AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[8350rocks]

You're not making sense. If Sony wanted more cores for the OS they would have contracted AMD to make a 10 core APU. You took the comment "100% dedicated to games only" too literally.

Actually, from the link before:

There's also another custom chip, in addition to the 8 core APU, to put the system in a low-power mode for background downloads. "To make it a more green hardware, which is very important for us, we have the ability to turn off the main power in the system and just have power to that secondary custom chip, system memory, and I/O -- hard drive, Ethernet. So that allows background downloads to happen in a very low power scenario. We also have the ability to shut off everything except power to the RAMs, which is how we leave your game session suspended."

That is the same chip that runs the background processes...

I am telling you, Sony has stated flatly that all 8 cores are for gaming...no OS or background processes.

I think you're trying to read too much into it.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

The PS4 will have a 8-Core 4 module APU based on PD (Jaguar), from what we know 1.8GHz is the clock speed, so it should have a decent IPC in order to keep up with today's PCs. The main thing I am keen about is the fact that the console ports will likely be optimized for "those 6.4 core CPUs", giving the edge to AMD. I'm not saying the 4670K will be toast, chances are it will hold more than its own for the next few generations, but I would expect the FX PD and SR line to be heavily optimized by Jaguar and overtake Intel on the gaming front.

 

[griptwister]

I want to purchase a FX 4350 just for kicks n' giggles. It'd be a decent upgrade from my 840. Haha! Unfortunately for AMD, I'm not made out of money $130 is kind of on the steep side considering microcenter sells the FX 8320 for $150. And, If I want to upgrade now, I'll have to wait for Excavator for my next purchase... probably.

I thought that the PS4 cores are dedicated to Gaming and the GPU on the APU are dedicated to doing everything else when in a gaming environment...

 

[Cazalan]

The PS4 will have a 8-Core 4 module APU based on PD (Jaguar), from what we know 1.8GHz is the clock speed, so it should have a decent IPC in order to keep up with today's PCs. The main thing I am keen about is the fact that the console ports will likely be optimized for "those 6.4 core CPUs", giving the edge to AMD. I'm not saying the 4670K will be toast, chances are it will hold more than its own for the next few generations, but I would expect the FX PD and SR line to be heavily optimized by Jaguar and overtake Intel on the gaming front.

Jaguar is quite different from PD. These are different architectures. Jaguar is derived from AMDs more traditional K10 family where PD is the "new" Bulldozer module refined.

 

[lilcinw]

I want to purchase a FX 4350 just for kicks n' giggles. It'd be a decent upgrade from my 840. Haha! Unfortunately for AMD, I'm not made out of money $130 is kind of on the steep side considering microcenter sells the FX 8320 for $150. And, If I want to upgrade now, I'll have to wait for Excavator for my next purchase... probably.

I thought that the PS4 cores are dedicated to Gaming and the GPU on the APU are dedicated to doing everything else when in a gaming environment...

I have a used 4100 I could sell you. It ran reliably undervolted at 3.9.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

The PS4 will have a 8-Core 4 module APU based on PD (Jaguar), from what we know 1.8GHz is the clock speed, so it should have a decent IPC in order to keep up with today's PCs. The main thing I am keen about is the fact that the console ports will likely be optimized for "those 6.4 core CPUs", giving the edge to AMD. I'm not saying the 4670K will be toast, chances are it will hold more than its own for the next few generations, but I would expect the FX PD and SR line to be heavily optimized by Jaguar and overtake Intel on the gaming front.

Jaguar is quite different from PD. These are different architectures. Jaguar is derived from AMDs more traditional K10 family where PD is the "new" Bulldozer module refined.

Jaguar is derived from AMDs more traditional K10 family where PD is the "new" Bulldozer module.
Hmm, I always thought Jaguar was module based, thanks anyways.

 

[Cazalan]

You're not making sense. If Sony wanted more cores for the OS they would have contracted AMD to make a 10 core APU. You took the comment "100% dedicated to games only" too literally.

Actually, from the link before:

There's also another custom chip, in addition to the 8 core APU, to put the system in a low-power mode for background downloads. "To make it a more green hardware, which is very important for us, we have the ability to turn off the main power in the system and just have power to that secondary custom chip, system memory, and I/O -- hard drive, Ethernet. So that allows background downloads to happen in a very low power scenario. We also have the ability to shut off everything except power to the RAMs, which is how we leave your game session suspended."

That is the same chip that runs the background processes...

I am telling you, Sony has stated flatly that all 8 cores are for gaming...no OS or background processes.

I think you're trying to read too much into it.

They have a low power microprocessor for standby modes. That's good. Where does it say it's handling all the OS tasks in full power mode?

That chip is probably running it's own OS with a tiny ARM core. Like the System management chips you'll find on Server motherboards with KVM capabilities. They have their own internal Flash and RAM for the OS.

