire, it has a 6-pin power connector, which is what my Dell PSU has for the video card. I'm just trying to tide my system over until I purchase a new system later this year.

Since I have a Dell XPS first gen system (and replacing the PSU is almost impossible), I've been really trying to figure out power requirements for the X1950 Pro. What I've been able to find is that (according to ATI) it wants a 450W PSU (assuming a fully loaded system), with 30A on the 12V rail. I have a 460W PSU in my Dell, but can't find the specifics for the 12V rail 🙁 From what I understand, Dell PSUs are generally very good, so I'm hoping I won't have a problem.

According to http://xtreview.com/review154.htm (despite the bad english <g>), the X1950 Pro requires 228W.

This is the article that is really interesting! http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/395/4/ According to this, the SYSTEM usage was only 219W at full load. No wonder some people are running it in a 200W shuttle. The article also says 20A on the 12V rail should be fine. Since Guru3d's article on the X850 XT PE showed a peak system power usage of 260W, and my current card is an X850 XT PE, I'm thinking my PSU is going to be just fine.

Basically, by buying from NewEgg, I have 30 days to see if the HIS card will work in my system, and if not, I can return it and only lose 15% of the purchase price as a "restocking fee." If it doesn't work, then my X850 XT PE will be the last card this system has, and I'll be playing Vanguard on the second lowest settings.

If anyone has more information on a Dell XPS first gen PSU, please post it here.
 
Nice, do tell what happens with your setup. The PSU rating should be a sticker on either left/right side of the PSU.
Would've been nice to find it in the documentation without having to open the case :roll: :lol:
 
Cleeve,

Does THG ever use Flight Sim (either FS9 or the now-current FS X) as a benchmark? The FS community is having a hard time getting FS X to run smoothly because of the high-end hardware requirements. I have an Athlon64 3500+, 2x1 GB matched Corsair dual-channel DDR400, Asus A8V Deluxe, dual SATA drives, and an ATI 9800 Pro 128. With FS9 and addons, I get a nice, playable 20-30 fps with all the sliders maxed.

FS X, on the other hand, is so doggy on my computer (which is really no slouch!), that I get 1-10 fps if I'm moving and 15 if the system isn't rendering any movement on the screen. This is with sliders at low settings.

I was wondering how FS X would play with some of these newer AGP cards, since there are a lot of flightsimmers out there who are in similar situations as I. I can't afford to build out a new system for (probably) 2 more years.

I'm considering the x1950 Pro as an upgrade, but wonder if I'm really going to see much benefit. According to the benchmarks I saw, I think I will see some, but not sure how much.

Thanks,

Relkin
 
Most of your system is good enough, but that 9800 Pro is holding you back. Even a 6600GT bests a 9800 Pro in most tests by 30-80% more FPS at 1024x768, ( http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2277&p=3 ) and a 7600GT typically has double the performance of a 6600GT. So a video card upgrade will surely help you out to a large degree. Even though FS-x, like all FS's are a more CPU intensive app than most games, your CPU is actually pretty good. a 3500+ is approximately equivalent to a X2 4400+, since the second core isn't used by games yet. You could increase your performance a lot just by upgrading the video card, but you might want to consider also getting a PCI-e motherboard, and the PCI-e variant of the card you're looking at. It would most likely end up the same price total as the AGP card alone. Later on, down the road, when you decide to upgrade your CPU, RAM, etc, at least you could still use your videocard... That's my plan. Similar boat, but I already have a 6600GT, so I'm not quite as bad off as you are at the moment :)
 
TucsonPi said:
Most of your system is good enough, but that 9800 Pro is holding you back. Even a 6600GT bests a 9800 Pro in most tests by 30-80% more FPS at 1024x768, ( http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2277&p=3 ) and a 7600GT typically has double the performance of a 6600GT. So a video card upgrade will surely help you out to a large degree. Even though FS-x, like all FS's are a more CPU intensive app than most games, your CPU is actually pretty good.[/q]

Yea, I realize it's my video card and with it being AGP, I have been really concerned about investing in "dead" technology.

TusconPi said:
a 3500+ is approximately equivalent to a X2 4400+, since the second core isn't used by games yet.[/q]

That's interesting. I haven't done much research on the X2s compared to the single core chips. I know that non of the MSFS series explicitly usees the second core because of the way they designed FS (fibers & whatnot), but people do note a significant difference because the OS and other ancillary functions can run on the other core, giving MSFS the whole CPU. This is purely anecdotal, but worthy of investigation.

You could increase your performance a lot just by upgrading the video card, but you might want to consider also getting a PCI-e motherboard, and the PCI-e variant of the card you're looking at. It would most likely end up the same price total as the AGP card alone. Later on, down the road, when you decide to upgrade your CPU, RAM, etc, at least you could still use your videocard... That's my plan. Similar boat, but I already have a 6600GT, so I'm not quite as bad off as you are at the moment :)

My dilemma continues because of the "wife factor". She has to understand the value of it, and I know she won't. (That's not really related to the video issue, though hehe.) Anyhow, since I'm not rich enough to afford a whole new AM2-based system, but recognize now, after re-checking my current mobo capabilities that I can just upgrade my CPU anytime to X2 (yea!). This makes upgrading much easier. I'll probably end up buying a new socket 939 mobo and video card (or two, if I can get away with it), and upgrade the processor later. After I upgrade the processor, I'll move the old mobo/proc/video into my wife's computer. :) Then, my wife's old parts can be migrated to my 3rd box to make a better server than I have now. hmmmmm this could work!

So, I think, based on the stuff I have read, I'm not going to upgrade the video to another AGP card. It will cost a little more, but I think I can get more value from upgrading other components at the same time. Thanks for that insight, TucsonPi!

Relkin
 
Pretty much agree with what you are saying about the video cards (more or less) but have issue with this:

Even though FS-x, like all FS's are a more CPU intensive app than most games, your CPU is actually pretty good. a 3500+ is approximately equivalent to a X2 4400+, since the second core isn't used by games yet.

Yes, FS games are cpu intensive... which is why that 3500 is NOT pretty good IMO. (at least not for fsX) Yes, he needs a new vid card and would see the largest tangible return for his money on that purchase. BUT perhaps not in fsX.

"since the 2nd core is not used"? where have you been man? there are alot of games that support (in one form or another) dual core right now, and fsX does if you tweak: look here

also, even if the game does not "support" it you can get improvement as all of your background stuff can run on the second core while the first one is focused solely on the game.

No matter how you shake it, you get more performance with dual core... ESPECIALLY with FS games.

Not mad or anything, just giving my 2 bits. 😉