AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[blackkstar]

Why is something talking about GCC CFLAGS in a discussion about ICC?

As for finding if a program is compiled with ICC:

1. Download a hex editor
2. search "GenuineIntel"

If found, good job it's ICC or at least optimized for different code paths.

It's really not very difficult. I would have thought that with everyone talking so confidently they could have at least figured that out.

If that's over your "expert" level of computers there are programs you can download that search for the appropriate bytes and also PATCH the program.

If you want a spoiler I've found:

Borderlands 2 ICC
Cinebench R11.5 ICC

Rumors of ICC or bad code paths:

LAME
Tons of MP3 transcoding software

Obviously optimized:

iTunes: Apple wrote the software and it's only designed for their hardware and ecosystem (hence why it blows so hard on Windows and it is good on OSX) which only has Intel CPUs. Do you think Apple cares at all about how well iTunes runes on Windows machines with AMD CPUs????? Seriously?

But it really just emphasizes AMD's problem. They could make a faster CPU than Intel, and if the code won't run on the right paths, it's not going to be faster.

 

[gamerk316]

Why is something talking about GCC CFLAGS in a discussion about ICC?

As for finding if a program is compiled with ICC:

1. Download a hex editor
2. search "GenuineIntel"

If found, good job it's ICC or at least optimized for different code paths.

It's really not very difficult. I would have thought that with everyone talking so confidently they could have at least figured that out.

If that's over your "expert" level of computers there are programs you can download that search for the appropriate bytes and also PATCH the program.

If you want a spoiler I've found:

Borderlands 2 ICC
Cinebench R11.5 ICC

Rumors of ICC or bad code paths:

LAME
Tons of MP3 transcoding software

Obviously optimized:

iTunes: Apple wrote the software and it's only designed for their hardware and ecosystem (hence why it blows so hard on Windows and it is good on OSX) which only has Intel CPUs. Do you think Apple cares at all about how well iTunes runes on Windows machines with AMD CPUs????? Seriously?

But it really just emphasizes AMD's problem. They could make a faster CPU than Intel, and if the code won't run on the right paths, it's not going to be faster.

We settled this debate pages ago: ICC compiles faster for AMD, with no optimizations, then MSVC or GCC does with maximum optimizations.

Its Intels compiler; it still compiles faster for AMD then any other compiler on the planet, but Intel does not have to treat AMD the same. Its their product after all.

Secondly, as has been pointed out many times over: Very, very, very, very few people use ICC. Maybe 1% of the market. Maybe.

 

[gamerk316]

An in regards to AMDs financials: Despite the drop in losses (expected), there is another major story here: Despite the revenue "only" dropping 100 Million Dollars this quarter, profits declined even faster. Possible problem with their margins, prehaps?

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/18/amd-posts-strong-q1-2013-revenue-of-1-09-billion-but-struggles-at-profit-with-0-19-loss-per-share/

AMD is a company in painful decline. Its revenue in the fourth quarter of 2011 clocked in at $1.7 billion. It has declined in every following quarter, slipping to $1.6 billion, to $1.5 billion, to $1.4 billion, to $1.3 billion, to $1.2 billion to today’s revenue figure of $1.1 billion.

Note the $100 Million trend, even as AMD cuts expenses? Not a promising sign at all.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Noticed that for Intel to, I think it was 700 million off hand for the quarter
Being Intels marketshare vs AMD, its about right

 

[-Fran-]

I think Intel should be a thousand times more worried than AMD in this "PC no longer selling" downward spiral.

They sell and depend (to some extent) to the every day Joe who buys cheap computers and where Intel has put all it's marketing campaigns over the years. Just like Apple has. If they move towards Tablets, Smartphones and going smaller, then they should worry. AMD, even though is still in that same problem, they don't have near to Intel's marketing investment in that market. I'd say AMD's market is a little bit more educated than that. Regular folks probably still think AMD doens't exist or don't even know what kind of company is

Cheers!

 

[Cazalan]

An in regards to AMDs financials: Despite the drop in losses (expected), there is another major story here: Despite the revenue "only" dropping 100 Million Dollars this quarter, profits declined even faster. Possible problem with their margins, prehaps?

