AGP Platform Analysis, Part 1: New Cards, Old System

[titan_tgforumz]

Thanks for the link. It's been so hard to find benchmarks for CoH, most sites stick to a few main games and call it a day 🙁

 

[potoroo]

Still only one win for the 7600 GS... the rest is ties and clear X1650 PRO wins. Still seems like a clean sweep in favor of the X1650 PRO to me.

You have a strange definition of clean sweep. Where I come from 10/10 is a clean sweep. 6/10 is merely good.

 

[cleeve]

You have a strange definition of clean sweep. Where I come from 10/10 is a clean sweep. 6/10 is merely good.

Heheh. Well as I see it, it's more like 6 vs 1... unless you count the ties for both, in which case it's 9 vs 4.

I'm comfortable with calling those clean sweeps. If you want to quibble over verbage I can call it obvious superiority instead.

 

[sojrner]

Just to add something else to this mix. Not intended in any way to piss anyone off, just having some geek-fun. 😉

Definition: Clean Sweep

"if you make a clean sweep, you win a competition or an election very easily OR you win all the prizes in a competition."

Boolean logic would allow that if you get half of an "or" statement true, then the whole statement is true. (if x or y, then z. x = true, therefore z)

6-1 or 9-4 seems a handy victory by any measure, thus it is fair to say that the x1650pro makes a clean sweep of the competition. 8)

 

[potoroo]

Just to add something else to this mix. Not intended in any way to piss anyone off, just having some geek-fun. 😉

Definition: Clean Sweep

"if you make a clean sweep, you win a competition or an election very easily OR you win all the prizes in a competition."

Boolean logic would allow that if you get half of an "or" statement true, then the whole statement is true. (if x or y, then z. x = true, therefore z)

6-1 or 9-4 seems a handy victory by any measure, thus it is fair to say that the x1650pro makes a clean sweep of the competition. 8)

My New Oxford disagrees:

"2: win all of a group of similar or related sporting competitions, events or matches."

10-0 = clean sweep.
9-1 != clean sweep.

Anyway, if you really want to have some geek fun with dictionaries first Google "vaporware dictionary" and then read Vaporware: Why Apple Doesn't Blog.

 

[sojrner]

k, not really sure where you are going with that... was the link intended to show that you can spark ill-feelings even with good intentioned statements?If not then please explain. If so then oh-well, I guess some ppl just can't deal with the fact that they can be wrong sometimes. Remember, just b/c you are wrong on something is not a reflection on your character... how you DEAL with that scenario IS however.

As to the oxford... well, here in the USA oxford does not really do it for us. Webster was the man. 8) Having said that, your post is only part of the oxford def., The rest is here and says this for the part you missed: "remove all unwanted people or things ready to start afresh."

Now this does not directly support the definition I found, but is pretty close if you squint at it sideways.... but then you have to do that anyway when looking at "english"-english instead of American-english (sorry strange-stranger if you are listening, had to say it 😉 )

but wait, I have yet another dictionary backing me up:
dictionary.com
and it also supports my boolean logic post above... not that it matters.

The point is that this is all semantics, and if you WANT to go on and believe that the only way to call something a clean sweep is to skunk or shut-out the competition then fine, I will say that the actual goal was to win the review session and a 6-1 (or 9-4) score in reviews means a win of the session, thus for the entire "event" the score is 1-0... This is a clean sweep by BOTH of our personal definitions regardless of what ANY dictionary says.

But hey, I don't want to "miss the full range of communication" here and give offense... I would hate for this to become a "difficult stink". 😉

 

[cleeve]

Gentlemen! We should not bicker and argue over mere points of literary interpretation.

If it offends Mr. PotoRoo, I'm certain we can come to agree on a mutually acceptable term or phrase to describe the X1650 PRO that is unoffensive to everyone's sensibilities, such as 'obviously superior', 'clearly more powerful on average', or even 'Best in Class'. 😀

 

[sojrner]

Gentlemen! We should not bicker and argue over mere points of literary interpretation.