 

[blackkstar]

"Moar cores" is already here... in next gen consoles, with game developers do not recommending four-core i5 chips if you want to play next gen games

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-future-proofing-your-pc-for-next-gen

We've had consoles with lots of cores for a LONG time now, remember?

Xbox 360: Tri-core with 2-way SMT (2 threads per core = 6 threads total)
PS3: 6 functional PPE for developer use (seventh reserved for the OS, eighth fused off due to low yields)

So the hardware added two more cores. I suspect one will be reserved for the OS in both the Infinities and PS4's case, leaving 7 (one more then current consoles). In the Infinities case, you also have the Kinnect, which may eat up a core all by itself, bringing you to six (same as the 360).

Odds are, you'll see some scaling due to more advanced features due to more powerful consoles (better physics, etc) which make their way into PC ports, but I'm not expecting anything magical.

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=424226

Do you think that is coincidence?

I think that games that have been PC optimized in the past (Blizzard games) focus on one core while the poorly done console ports actually use 3 cores instead of the 4 everyone assumes it to be using.

If games were not as threaded as you think there would not be such a start contrast between Pentium G IB without HT and i3 IB with HT.

PS3 having 6 cores is irrelevant. A game would be designed around the lowest common denominator. Notice how 360 would get a game, the PS3 would get a slight better one, and the Wii was so behind that most of the time it didn't get ports?

You can't take a game designed for 6 cores and cut it back to 3. You have to design around the lowest common denominator.

Hence why AMD fought for 8 cores in 720 and 8 cores in PS4. Now 8 cores will happen and Wii U will be left outside again not getting mainstream ports that PS4 and 720 get, because it doesn't have the CPU to keep up.

 

[Cazalan]

Temash in Cinebench

 

[8350rocks]

Temash in Cinebench

It really obliterates the (faster clock rated) Atom, and hangs with the i3's, even the one that is significantly faster. I expect it will make a pretty big splash in those markets.

 

[Cazalan]

It really obliterates the (faster clock rated) Atom, and hangs with the i3's, even the one that is significantly faster. I expect it will make a pretty big splash in those markets.

They should go unchallenged until Intel's 22nm Atoms come out (end of year). AMD needs to ship as many as they can while this window exists. Then it's a matter of the TSMC process if they can crank the clocks higher without increasing the TDP.

 

[esrever]

It really obliterates the (faster clock rated) Atom, and hangs with the i3's, even the one that is significantly faster. I expect it will make a pretty big splash in those markets.

They should go unchallenged until Intel's 22nm Atoms come out (end of year). AMD needs to ship as many as they can while this window exists. Then it's a matter of the TSMC process if they can crank the clocks higher without increasing the TDP.

the new atoms are still going to be pretty bad compared to tamesh if you was to drive HD resolutions. Intel will probably win on power consumption, maybe getting it down near ARM levels but I doubt the gpu performance will be there.

 

[jdwii]

It really obliterates the (faster clock rated) Atom, and hangs with the i3's, even the one that is significantly faster. I expect it will make a pretty big splash in those markets.

They should go unchallenged until Intel's 22nm Atoms come out (end of year). AMD needs to ship as many as they can while this window exists. Then it's a matter of the TSMC process if they can crank the clocks higher without increasing the TDP.

Unless their Atom beats their current I3 in that table i don't see it mattering much plus the atom has a bad name

 

[Cazalan]

the new atoms are still going to be pretty bad compared to tamesh if you was to drive HD resolutions. Intel will probably win on power consumption, maybe getting it down near ARM levels but I doubt the gpu performance will be there.

Remember these are very low power parts. The GPU in the Temash is like 1/9th the power of what's in the A10-5800K. 128 shaders @ 300Mhz compared to 384 shaders @ 800Mhz.

And the Atom's are getting Ivy bridge graphics but probably closer to HD2500 performance.

Both really low end graphics.

 

[esrever]

the new atoms are still going to be pretty bad compared to tamesh if you was to drive HD resolutions. Intel will probably win on power consumption, maybe getting it down near ARM levels but I doubt the gpu performance will be there.

Remember these are very low power parts. The GPU in the Temash is like 1/9th the power of what's in the A10-5800K. 128 shaders @ 300Mhz compared to 384 shaders @ 800Mhz.

And the Atom's are getting Ivy bridge graphics but probably closer to HD2500 performance.

Both really low end graphics.

Im expecting it to be below hd2000 still.

 

[gamerk316]

That quote is from a post from mine!!!

Maybe I'm killing the wrong quotemsg when I'm editing the quote? The new quote system STINKS.

The PS3 had a single general-purpose core (PPE) which handle most of the computational workload. This core controlled seven coprocessors (SPE) that assisted it for accelerating 3D and multimedia tasks.

The PS4 has eight general-purpose cores (AMD_64) which can be assisted by the 18 compute units (GCN) via the new HSA technology.

Gah, I flipped the SPE/PPE again. Meat of the post is correct though: 1 PPE, 6 SPE's for DEVELOPER use (7th reserved for OS, 8th disabled)

 

[gamerk316]

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=424226

Do you think that is coincidence?

