AGP Platform Analysis, Part 1: New Cards, Old System

[sojrner]

except that the fx60 platform is totally different. pci-e, chipset, cpu arch... there would be no direct comparison possible. Just looking at the charts and eyeballing it now with the current tests is just as useful as "directly" comparing. You can ballpark it but that is about it, which means it is really useless. 😉

 

[chonga]

I just plopped $50 down including shipping for an ati radeon 9800PRO

my rig was an amd athlon 2600+, 512mb @266mhz, fx5500

now it is amd athlon 2600+, 1gb @266mhz, radeon 9800 PRO

the fx5500 set-up could barely run doom 3 and cs:s.

hopefully with the upped ram and 9800 PRO i can run some newer titles like half life 2, farcry, and maybe even bf2 and quake 4 at lower settings.

if you're wondering why i bothered, i'm in college and graduate in may, but i need something cheap to hold me off till then and i only had $80 to spend.

wont get the card and ram till monday so if anyone is interested (which im sure you're probably yawning at my setup) i can give you some idea as to the increae in performance and games im able to run.

 

[achiles]

Here here, there's no pleasing some people, the article was great! If you get a chance, I would like to see how a p4 3ghz works out in part 2!

Hi Parge,

I'd like to accomodate you but I don't have any P4s around... sorry dude. 🙁

On the bright side, a P4 3.0 should game pretty close to the 2500+ I reviewed, just add 5% or so to those results and you've probably got a pretty good guage.

if you still want a p4 for your reviews I can get you a couple of p4s in 2.6 no ht and a p4 with ht and 1mb I cant pay for shipping though. 🙁

edit: the cpus would be for free you can keep them.

 

[cleeve]

It's obvious there won't be agreement here but I'm not on the defensive just because you chose to over-react.

That's odd. It sure looks like you are from alot of posts I've read here...

But I'm sure you can convince yourself otherwise if you like, you seem to have a gift for doing that.

That, and putting your foot in your mouth.
Funny, you still haven't responded to my rebuttal to your accusation that we at THG ignore the 7600 GS.

I guess it's easier for you to pretend we don't put it in the monthly 'Best Cards for the Money' guide, that way you can keep acting self-righteous and don't have to apologize for your baseless comment, right? 😀

 

[Dade_0182]

Hey Dade_0182, what's the rest of your system specs?

AMD Athlon XP 2500+ Barton @2250 (250*9)
Corsair Value select pc3200 DDR400 @250
Crappy Acer mobo (went cheap, was an emergency)
Thermaltake 300W PSU (also a cheap one from the same emergency)
XFX 7600 GS 512MB
All in a Thermaltake Lanmoto case.

The cpu died recently so I got me a Athlon 64 3500+ AM2 to replace it. All they had in stock that I could afford. This sits on Biostar mobo (don't go there, only AGP one they had in a 10 mile radius). The next test should be very interesting for me then.

My business I started a while ago it picking up though so the upgrades should be getting bigger and better from now on.

@Cleeve I understand your argument about the 7600GT being a much better buy and all but they don't really stock them here by us...at all. Looked everywhere (and I'm a damn resourceful guy if I have to say so myself). Almost all the shops stock the GS and the 7800GS at around US$450!!!!!! Not to even mention the X1950.

 

[paladin13]

As mentioned above, I think that Gainward Bliss 7800GS+ 512mb DDR3 Golden Sample Edition must be included in this benchmark. With amazing overclocking capabilities, 7900GT chipset with full 24 pipelines and DDR3 it trully must be way ahead the normal 7800GS Reference.

A benchmark against the X1950 Pro would be really interesting since 7800GS+ from Gainward is one of the best (if not the best) AGP card.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I wanted one badly, tried to get it but they wouldn't send because of jurisdictional . This was mentioned on page1 of this thread.

Well, if you'd asked (and THG paid for) I had about $400 worth of 'declaration' headroom coming back from Oz, probably could've brought back a review sample.
:twisted:

 

[pilgrim_uk]

NamelessMC

I'm guessing since you have Nforce 3 you probably have socket 754.

It's a 939 board in the thinking that if i upgrade to PCI express i will only lose the mobo and graphics card. Everything else is suitable for an PCI express upgrade. (thats the theory anyway, hell i cant be right all the time.) 😉


Hopefully once the price comes down for suitable 939 hardware i will get an upgrade.

 

[NamelessMC]

NamelessMC

I'm guessing since you have Nforce 3 you probably have socket 754.

It's a 939 board in the thinking that if i upgrade to PCI express i will only lose the mobo and graphics card. Everything else is suitable for an PCI express upgrade. (thats the theory anyway, hell i cant be right all the time.) 😉


Hopefully once the price comes down for suitable 939 hardware i will get an upgrade.