They avoided answering any of the follow up questions on margins. The only thing they would say is it's expected to be flat. More products in the low cost sector typically means lower margins. It would have to be offset by higher margins in GPU/Server segments.

Kabini shipping was good news, and reaffirmation of Kaveri for 2H.

When I go into Walmart I see all these AMD E-350 systems for $299 price point. I can't really recommend them as I know that's a bit of a dog. Replace that with Kabini at the same price point and the story changes. It should be a respectable system for the price.

 

[Cazalan]

I think Intel should be a thousand times more worried than AMD in this "PC no longer selling" downward spiral.

They are worried and their entire roadmap has been adjusted for it. I wouldn't worry about Intel though. Even with a down market they're able to pay billions in dividends per quarter.

 

[-Fran-]

I think Intel should be a thousand times more worried than AMD in this "PC no longer selling" downward spiral.

They are worried and their entire roadmap has been adjusted for it. I wouldn't worry about Intel though. Even with a down market they're able to pay billions in dividends per quarter.

Oh yes, indeed. They still have a very big surplus of cash and taken action for a few years now. I wonder what will happen next year, since it seems like the smartphone frenzy has stabilized a bit.

Anyway, in AMD good news: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6907/the-king-is-back-raja-koduri-leaves-apple-returns-to-amd

Maybe he got bored at Apple now that Jobs isn't there, haha.

Cheers!

 

[8350rocks]

I think Intel should be a thousand times more worried than AMD in this "PC no longer selling" downward spiral.

They are worried and their entire roadmap has been adjusted for it. I wouldn't worry about Intel though. Even with a down market they're able to pay billions in dividends per quarter.

Oh yes, indeed. They still have a very big surplus of cash and taken action for a few years now. I wonder what will happen next year, since it seems like the smartphone frenzy has stabilized a bit.

Anyway, in AMD good news: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6907/the-king-is-back-raja-koduri-leaves-apple-returns-to-amd

Maybe he got bored at Apple now that Jobs isn't there, haha.

Cheers!

That is amazing news...I would be willing to bet within 6 months the Catalyst drivers are a double improvement in consistency and performance for the AMD GPUs (in crossfire, particularly)...hardware, clearly, will take a bit longer...but this is great news.

 

[Cazalan]

Oh yes, indeed. They still have a very big surplus of cash and taken action for a few years now. I wonder what will happen next year, since it seems like the smartphone frenzy has stabilized a bit.

This may be a bit too optimistic but as the phablet fever dies some of that could shift back into PC sector. It's amazing how much the cost of AIO computers have come down to. $350-400 for a 20".

 

[8350rocks]

Why is something talking about GCC CFLAGS in a discussion about ICC?

As for finding if a program is compiled with ICC:

1. Download a hex editor
2. search "GenuineIntel"

If found, good job it's ICC or at least optimized for different code paths.

It's really not very difficult. I would have thought that with everyone talking so confidently they could have at least figured that out.

If that's over your "expert" level of computers there are programs you can download that search for the appropriate bytes and also PATCH the program.

If you want a spoiler I've found:

Borderlands 2 ICC
Cinebench R11.5 ICC

Rumors of ICC or bad code paths:

LAME
Tons of MP3 transcoding software

Obviously optimized:

iTunes: Apple wrote the software and it's only designed for their hardware and ecosystem (hence why it blows so hard on Windows and it is good on OSX) which only has Intel CPUs. Do you think Apple cares at all about how well iTunes runes on Windows machines with AMD CPUs????? Seriously?

But it really just emphasizes AMD's problem. They could make a faster CPU than Intel, and if the code won't run on the right paths, it's not going to be faster.

We settled this debate pages ago: ICC compiles faster for AMD, with no optimizations, then MSVC or GCC does with maximum optimizations.

Its Intels compiler; it still compiles faster for AMD then any other compiler on the planet, but Intel does not have to treat AMD the same. Its their product after all.

Secondly, as has been pointed out many times over: Very, very, very, very few people use ICC. Maybe 1% of the market. Maybe.

Actually AMD does support it's own compiler...I have been researching...trying to discover why they haven't done this yet. It turns out they have:

AMD supports the open64 compiler with yearly updates for optimization (opensource). They do this so that not only windows, but also Sun, Linux, and other companies developing software, have a universal x86-64 compiler to use. So, while in the windows world it doesn't have a high penetration...this explains why ubuntu and sun operating systems run so much more efficiently on AMD...it's the equivalent of Intel's ICC advantage.

