+1, and Haswell has 7W more TDP now, so no dice for the power consumption excuse.
The added TDP is from the integration of power circuitry. Haswell has lower idle but higher load power - attributed to the various Haswell improvements.
Given how much weighting I give to idle power consumption, I believe I'll be one of the few Haswell advocates. xD
Those idle figures are the lowest of the entire web. I would wait to see more reviews.
Even if AM3+ is the socket they need a new chipset, they are very far behind in that front and AM3+ as it is now is not a good platform.
Wasting money on flogging AM3+, I really don't understand this decision at all.
On Steamroller architecture, tightening up cache latencies, lowering branch mispredicts, improvements to IMC should see fair enough gains. If I was to be a betting man I think the requisite parts will be maybe 3-5% slower than SB/IB (FX8~i7/i5 and FX6 and FX4 should sit in between a i3 and i5 or match the mainsteam i5's) Where this puts them after Haswell maybe around 7-10% slower.
Kaveri APU's should be quite impressive though.
the force seems strong with you. i'll ask you this: why/how are the 8-core AMD's, with a clock speed faster than intel's, slower than the lowest i5.
GOM3RPLY3R :
jdwii :
GOM3RPLY3R :
I just want to say: Why is this such a huge thread?
Simple answer: Ranting about off topic things.
I'll sum up for everyone what they are complaining about:
In a performance aspect with prices out of the question, Nvidia and Intel are dominating the market.
With Prices in hand, they are about hand in hand, as wholes.
In conclusion, if you are on a tighter budget or want to use OpenCL, Bit Mine, or Video Edit, then hit up the AMD market.
If you have the money and you want kick-ass gaming for the performance, go for Intel and/or Nvidia.
Enough Said.
UPDATE: By the way, I encountered a problem with an AMD fan on a GAMING topic and he brought up Operating Systems and how AMD works better with these, his main point was Linux. Keep in mind, most of the World Population isn't a hardware geek and/or an intense gamer, so really the focus will be mostly Windows. Also that Linux is terrible with games.
^ Probably doesn't know that the Radeon 8000HD series hasn't came out yet to defeat his beloved titan. But hey if most people use it, it must be better yet just like Windows and Capitalization,
Also check your Tock haswell yet? Probably justifies it in some way.
Also i see nothing wrong with going off topic when their is no info it educates people and does not hurt anything.
I just think its funny how you guys are ranting about how good this next series will be. It's probably going to be about the same as anything else. An 8970 would be a slightly improved 7970 and be about on par with the 780, at most getting just under the Titan. I'd be surprised if they made something stronger. The only problem is power consumption. You can run something with a 750w PSU, and with Intel parts that take less power you can get more performance. Yeah it may not be much, but you can probably overclock Intel parts even more and get no more than the wattage AMD does.
Its reported to have twice the shaders, Also who cares about Power consumption on Desktops?
Its a bit disappointing but again by committing to FM2 limitations the only way embedded GDDR5 would work is if it was SoC, so there is not enough die space for embedded GDDR5 but I am assuming AMD will like Intel just embed high speed cache.
If there is the other possibility that AMD has no embed DRAM at all then the only way Kaveri can be saved from mediocre is if its CPU performance falls in line or close to Intel's allowing it to drive the GPU further, other than that by socket stability AMD may be shooting itself in the foot this time, albeit there is 6 months give or take before we know exactly so I won't panic to much at this juncture.
apologies for the long post. i 'm tired tryin' to read the haswell reviews... gotten to the point where i can see the pronounced blood vessels in my eyeballs reflected on the monitor.... <- yeah.. there were no other emoticons matching my current state.... i'll just gratuitously use the spoiler tag....
hcl123 :
No, you should take full responsibility for your choices and expect no one to make the choices for you. No one to blame... no one to accuse...
You want my advice pay me first, pay me well... lol... Isn't that what is WRONG with the paradigma ??
Why would be evil then intel ask $1000 for a Celeron ?
There is no evil when evil can't sustain itself without the complacence of interventionists, specially for some one that knows biasing, that knows becnhmarketing, that should know that any choise make today in IT is *ridiculously* short lived in the assumptions... that then should know the dangers of monopolies, that should know that is how it is even outside IT.