Wait a couple weeks for the E4300 to come out and wait til the 939 decreases come down even more. You should be able to snag a nice motherboard, but like I said, your rig can last until deep into Core 2 Duo territory. You can wait about 3-4 months before you have to upgrade. The X850XT is a great card man! Don't let her go.

You could always sell her though. Those X850XT's go for good bucks on Ebay since they're literally the best $100 card you can get.

 

[cleeve]

As mentioned above, I think that Gainward Bliss 7800GS+ 512mb DDR3 Golden Sample Edition must be included in this benchmark. With amazing overclocking capabilities, 7900GT chipset with full 24 pipelines and DDR3 it trully must be way ahead the normal 7800GS Reference.

Gainward doesn't make the 24 pipeline version of the 7800 GS, at least that's what they told me when I asked their rep for a sample.

The new Gainward 7800 GS+ Golden Sample is a 20-pipeline part, like the 7900 GS.

 

[Barka]

As mentioned above, I think that Gainward Bliss 7800GS+ 512mb DDR3 Golden Sample Edition must be included in this benchmark. With amazing overclocking capabilities, 7900GT chipset with full 24 pipelines and DDR3 it trully must be way ahead the normal 7800GS Reference.

Gainward doesn't make the 24 pipeline version of the 7800 GS, at least that's what they told me when I asked their rep for a sample.

The new Gainward 7800 GS+ Golden Sample is a 20-pipeline part, like the 7900 GS.

 

[cleeve]

Barka, I'm not saying they never made them at 24 pipes.

What I'm saying is that the new 7800 GS+ from Gainward is 20 pipes now, like the 7900 GS.

The Gainward rep told me they are no longer making the 24-pipe version.

 

[potoroo]

It's obvious there won't be agreement here but I'm not on the defensive just because you chose to over-react.

That's odd. It sure looks like you are from alot of posts I've read here...
You're seeing only what you want to see. Your going ballistic doesn't bother me one iota, much less put me on the defensive. That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Funny, you still haven't responded to my rebuttal to your accusation that we at THG ignore the 7600 GS.

I guess it's easier for you to pretend we don't put it in the monthly 'Best Cards for the Money' guide, that way you can keep acting self-righteous and don't have to apologize for your baseless comment, right? 😀

How many times has it appeared in comparos other than the generic AGP Roundup where you test every AGP card you can get your hands on? Somehow there's always an excuse to not include it.

 

[cleeve]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Lol. Head in the sand attitude and everyone else is wrong, huh? Typical troll.

How many times has it appeared in comparos other than the generic AGP Roundup where you test every AGP card you can get your hands on? Somehow there's always an excuse to not include it.

The amount of times it appears in comparos throughout the planet has absolutely no bearing on my article that deals with high-end AGP cards.

But seriously, are you surprised that AGP articles are becoming scarce, with pretty much every new motherboard in the last year coming with PCIe slots? Or is this more conspiracy? If there's a conspiracy, I haven't been invited to any of the 'Let's ignore the 7600 GS' club meetings. :roll:

I noticed that once again you haven't really addressed the fact that we have not ignored the 7600 GS as we have put it in the best cards for the money article for months now.

Somehow, you always manage to ignore that fact. Is it easier to keep your conspiracy theory going that way? Or are you simply the type to never admit your mistakes?

BTW, for the record: I have no 7600 GS here to test. That was at another lab. If you want to send me one, I'll be glad to include it in the next review, just for you. I'll blow away your conspiracy theories in one foul swoop, and get a nice AGP card out of it to boot.

 

[achiles]

^^ were are you located man I may pay for shipping if it aint too much I also found a 3.0p4 ht cpu that I will send but I dont want to pay a lot just for curiosity sake. 8O

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

You're seeing only what you want to see. Your going ballistic doesn't bother me one iota, much less put me on the defensive. That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Talk about pot calling the kettle black. You 'SEE' this as someone intentionally leaving out your pet card in order to acompish something, when really we all know that it's inclusion doesn't change the performance structure, and your pricing argument is lame and more indicative of you living in a back-a$$ward country. The main countries who pruchase tese products (Developed Asia [Taiwan, etc], N.Am., and Western Europe) all have similar ratios of pricing even if Europe has higher prices which also trail N.Am and Asia by a few weeks.
What would you suppose that Cleeve or any reviewer do, phone stores in Djibouti and see if they're carrying the X1950Pro and GF8800GTX and what their current prices are? Get real.

Somehow there's always an excuse to not include it.