This makes tremendous sense. AMD doesn't typically support proprietary only functions like Intel and MS...so, them providing a compiler that anyone can use totally fits the bill for them. Support the average Joe and the innovative low funding projects out there that could make a difference for the "big boys" in hardware and software.

Just like their Open Source server project that just started shipping. They donated one to the University of Texas at San Antonio recently(as a joint case study as well), and it has shown to be...so far...the most efficient and powerful server solution on the planet. Boasting high performance and very low power consumption and using SeaMicro freedom fabric technology and Opteron CPU solutions to make it extremely modular. Rackspace (the world's largest cloud server solution provider) has already placed an order for quite a few of these to use for their customer solutions and corporate systems.

Interesting...indeed.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

My brief observations on the compiler issue is, Intel gains 7% or so if all parties are using it.

 

[jdwii]

They still lost ~$150 Million, on track for a ~$600 Million loss for the year. And also remember that ~$160 Million sale of their campus in Austin? Factor that into the numbers and you get a ~$300 Million loss for the quarter based sorely on AMD products line.

So yeah, call me when AMD starts making actual money,

I forgot all about that, remember Intel is 63 times smaller than Intel

 

[-Fran-]

They still lost ~$150 Million, on track for a ~$600 Million loss for the year. And also remember that ~$160 Million sale of their campus in Austin? Factor that into the numbers and you get a ~$300 Million loss for the quarter based sorely on AMD products line.

So yeah, call me when AMD starts making actual money,

I forgot all about that, remember Intel is 63 times smaller than Intel

I think you're wrong, my friend. I'm pretty sure Intel is 63 times *bigger* than Intel. Yes, that's it.

Cheers!

 

[juanrga]

We settled this debate pages ago: ICC compiles faster for AMD, with no optimizations, then MSVC or GCC does with maximum optimizations.

Its Intels compiler; it still compiles faster for AMD then any other compiler on the planet, but Intel does not have to treat AMD the same. Its their product after all.

Secondly, as has been pointed out many times over: Very, very, very, very few people use ICC. Maybe 1% of the market. Maybe.

For AMD chips optimal code goes as GCC > AMD compiler > ICC > MSVC

ICC is used in popular Windows benchmarks, which are used to say potential buyers how 'superior' Intel chips are... Linux benchmarks (which do not use ICC) say otherwise.

 

[juanrga]

I think you would be interested that AMD already introduced support for Steamroller on compilers via the new "bdver3" target.

 

[juanrga]

AMD supports the open64 compiler with yearly updates for optimization (opensource). They do this so that not only windows, but also Sun, Linux, and other companies developing software, have a universal x86-64 compiler to use. So, while in the windows world it doesn't have a high penetration...this explains why ubuntu and sun operating systems run so much more efficiently on AMD...it's the equivalent of Intel's ICC advantage.

All of Ubuntu, from the kernel to Xorg to Unity to Firefox, all of it is compiled with GCC compiler, not with AMD Open64 compiler.

 

[jdwii]

They still lost ~$150 Million, on track for a ~$600 Million loss for the year. And also remember that ~$160 Million sale of their campus in Austin? Factor that into the numbers and you get a ~$300 Million loss for the quarter based sorely on AMD products line.

So yeah, call me when AMD starts making actual money,

I forgot all about that, remember Intel is 63 times smaller than Intel

I think you're wrong, my friend. I'm pretty sure Intel is 63 times *bigger* than Intel. Yes, that's it.

Cheers!

Not even going to correct it i stand by what i said :lol:

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Its better than the real thing?

 

[8350rocks]

AMD supports the open64 compiler with yearly updates for optimization (opensource). They do this so that not only windows, but also Sun, Linux, and other companies developing software, have a universal x86-64 compiler to use. So, while in the windows world it doesn't have a high penetration...this explains why ubuntu and sun operating systems run so much more efficiently on AMD...it's the equivalent of Intel's ICC advantage.

All of Ubuntu, from the kernel to Xorg to Unity to Firefox, all of it is compiled with GCC compiler, not with AMD Open64 compiler.