If doubts, at least now you are alerted... what you choose what you care is up to you.
ah, got it, well i think most of it. seems like a nice warning against intel's monopoly, yes? i've though long about this taking into account their bad business practices, monopolistic stance, even the possibility of a $1000 celeron. in the end, both are corporation, engaging business practices embraced by corporations. it's a waste of time picking one over the other. if intel comes close to gaining monopoly the government will step in and split them up. $1000 celeron: was unlikely before, more unlikely now. instead, we get price stagnation (current haswell lineup (shark bay?) might be the most overpriced yet). i guess that's what lack of performance competition does to the prices. that's why i mentioned why amd was created in the first place. besides, amd themselves will gouge given the opportunity, e.g. athlon fx, centurion, zambezi prices, the list goes on. when it comes down to choosing one out of a duopoly, the best thing is to set a budget and get something that fits in it. that's all.
others will have their own opinions.
hcl123 :
Radeon with Zambezi its truth, Radeon with Piledriver seems to be an inflexion with the very new drivers... gee... how fast assumptions change in IT... don't bet on SR the same...
And the fault is AMD alright, the state of flux, and doubt they would do anything to make me or anyone else right in this matter in any case... but all it takes is to make those drivers coded with XOP and FMA4 where ever possible and advantageous, to make a night and day difference ( intel doesn't support XOP/FMA4 natively, it would execute using microcode)
pd seems to behave the same as bd, a bit faster. when i mentioned opencl performance choking, i was refering to fx8350, not 8150. i think it's the gpus though, gcn seems to want more of cpu.
from agner's site(quite helpful when you get past the stuff), i read that intel pretty much screwed(ref. 1st part of the reply) amd with fma4. and if xop tries to gain traction, intel will somehow retaliate or something... so neither is likely to go industrywide. may be fma4 later when intel feels like it - sad state today..
hcl123 :
(1) AMD has no problem in CPU design, actually IMO in many many features its designs were always better and more scalable than intel. Its implementations are the crux, simply it has not the resources to compete with intel on intel rules and time schedules.
when i read bulldozer architecture preview, i had nearly the same impression. then i realized the hard way that design is only part of the end product and it's the parts of design that mainly decides what it's gonna end up as. i also liked individual aspects of how amd did bd even with my very limited knowledge. but when the cpus came out and got tested, i changed my opinion.
hcl123 :
About Hypertransport it is the "bus" of HSA, if you didn't know... IOMMU v2 up, including the now HSA standard IOMMU v2.5 is based on Hypertransport, so HTX slots (identical to x16 PCIe slots but better) would only be a logic evolution that most logically could make everything better, most because *every* proccesor from AMD, APU or CPU, is already a Hypertransport controller (switch) in the Xbar (past work of Jim Keller) (dispensing that way the additional translation to PCIe packet, which should have another controller)... only missing HSA games then to make a hell of a difference.
i vaguely knew.... i haven't put much thought into hsa apart from 'cpu and gpu communicate with far less latency'. was gonna catch up after kaveri came out but that seems to be moving farther away.
why would amd replace industrywide standard like pcie for htx? if they complement pcie, won't that raise motherboard cost? unless htx can reuse pcie lanes .....and this is already beyond my limited knowledge. and if cores(or cache or branch prediction or imc or other parts) are the bottlenecks, what good is a fast bus gonna do? from what i've been told, ht is open standard and quite forward-looking design so it was never an issue. then there's big bad intel - would they accept htx? well... before making big fuss and losing money into some kind of proprietary bus that looks like ht, walks like ht but isn't ht and controllers cost $100.....
i am interested to see how amd implements hsa with kaveri.
hcl123 :
(2) Wise IBM... but if you didn't know, the original 8080 for PCs was "bought" from IBM by intel, including the join development/specking or "advising" on the original 80286, perhaps "another" supplier was included in the deal then...
ah... yeah, there was something like that. i gotta read those again. the reason i mentioned that was - imo it's amd's job to keep intel in line and for the past few years, they have failed to do it (as a result, we get $240 core i5 4670k again ). too bad via isn't stronger.
hcl123 :
(3) more of the same and i fail to see any solution or improvement for AMD. AMD problem is not technical never was, its commercial. Right now is in a slow dead mode... HSA and ARM "detachment" might be exactly what the doctor ordered lol
(4) expect more of the trend and more pronouced.