Same goes to you, I show how it's a terrible option considering the others out there, and then you have the excuse of 3rd world pricing. :roll:
Must be tough being a martyr for the GF7600GS, no one giving it the respect you think it deserves. You explain why it should be there given the parameters of the review and then see if anyone buys that argument. Because THG is not about reviewing yesterdays hardware because that's all that 3rd world countries have available to them, it's about reviewing what's the latest and greatest at open market prices.
If you want to make things 'relevant' to you who get these products and prices 3 months after the rest of us, then read this review in 3 months time so it's culturally 'relevant' to you. :roll:

 

[cleeve]

Dude, I appreciate your offer and I know your intentions are admirable, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to take your CPU.

If there's enough interest I'll see if I can pitch the P4 angle to the editors though. Or maybe I'll just find a buddy with a fast P4 and do a couple unofficial tests. I'll look around.

 

[slogfilet]

wont get the card and ram till monday so if anyone is interested (which im sure you're probably yawning at my setup) i can give you some idea as to the increae in performance and games im able to run.

Definitely let us know! That's pretty much my setup, and I was planning to go from 512 to 1gig RAM and get a 9800 pro. I'd be very interested in seeing what a difference that makes for you

 

[potoroo]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Lol. Head in the sand attitude and everyone else is wrong, huh? Typical troll.
I didn't say everyone, but you already knew that. You ought to find out what a troll is while you're at it. Free clue: it's not someone making an argument you disagree with.

You can carry on beating your chest and crowing to the crowd all you like about how much you put me on the defensive because you told me to pull my head out of my rear end, etc, but your merely asserting it doesn't make it so. It's just juvenile.

How many times has it appeared in comparos other than the generic AGP Roundup where you test every AGP card you can get your hands on? Somehow there's always an excuse to not include it.

The amount of times it appears in comparos throughout the planet has absolutely no bearing on my article that deals with high-end AGP cards.

It has a distinct bearing on the question you insisted I answer.

I noticed that once again you haven't addressed the fact that we have not ignored the 7600 GS as we have put it in the best cards for the money article for months now.

Somehow, you always manage to ignore that fact. Is it easier to keep your conspiracy theory going that way? Or do you just not like to admit your mistakes?

I just addressed it. You cited it above, albeit out of context, so you can stop pretending I didn't. I focussed earlier on why I thought the 7600GS belonged in an article about "whether or not it's worthwhile it[sic] to stick a new AGP card into an older PC" until you dragged my attention back to the broader point of whether THG generally gives the 7600GS the attention I think it deserves. You think the mere fact it gets a mention in the "best cards for the money" articles is sufficient. I don't, hence my point you cited out of context above. They don't answer the very question people with older systems ask: "how much better will a 7600GS be with my Athlon XP/P4/etc system?" They don't ask about the higher again cards because they take one look at the prices and run away. They have families and mortgages and what have you, and expensive graphics cards are just not on their list of priorities. When the review sites - not just THG, as I said - don't address that sort of question because the higher end but lower selling X1950 Pro is technically more interesting then that leaves a big gap in the knowledge base and that's what frustrates me.

BTW, for the record: I have no 7600 GS here to test. That was at another lab. If you want to send me one, I'll be glad to include it in the next review, just for you.

I don't have one. As I said, I have an XFX overclocked 7800GT. It's the people with older systems I am seeing buying the 7600GS. Lots of them, even in America.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

It's the people with older systems I am seeing buying the 7600GS. Lots of them, even in America.

What you are seeing then is the purchases prior to the new reality where the GF7600GS is no longer a good deal. Anyone living in the US should not be buying a GF7600GS unless someone is selling them for far less than NewEgg, because especially in America there are better options.

Just because idiots are were still buying FX5200s at BestBuy;
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7729041&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat107700050041&id=1140392153993

doesn't mean they should still be included in anyone's tests. There are far better options out there.

 

[that_aznpride101]

yeaaaaaah, i'm not gonna get involved in this argument.

with my system specs, is it typical for me to get 1009 from 3dMark05? anyone have suggestions or solutions?

Yeah, I'm using the 3dMark05 free edition; there aren't any options i can turn on/off since it's just the free edition.
*Update* I just ran 3dMark05 again, I got 1009 now, but still lower than the Radeon 9700 used in the article which got 2506.


Are you running 3dMark05 at the default 1024x768 resolution?

Did you turn on AA or AF in the driver panel perchance?

Okay, after looking at the benchmarks of this article, there's something wrong with my system. I have almost the exact same system, yet my benchmark for 3dmark 05 is not even close to what they have.