AMD open64 is an optimized version of GCC...it is a "complimentary optimized update" So, while AMD open64 = GCC, GCC does not necessarily = AMD open64

 

[palladin9479]

There may be a all-in-one ITX system coming based on the exact same specs seen in console, but for desktop trim. Sapphire have already prototype the board with what looks to be like a lot of DDR5 solder points and passive cooling. AMD did say they would consider a PC based prototype. This could be a massive money spinner but for the stumbling point on price.

We sell a lot of Prodigy based systems. Our affiliation with ASRock means we get good rates on the new FM2A85X ITX board and this really magnifies the APU's true value, together with 7 SATA ports this is a very compious HTPC/Media centre or console like setup. I just don't like the Prodigy all that much for its excessive footprint which is bigger than a lot of MATX cases.

Hey those E350's are sweet for Kiosk / AIO type configurations. They have just enough juice to do 99% of the tasks that most consumers do while sipping little power. Beauty is achieved when form = function. Not everything needs to play game X at 1080P resolution. Most are just facebook / email / homework boxes where cost and size are the #1 determiner of value. Here in East Asia real estate is at a premium, a 1500 sq feet apartment costs about $1,500 USD a month in rent (Daegu price). In Seoul it's MUCH higher.

 

[mayankleoboy1]

Actually AMD does support it's own compiler...I have been researching...trying to discover why they haven't done this yet. It turns out they have:

AMD supports the open64 compiler with yearly updates for optimization (opensource). They do this so that not

Spoiler

only windows, but also Sun, Linux, and other companies developing software, have a universal x86-64 compiler to use. So, while in the windows world it doesn't have a high penetration...this explains why ubuntu and sun operating systems run so much more efficiently on AMD...it's the equivalent of Intel's ICC advantage.

This makes tremendous sense. ...so, them providing a compiler that anyone can use totally fits the bill for them. Support the average Joe and the innovative low funding projects out there that could make a difference for the "big boys" in hardware and software.

Just like their Open Source server project that just started shipping. They donated one to the University of Texas at San Antonio recently(as a joint case study as well), and it has shown to be...so far...the most efficient and powerful server solution on the planet. Boasting high performance and very low power consumption and using SeaMicro freedom fabric technology and Opteron CPU solutions to make it extremely modular. Rackspace (the world's largest cloud server solution provider) has already placed an order for quite a few of these to use for their customer solutions and corporate systems.

Interesting...indeed.

Some facts :

1. AMD's Open64 compiler was initially derived from the ICC.
2. AMD's open64 produced worse code than GCC 4.6 .
3. GCC 4.6 is lot worse than GCC 4.7 and 4.8.
4. Hence open64 produced inferior code than a previous generation compiler.

AFAIK, Open64 is not supported on windows. I may be wrong, need to confirm.
at this stage, intel adds much more code to gcc than amd.

AMD doesn't typically support proprietary only functions like Intel and MS

What does this mean ?
***************************************

Intel provides hand optimized AVX , multithreaded librarys for math operations : http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM1NDQ

 

[tianlong]

I do hope AMD Pull a rabbit out of there hat with this revision of the architectural silicone

 

[8350rocks]

Actually AMD does support it's own compiler...I have been researching...trying to discover why they haven't done this yet. It turns out they have:

AMD supports the open64 compiler with yearly updates for optimization (opensource). They do this so that not

Spoiler

only windows, but also Sun, Linux, and other companies developing software, have a universal x86-64 compiler to use. So, while in the windows world it doesn't have a high penetration...this explains why ubuntu and sun operating systems run so much more efficiently on AMD...it's the equivalent of Intel's ICC advantage.

This makes tremendous sense. ...so, them providing a compiler that anyone can use totally fits the bill for them. Support the average Joe and the innovative low funding projects out there that could make a difference for the "big boys" in hardware and software.

Just like their Open Source server project that just started shipping. They donated one to the University of Texas at San Antonio recently(as a joint case study as well), and it has shown to be...so far...the most efficient and powerful server solution on the planet. Boasting high performance and very low power consumption and using SeaMicro freedom fabric technology and Opteron CPU solutions to make it extremely modular. Rackspace (the world's largest cloud server solution provider) has already placed an order for quite a few of these to use for their customer solutions and corporate systems.