@3: hsa seemed very promising from it's inception, no doubt. but i don't see how arm is gonna help. jaguar should do well in microserver area. amd has been pointed out as inexperienced in arm core design and if/when they launch a cpu/apu based on vanilla arm core, other long term arm players might have better offerings, once again relegating amd to second/third place. i see their gpu ip as a major differentiator as their gpu ip is the one thing keeping amd afloat at this point (apus and gpus).
@4:
okay 2nd post. diff content/questions, so.. here goes.
@ never really trusted BSofnews.com and wccdoesntknowutdahaswellistech.com.. but i didn't see in the promo slides saying kaveri dropped gddr5 and trimodule skus. so... what's next, kaveri gains L3 cache? and those guys all seem to be quoting different things sprung from the same source. what gives? +NaCl.
@centurion: afaik, all of the available amd motherboards are designed to fit 65-140w tdp cpus, according to their specs. so how will a 220w cpu, without redesigned power delivery, fit in current mobos? i need some enlightening on this issue.
@richland: just for lulz, i took a peek at tpu's haswell gt2 testing and noticed something funny (but not funny for the r.a.l.f.):
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_4770K_Haswell_GPU/
gt2 seems to meet and sometimes beat richland's 8670D (i.e. not the mobile sku). also check out the test settings' igpu(amd) driver version. apparently, gt2 played(!) crysis 3(!!!) and borderlands 2(!!) better than richland.
Just a rebrand refresh. I guess it will be nice for those who value that kind of thing and don't overclock.
Good for marketing too (my numbers are bigger than yours)
Yes some are calling them the Titan of CPUs alluding to Titan being a marketing card. Centurion line of chips can help AMD to gain time before Steamroller based FX are ready next year.
@richland: just for lulz, i took a peek at tpu's haswell gt2 testing and noticed something funny (but not funny for the r.a.l.f.):
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_4770K_Haswell_GPU/
gt2 seems to meet and sometimes beat richland's 8670D (i.e. not the mobile sku). also check out the test settings' igpu(amd) driver version. apparently, gt2 played(!) crysis 3(!!!) and borderlands 2(!!) better than richland.
I like how richland is ~0.4fps faster than trinity
7830-50/8770 (Better than 7770) iGPU performance and ~FX6350-6550 performance, for around the same price as the 6800K
Broken quote is broken.
Ranth :
de5_Roy :
@richland: just for lulz, i took a peek at tpu's haswell gt2 testing and noticed something funny (but not funny for the r.a.l.f.):
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_4770K_Haswell_GPU/
gt2 seems to meet and sometimes beat richland's 8670D (i.e. not the mobile sku). also check out the test settings' igpu(amd) driver version. apparently, gt2 played(!) crysis 3(!!!) and borderlands 2(!!) better than richland.
I like how richland is ~0.4fps faster than trinity
Read the AT review of GT3e.
GT3e kills Trinity desktop in gpu perf, at less than half TDP.
crystalwell is shared by both cpu and gpu.
I did not see any power consumption numbers in that review, all I saw was Intel's TDP label. That has proven to be not very truthful, especially on their mobile front.
That Sandy Bridge is a 17w chip, the Kabini is 15w. Sandy is drawing nearly double the power, with a TDP 2w higher. No reason to believe this behavior has changed.
Also, it does not look that appealing behind a $650 price tag.
de5_Roy :
okay 2nd post. diff content/questions, so.. here goes.
@ never really trusted BSofnews.com and wccdoesntknowutdahaswellistech.com.. but i didn't see in the promo slides saying kaveri dropped gddr5 and trimodule skus. so... what's next, kaveri gains L3 cache? and those guys all seem to be quoting different things sprung from the same source. what gives? +NaCl.