If it offends Mr. PotoRoo, I'm certain we can come to agree on a mutually acceptable and term or phrase to describe the X1650 PRO that is unoffensive to everyone's sensibilities, such as 'obviously superior', 'clearly more powerful on average', or even 'Best in Class'. 😀

:trophy: :mrgreen:

 

[blade85]

or we could just agree to disagree :roll:

 

[tweedy]

I've just replaced an ATI 9800Pro 128with a Sapphire X1950Pro AGP
and all of my games run smoother.I had intended to buy a new system but this upgrade means my system should be okay for at least another 18 month
I played FEAR,Quake4, HalfLife 2 on the old card, I don't know the frame rates but at default settings on 1024x768 the games were smooth and the visuals pretty good.

My PCMark05 and 06 score were ;
9800Pro 1545 and 135
1950Pro 5802 and 3453
So a significant improvement,but not as good as either X1950Pro tested byTG !!

My system is
P4 Northwood 2.5 oc to 2.85
2g Kingston PC3200 RAM
2 X 250G Hard drive

The motherboard is an ASUS P4PE.The BIOS only allow 4x AGP and 256 for the graphics card.

Can anyone advise me on any other CHEAP upgrade or other revision I can make to improve the performance of my system.

Thanks

 

[potoroo]

k, not really sure where you are going with that... was the link intended to show that you can spark ill-feelings even with good intentioned statements?If not then please explain.

It was a light-hearted attempt to deflect some of the seriousness about dictionaries and the like. It was about a controversy over the use of "vaporware" and the difficulty with dictionary definitions thereof. Perhaps the point was too subtle. I really wasn't feeling like a cat-fight today but the suggestion I might have wanted to "spark ill-feelings" is just too rich.

oxford def...says this for the part you missed: "remove all unwanted people or things ready to start afresh."

I didn't "miss" it. You'll notice the part I cited began with "2:". That means I chose to cite only the second meaning, in this case because the first wasn't relevant. Nevertheless I told you it was meaning #2.

The point is that this is all semantics,

Semantics matters.

and if you WANT to go on and believe that the only way to call something a clean sweep is to skunk or shut-out the competition then fine,

It's not merely a question of what I want. If any reviewer were to claim a clean sweep on any basis other than a shut-out then there'd be many millions of people around the world wondering what he or she had been smoking. In this case they'd be wondering how much ATI was paying the reviewer for the hype. Some might not care about this but surely a reviewer conscious of appearing credible would.

I will say that the actual goal was to win the review session and a 6-1 (or 9-4) score in reviews means a win of the session, thus for the entire "event" the score is 1-0... This is a clean sweep by BOTH of our personal definitions regardless of what ANY dictionary says.

Oh, come on! What have you been smoking? There were 10 tests. The X1650 Pro did not win them all hence no clean sweep. It's not rocket science.

The criticism of its initial pricing was that the price differential didn't justify the mostly modest performance benefit. Given the subsequent price decreases it's now arguably the better buy (although a ZDNet review noted with disdain the vast price differences for the X1650 Pro on the net could catch out the unwary). Surely that's enough.

 

[cleeve]

If any reviewer were to claim a clean sweep on any basis other than a shut-out then there'd be many millions of people around the world wondering what he or she had been smoking. In this case they'd be wondering how much ATI was paying the reviewer for the hype. Some might not care about this but surely a reviewer conscious of appearing credible would.

I'm a reviewer. Where are the millions of people who should be challenging my verbage? I haven't even gotten a single defamitory email about it yet!

Based on this statement you've either lost touch with reality, or you're making a mountain out of a molehill for the sake of argument. Either option is kind of silly.

Clearly there is precidence for calling an overwhelming victory a 'clean sweep', the argument is even backed by at least one dictionary definition. I can see your counterpoint, but I don't think that it warrants such a lofty hyperbole or indignant response.

'Obviously superior', 'clearly more powerful on average', or even 'Best in Class' suits me just fine. I'm pretty sure Sojrner can live with any of those too, I mean he used a trophy emoticion in response to them for chrissake. We're all good and happy gents now, so we don't have to get so excited about this anymore... I think the issue is pretty much resolved, eh mates?

 

[potoroo]

I'm a reviewer. Where are the millions of people who should be challenging my verbage? I haven't even gotten a single defamitory email about it yet!

A passing comment in a technical forum isn't going to reach the same audience as a published article.

Clearly there is precidence for calling an overwhelming victory a 'clean sweep', the argument is even backed by at least one dictionary definition. I can see your counterpoint, but I don't think that it warrants such a lofty hyperbole or indignant response.