My system is very similar to the one tested, I have:
Athlon XP 2500+ Barton OC'ed to 2.1 Ghz
Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe mb
1 gig DDR ram 400
Geforce 6800le AGP (unlocked to 12 pipes)

My graphics card is better than the Radeon 9700 Pro used in the article, so with my overclocked processor & graphics card, I'm at an advantage right?
They get 2,506 with the Radeon 9700 on 3dmark 05and I get 852 with my specs.

What's wrong with my system??

 

[cleeve]

You know, you're not really making any sense as far as I can tell, so here's what I propose... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to explain to everyone what your point is, exactly.

Please straighten me out, I'd really like to understand where you're coming from here. Lets clarify our positions then, potoroo. Let me know where I'm off base:

It's your opinion that Tom's is "ignoring the 7600GS AGP" because we didn't mention it in a single high-end AGP article, correct?
Those are your words, and basically the ones I have a problem with. Are they sufficiently in context to your satisfaction?

On the other hand, we at Tom's, have featured the 7600 GS AGP in at least two 'Best Cards fior the money' articles. I wrote all of these articles.

Now please... I'm trying to understand this, and this is the part I can't make sense of... explain to me why the 7600 GS' omission in a single article about high-end AGP cards is more significant to you than pimping it up in two articles recommending the best AGP you can buy?

How can you reconcile these two pieces of information and at the same time conclude that we are "ignoring the 7600GS AGP"?

I'd really, really like to know the error of my ways. If I'm being biased against a particular card, please let me know how! Either I'm biased against the 7600 GS, or you are biased for it, and honestly... I think my actions prove I'm not biased against it. But if you can prove otherwise I'm all ears.

P.S. For the record, I said your head was in the sand, not up your rear.

 

[achiles]

Dude, I appreciate your offer and I know your intentions are admirable, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to take your CPU.

If there's enough interest I'll see if I can pitch the P4 angle to the editors though. Or maybe I'll just find a buddy with a fast P4 and do a couple unofficial tests. I'll look around.

funny you say that, this things will be pitched anyways, it just that I cant find them a home, nothing wrong with them its just well I work at a big pc corp, and well Its our anual clean up week, processors, mobo, everything working or not 3 years and older goes to the garbage, though I would least let them have a last chance @ glory.

 

[Nightowl42]

DFI LanParty UT nf3 250Gb
2GB PC3200 (512x2, 1024x1)
ATI 9800 Pro

My primary game is World of Warcraft. I purchased, but have not opened, a BFG 7800GS from Frys. I then find out about the X1950 Pro AGP and I'm debating on returning and waiting for a reasonably priced X1950 AGP to show up.

I know WoW performance is not an easy thing to nail down as it can vary based on the number of players logged into an area, latency, etc but I would still like to know if there would be any serious performance gain by moving to the X1950 Pro over keeping the 7800GS. I expect that the X1950 Pro will about $75 more expensive if purchased locally as well as a longer wait.

Also, does anyone have any experience installing either of these cards on my motherboard? I'm concerned about the chipset heatsink being in the way as well as the overall length of the card.

 

[Gimpycow]

Hey fellas:

First post into these forums but a long time reader...

I was searching high and low for this kind of article...great job Cleeze!

The only other thing I would like to see in the article, or in a post to this thread, is a couple benchmarks using Rainbow Six Vegas. This would give us an idea how the x1950Pro agp paired with an older cpu could handle the unreal 3 engine of which there will be a lot of future titles built off of.

I have an XP2700+/1GB DDR (Dual Channel)/6800GS so I am very intrigued to see how a x1950Pro in my old system might handle RS Vegas. I currently play BF2 and Oblivion and the 6800GS is fine for each in my opinion. That being said, I think Vegas would bring the 6800GS to its knees.

I have enough $ saved for a new system but I like to extend my machines as long as possible. If I can play Vegas at 800x600 at HIGH DETAIL with an avg frame rate of 25 or higher, then I think I would upgrade to an x1950Pro in the near future and hope it can take me another 12 - 24 months of decent gaming w/my current rig. The real tests to lasting this long will be Unreal 3 based games and Crysis. I have not seen a single benchmark for Vegas using an older cpu such as a xp2700+ anywhere.

Afterall, the longer I wait, the better pc for a better price I can purchase down the road. My pc is almost 4 years old and my rule of thumb is to wait 5 years before upgrading. If I can wait another 12 - 24 months, the bugs will be worked out of Vista and quad core will be on the cheap.

Thoughts to my logic?

If you could get me that Vegas benchy with ye ole xp2500+ cpu that would be MOST APPRECIATED!

Gimpycow