@centurion: afaik, all of the available amd motherboards are designed to fit 65-140w tdp cpus, according to their specs. so how will a 220w cpu, without redesigned power delivery, fit in current mobos? i need some enlightening on this issue.
@richland: just for lulz, i took a peek at tpu's haswell gt2 testing and noticed something funny (but not funny for the r.a.l.f.):
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_4770K_Haswell_GPU/
gt2 seems to meet and sometimes beat richland's 8670D (i.e. not the mobile sku). also check out the test settings' igpu(amd) driver version. apparently, gt2 played(!) crysis 3(!!!) and borderlands 2(!!) better than richland.
In all seriousness, I think most cases where GT2 comes close or beats the 7660D are at such low performance from either that it is irrelevant. Also, I would take any Richland numbers with salt right now.
Even if AM3+ is the socket they need a new chipset, they are very far behind in that front and AM3+ as it is now is not a good platform.
Wasting money on flogging AM3+, I really don't understand this decision at all.
On Steamroller architecture, tightening up cache latencies, lowering branch mispredicts, improvements to IMC should see fair enough gains. If I was to be a betting man I think the requisite parts will be maybe 3-5% slower than SB/IB (FX8~i7/i5 and FX6 and FX4 should sit in between a i3 and i5 or match the mainsteam i5's) Where this puts them after Haswell maybe around 7-10% slower.
Kaveri APU's should be quite impressive though.
the force seems strong with you. i'll ask you this: why/how are the 8-core AMD's, with a clock speed faster than intel's, slower than the lowest i5.
Here's the answer to your question, AMD cpu's cost less to consumers, AMD holds the
overclock record on LN, and AMD is a very small company compared to Intel.
Which non of that has anything to do with why an 8 Core cpu that clocked higher can't
overwhelm a 4 core lower clocked cpu, but when you don't have an answer for this you
say stuff like that.
@richland: just for lulz, i took a peek at tpu's haswell gt2 testing and noticed something funny (but not funny for the r.a.l.f.):
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_4770K_Haswell_GPU/
gt2 seems to meet and sometimes beat richland's 8670D (i.e. not the mobile sku). also check out the test settings' igpu(amd) driver version. apparently, gt2 played(!) crysis 3(!!!) and borderlands 2(!!) better than richland.
W1zzard tested the AMD setups with the same frequency RAM, that's why the scores are so close. With dual-channel DDR3-1866 for Trinity, it will be quite a bit faster. However, Haswell's HD4600 supports DDR3-2400 data rates, so on paper you may assume that skews things in their direction.
Anandtech, funny enough, actually shows how far Intel still has to go. With dual-channel DDR3-2133 on Trinity and dual-channel DDR3-2400 on Haswell, the HD7660D is still appreciably faster than the HD4600 and only Iris and Iris Pro graphics takes the win.
And note that the chips with Iris Pro graphics are around six times more expensive than the A10-5800K - at $657 for 1000-chip tray prices, AMD doesn't have much to fear from Iris graphics.
Its a bit disappointing but again by committing to FM2 limitations the only way embedded GDDR5 would work is if it was SoC, so there is not enough die space for embedded GDDR5 but I am assuming AMD will like Intel just embed high speed cache.
If there is the other possibility that AMD has no embed DRAM at all then the only way Kaveri can be saved from mediocre is if its CPU performance falls in line or close to Intel's allowing it to drive the GPU further, other than that by socket stability AMD may be shooting itself in the foot this time, albeit there is 6 months give or take before we know exactly so I won't panic to much at this juncture.
this one sais higher idle power too. as far as someone running one computer, idle power is pretty much a moot point. 64W@24hrs@14.5 c per kw/h (ca pricing) = 22c per day, using at's 35W = 12c per day. The problem is load power being more on haswell, likely will offset that low idle power.
And here I thought hasbeen was all about lowering power usage ...
Also looking at AT's GT3e review ... it gets stomped by Intel's proposed "650M performance" claims. only looks ok when its Vsyinc limited.
<- yeah.. there were no other emoticons matching my current state.... i'll just gratuitously use the spoiler tag....
apparently, gt2 played(!) crysis 3(!!!) and borderlands 2(!!) better than richland. 
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