I think that games that have been PC optimized in the past (Blizzard games) focus on one core while the poorly done console ports actually use 3 cores instead of the 4 everyone assumes it to be using.

If games were not as threaded as you think there would not be such a start contrast between Pentium G IB without HT and i3 IB with HT.

PS3 having 6 cores is irrelevant. A game would be designed around the lowest common denominator. Notice how 360 would get a game, the PS3 would get a slight better one, and the Wii was so behind that most of the time it didn't get ports?

You can't take a game designed for 6 cores and cut it back to 3. You have to design around the lowest common denominator.

Hence why AMD fought for 8 cores in 720 and 8 cores in PS4. Now 8 cores will happen and Wii U will be left outside again not getting mainstream ports that PS4 and 720 get, because it doesn't have the CPU to keep up.

I disagree. Again, in all the years I have coded, I've NEVER done anything in regards to core assignment. Its the job of the OS, not the developer. Threads will assign to whatever core is not doing work. Make enough PARALLEL threads, and the program should scale without issue.

Raw CPU power, not number of cores, drives whether or not you can port downward. And lets face it, the Wiis 800MHz PPC 780LE variant was ancient.

 

[juanrga]

That quote is from a post from mine!!!

Maybe I'm killing the wrong quotemsg when I'm editing the quote? The new quote system STINKS.

I don't know what you or the server are doing, but again a quote from mine is being attributed to another poster. Now to 8350rocks!!!

 

[8350rocks]

They have a low power microprocessor for standby modes. That's good. Where does it say it's handling all the OS tasks in full power mode?

That chip is probably running it's own OS with a tiny ARM core. Like the System management chips you'll find on Server motherboards with KVM capabilities. They have their own internal Flash and RAM for the OS.

The console also includes a secondary custom chip which handles tasks associated with downloading, uploading, and social gameplay.[19][20] These tasks can be handled seamlessly in the background during gameplay or while the system is in sleep mode.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4

 

[Ranth]

This might not be that important but I find it quite interesting, AMD's stock is just up and about ~3
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AMD&t=1d&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

 

[truegenius]

i don't know about stocks but it looks like that amd stocks up by 15% in just few hours

 

[Cazalan]

This might not be that important but I find it quite interesting, AMD's stock is just up and about ~3
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AMD&t=1d&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

When the bleeding stops the investors come back.

Sony talking about being profitable for the first time since 2008 probably has helped. PS4 talk is everywhere and AMD is a huge part of that console.

Big names like HP/Acer/Lenovo have also leaked design wins for Temash/Kabini.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Bottoming out has happened in a poor business climate, while restructuring and changing goals.
Now things are looking up?
I think the bad news already hit AMD, its others who will now face the knife

 

[jdwii]

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=424226

Do you think that is coincidence?

I think that games that have been PC optimized in the past (Blizzard games) focus on one core while the poorly done console ports actually use 3 cores instead of the 4 everyone assumes it to be using.

If games were not as threaded as you think there would not be such a start contrast between Pentium G IB without HT and i3 IB with HT.

PS3 having 6 cores is irrelevant. A game would be designed around the lowest common denominator. Notice how 360 would get a game, the PS3 would get a slight better one, and the Wii was so behind that most of the time it didn't get ports?

You can't take a game designed for 6 cores and cut it back to 3. You have to design around the lowest common denominator.

Hence why AMD fought for 8 cores in 720 and 8 cores in PS4. Now 8 cores will happen and Wii U will be left outside again not getting mainstream ports that PS4 and 720 get, because it doesn't have the CPU to keep up.

I disagree. Again, in all the years I have coded, I've NEVER done anything in regards to core assignment. Its the job of the OS, not the developer. Threads will assign to whatever core is not doing work. Make enough PARALLEL threads, and the program should scale without issue.

Raw CPU power, not number of cores, drives whether or not you can port downward. And lets face it, the Wiis 800MHz PPC 780LE variant was ancient.

Thank you someone understands, people need to learn that you assign another thread when programming you don't lock it to the number of cores and the OS handles the Thread scheduling. I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand but its important and i hope if they are programmers they don't do it.

 

[Cazalan]

Thank you someone understands, people need to learn that you assign another thread when programming you don't lock it to the number of cores and the OS handles the Thread scheduling. I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand but its important and i hope if they are programmers they don't do it.

As a general rule for sure, but on console they may resort to some manual tuning to get the best performance.

One thing Microsoft doesn't seem to handle too well is turbo modes. Maybe Windows 8 is better but I definitely have tuned some apps to run on 2 cores only so that it can keep those 2 cores in turbo rather than bouncing around 8 cores and watching the turbos go up/down.

I sure hope Microsoft addresses this better in upcoming releases as I think the clock gap between base/turbo is going to continue to rise as the fight for minimal TDP continues. Some i7 chips have a 1.2Ghz difference between base/turbo.