Interesting...indeed.

Some facts :

1. AMD's Open64 compiler was initially derived from the ICC.
2. AMD's open64 produced worse code than GCC 4.6 .
3. GCC 4.6 is lot worse than GCC 4.7 and 4.8.
4. Hence open64 produced inferior code than a previous generation compiler.

AFAIK, Open64 is not supported on windows. I may be wrong, need to confirm.
at this stage, intel adds much more code to gcc than amd.

AMD doesn't typically support proprietary only functions like Intel and MS

What does this mean ?
***************************************

Intel provides hand optimized AVX , multithreaded librarys for math operations : http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM1NDQ

Actually, it is derived from the SGI compiler for Itanium x86 architecture, and intel has never directly contributed to the compiler. When Itanium failed, the University of Delaware renamed it open64 and made it open source. It can compile for FORTRAN/C/C++

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open64

Its major components are the frontend for C/C++ (using GCC) and Fortran 77/90 (using the CraySoft front-end and libraries), Interprocedural analysis (IPA), loop nest optimizer (LNO), global optimizer (WOPT), and code generator (CG). Despite being initially written for a single computer architecture, Open64 has proven that it can generate efficient code for CISC, RISC, and VLIW architectures, including MIPS, x86, IA-64, ARM, and others.

If ICC is so much faster...then why does AMD run ubuntu linux and it's affiliated software about 1.25-1.5x faster than intel?

The answer? open64.

AMD is also not the only contributor:

Open64 is also used in a number of research projects, such as the Unified Parallel C (UPC) and speculative multithreading work at various universities. The 2010 Open64 Developers Forum describes projects done at Absoft, AMD, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Fudan University, HP, National Tsing Hua University, Nvidia, Tensilica, Tsinghua University, and University of Houston.[2] The Chinese Academy of Sciences ported Open64 to the Loongson II platform.[3]

AMD has extended and productized Open64 with optimizations designed for x86 multi-core processor advancements and multi-threaded code development.[4] AMD supports Open64 as a complementary compiler to GCC.[5]

I think I also now understand why Nvidia cards can actually outperform AMD cards with AMD CPUs in some instances...

Nvidia is also using an Open64 fork to optimize code in its CUDA toolchain.

Which explains why they work better with AMD compared to intel.

Also...here's some background:

Open64 exists in many forks, each of which has different features and limitations. The "classic" Open64 branch is the Open Research Compiler (ORC), which produces code only for the Itanium (IA-64), and was funded by Intel. The ORC effort ended in 2003. Other important branches include the compilers from Tensilica. The current official branch is managed by Hewlett Packard and the University of Delaware. This effort originated from the Intel ORC project. AMD supports an x86 Open64 Compiler Suite based on the official branch.

So, while intel originated the funding for the ORC project, they have not otherwise contributed to it in over 10 years.

 

[mayankleoboy1]

^ you got some benchmarks to show Open64 is better than ICC/GCC ?

If ICC is so much faster...then why does AMD run ubuntu linux and it's affiliated software about 1.25-1.5x faster than intel?

Source ?


My source of Open64 VS GCC comparison is from several Phoronix articles in 2011/2010 . In those benchies, Open64 pretty much performed poorly on both AMD and Intel hardware , compared to GCC. IIRC, the tests were done on the Bulldozer hardware. Which means, GCC produced faster code than the Open64 compiler.

After that interest in Open64 pretty much vanished, as far as major news is concerned. If it has progressed, it hasnt made any news or major announcement.

BTW, i am not overly concerned with the beginnings of Open64. I am mostly concerned with how much it is in use, and how much better code does it generate.

Quote:
Nvidia is also using an Open64 fork to optimize code in its CUDA toolchain.

Which explains why they work better with AMD compared to intel.

That quote is from a 2010 link.

Go to the present : https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-llvm-compiler and http://www.anandtech.com/show/5238/nvidia-releases-cuda-41-cuda-goes-llvm-and-open-source-kind-of

NVIDIA's CUDA Compiler (NVCC) is based on the widely used LLVM open source compiler infrastructure.

(it would help if you researched beyond wikipedia.)