It's not hyperbole. Politicians and marketers know that every letter they receive expressing an opinion represents a much larger number of people who share that opinion but who couldn't be bothered writing in. How they estimate this varies (a clearly personalised letter counts for more than a form letter that somebody merely signed), but the principle is valid. Claiming a clean sweep when the opposition scored a win would strike many people as hyperbole.

We're all good and happy gents now, so we don't have to get so excited about this anymore... I think the issue is pretty much resolved, eh mates?

I'm usually good and happy anyway but that line about "sparking ill-feeling" got my day off to a bad start.

 

[mitch074]

Find a better mobo/CPU combo; you should be able to find better than that, such as an ASrock s754 + Sempron64 2800+; both are cheap when new (far under a hundred bucks for the lot), and the CPU can be overclocked a nice bit with standard cooler.
It would allow wider AGP apertures and transfert (8x), and you'd get a not too little boost on the CPU too.

Of course, you could also scrap the whole thing and buy a C2D, but the combo I propose here is not too expensive, can reuse your RAM and graphics card, and would get you quite a boost - with possibilities for 64-bit later too (Vista 64?).

 

[cleeve]

It's not hyperbole.

I would argue that since a valid recognized dictionary gives the other argument credence, the argument is debatable.

Since it's debatable, it is not an obvious slam-dunk argument in your favor.

So the scenario you describe depends on unproven presumptions the imagined consequences of which seem quite exaggerated. Consequently, hyperbole.

 

[sojrner]

I'm usually good and happy anyway but that line about "sparking ill-feeling" got my day off to a bad start.

wow, how "rich" can it get here...?

It was a reference to the link that YOU put up here and I had tongue planted firmly in cheek for it all. (Apparently it proves some of the ideas that were IN said article)

My whole thing has been in fun. I enjoy logical arguments like that, and when something presents itself... well, I am a geek (everyone here is, else they would not be reading this) and I could not resist. :twisted:

Really, I was not intending to ruin your day. I would not like that to happen to me, and so for that I apologize. On the same page though, I still think that logically there are issues with where you are at. You are apparently not wanting this to continue (and Cleeve has pretty well ended it anyway) and so I will just leave it alone. 😉

...I'm pretty sure Sojrner can live with any of those too...

Completely. Well spoken man. 8)

So the scenario you describe depends on unproven presumptions the imagined consequences of which seem quite exaggerated. Consequently, hyperbole.

Even better... THAT is a logical slam-dunk. :trophy:

 

[potoroo]

You are apparently not wanting this to continue

While there are times I enjoy a good argument as much as the next bloke, the problem with this format is that if I respond to two or more people who happen to disagree with me I end up posting two or more times as much as everybody else and the next thing you know I'm being accused of being obsessive and bloody-minded. That's one reason why when I do reply I don't necessarily respond to absolutely each and every point someone has made, but it can still get out of hand. This isn't the most important subject in the world.

So the scenario you describe depends on unproven presumptions the imagined consequences of which seem quite exaggerated. Consequently, hyperbole.

Even better... THAT is a logical slam-dunk. :trophy:
It's good rhetoric but it's an argument with feet of clay. OTOH, I can't both tackle it and walk away at the same time, so I guess I'll walk away and we can all get back to discussing AGP cards and what have you.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

So let's recap.

Polkaroo complains that the GF7600GS isn't in your list, you explain why, yet he feels the GF7600GS isn't getting it's due.

Others, including myself, explain it's no longer a deal with the other options out there, he still wants the GF7600GS included because some knobs buy it, not because the argument is wrong and it's a good deal, just because it's still for sale or some other FX-style logic.

After posting a review that clearly shows a one-sided win to the point of allowably (according to at least one dictionary) being able to use the term Clean Sweep, now Polkaroo wants to pimps the respect of Oxford over Webster's. Your statement was off the cuff description, which can be seen as accurate, his reply "You have a strange definition of clean sweep" would be pretty much out of line. And interesting that he spends more time arguing of whether it's a clean sweep win, or a 'good' win, but not the fact that it is still a win.

Sounds to me like PolkaRoo doesn't really understand the point people are making and instead won't hear anything that doesn't say his proffered card is best, thus deflecting the discussion to talk of dictionaries. :roll:

The reality is the GS had it's time, it was a good and almost only option for AGP once, but now with cheap X1650Pro, GF7600GTs, X1650XTs and even X1950 sales the GS is no longer as strong a contenders, heck even in the OEM market they shifted to GF7300GTs instead of the GF7600GS.

So unless there's a more compelling reason than his 'the pull even' benchmark in response, there's not much else to say as even his own benchmarks show the GT as being significantly better than both. And with options not available to the GS like FP16HDR+AA and HD inverse Telecine (GT only), seems like the easy tie breakers are there even if there were a tie, which the combination of the reviews would show there wasn't to begin with.

Polkaroo reminds me of the Black Knight from Monty Python's the Holy Grail, it doesn't matter what evidence you provide he'll fight on simply for the sake of fighting. At least if he provided some ceomelling evidence that would validate a challenge to the clear explanation you gave, that might be understandable, but sofar the argument is pretty weak, other than a bunch of dolts bought one, heck with that logic, I expect to see some GFMXs in the next review and maybe an R9200SE for good measure. :roll:

I dont see any reason to continue wasting time on PolkaRoo considering the effort would be better spent reviewing the XGI Volari Duo V8, now get back to work! :twisted:

 

[Mach5Motorsport]

Polkaroo reminds me of the Black Knight from Monty Python's the Holy Grail, it doesn't matter what evidence you provide he'll fight on simply for the sake of fighting.

hmm, I was thinking more along the lines of the pet shop salesman (Michael Palin) in total denial of the Norwiegian Blue Parrot being dead, despite the facts displayed by the frustrated owner of the now-deceased parrot (John Cleese).

 

[sojrner]

He's bleeding deeemiised! :lol:

 

[cleeve]

Beautiful plumage!

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Yes that would be good too.

The unwavering denials of the ShopKeeper and the futile desire to fight that the Knight posses despite the fact that it's pointless, move on.

Maybe even throw in the poorly translated phrase book maker, "I will not buy this GS it it scratched" , "If I said you had a beautiful HSF would you hold it against me... I am no longer infected."

There you go, Polkaroo is now a Python-esque charicature.

And so appropriately...

"And now for something completely different..."

 

[sojrner]

It's...

 

[Slobogob]

Nice article and a much needed one since, as mentioned, the bottlenecking is a common topic of discussions. I´m already eager to read Part 2.

Me too, the XP2500 seemed to be the bottle neck on some tests, I have an XP3200 with a 850XT PE and I want to know if I'll have the same probel if I upgrade my GPU, roll on part 2

Like someone said, it's good to see reviews that are not high and most readers can relate to or have experiance with.
Indeed. Most reviews use the best available hardware possible to prevent limiting the featured products capabilities. While that is the scientific way to do a review, it has its shortcommings too.
I believe most people don´t buy all high end and if they use the reviewed product it will not perform as shown in the articles (obviously!). For the most part that is to be expected but some hardware can be more or less limited by other components and that´s hardly something that is being reviewed.
Imagine a fast Graphics card (lets call it Card A) that is severly CPU dependent that scores 100 Points in a fictive benchmark. Card B only makes 70 Points but doesn´t utilize the CPU at all. Depending on the system Card B could be the better choice.
I´m not sure how extreme the differences are between modern components (i´m not talking about GPUs only, but mainly), yet it would be interesting to know.

 

[Slobogob]

I'm not the only person in this thread who noted the 7600GS's conspicuous absence and pointing that out is constructive criticism. The X1950 Pro is interesting but the 7600GS is a lot more relevant in the real world, so any "AGP Roundup" with a clue would include it. I'm helping a lot of people with older systems upgrade and they're not buying the high end, they're buying the 7600GS as being the best balance of performance and value for them. I'm seeing that a lot. If you got out of your lab for a while you might learn something useful. THG isn't the only review site that puts too much emphasis on the high end but that doesn't make it right, nor does abusing me change the fact you stuffed up.

In the majority of cases it doesn´t make much sense to upgrade an old system with an almost one year old Mid-to-low-range card. Either people end up upgrading the whole system shortly after or they keep the system and become unhappy with their new Graphics Card a year later. Getting a 7600 GS right now can only be a stop gap measure if gaming is concerned.

If you think you've got an argument to put then fine but I assure you that you cannot bully me so give it up now.

That rotten Cleeve and his boys knocked me teef out! Bloody Bullies i say! :lol: