AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[noob2222]

@juan

Your arguement about only looking at 720p resolutions kinda negates the other arguement that kaveri = high end gaming doesnt it?

As it turns out this whole time you were wrong in assuming that kaveri could = i5 2500k. Now that the reviews are out maybe you could admit something instead of complaining about how no one listens to you and putting everyone else down for not listening to you trying to convince the world that this APU direction is the way of the future because it is soo fast that AMD wont need any other products.

In the end going bulk screwed kaveri, and GF screwed AMD.

@ etoryus

You are correct. AMD doent like to see APUs benched against cpus, thats why its hard to even find it put against even a fx 4xxx cpu.

 

[etayorius]

@juan

Your arguement about only looking at 720p resolutions kinda negates the other arguement that kaveri = high end gaming doesnt it?

As it turns out this whole time you were wrong in assuming that kaveri could = i5 2500k. Now that the reviews are out maybe you could admit something instead of complaining about how no one listens to you and putting everyone else down for not listening to you trying to convince the world that this APU direction is the way of the future because it is soo fast that AMD wont need any other products.

In the end going bulk screwed kaveri, and GF screwed AMD.

@ etoryus

You are correct. AMD doent like to see APUs benched against cpus, thats why its hard to even find it put against even a fx 4xxx cpu.

We FINALLY came into an agreement... after all the back and forth argues with you, and not only Juanrga was wrong, i was too... ill give you both (You and Gamerk) that.

@Yuka - I am on AM3 board that does not support AM3+ CPUs... that´s why i am so persistent with the 980, i got no upgrade path unless i buy a new MotherBoard either AM3+ or FM2+, and at this point i thought i would move to Kaveri if the performance was right, so i am clueless as to what Socket to upgrade to, Intel is out of the Question.

In any case I don´t think Kaver is a complete Fail, the CPU side kinda is... but the whole APU is very easy on the eye, i am thinking about recommending Kaveri for my Cousins who play games like Burnout Paradise, San Andreas, Left4Dead2 and such on a very very crappy Dual AMD CPU at 2.2 and a iGPU Radeon HD3200, i am not even sure which CPU model is it, they could easily upgrade to a new system without spending too much on the GPU and get massive amounts of Performance Increase and being able to play modern games on Medium the less.

 

[noob2222]

There are a couple of aspects where kaveri is a good improvement over richland, but more where its just ... meh.
Encoding being one of the strong points.

 

[de5_Roy]

Clock for clock, PhII is faster than Trinity/Richland. A 4.3ghz 750k can't keep up with a 4.0ghz PhII 965 in games. Kaveri really isn't much of an improvement over Trinity/Richland. It would be a waste of $$$ for anyone with a PhII x4 to buy Kaveri. I am better off just getting a decent GPU and keeping the PhII X2 for WoW rig #4 as WoW doesn't do multicore very well anyway. It is sad that AMD still fails at building a better CPU than PhII clock for clock. FX Vishera is only faster due to the high clock speeds it can reach and better multicore support with the FX 83xx chips. A 4.2 FX 4350 is just barely faster in games than a 4.0ghz PhII X4 965. That is just pathetic.

clock-for-clock performance is only useful for measuring ipc. if richland is clocked high enough, ph ii's ipc advantage goes away.
like i said before, kaveri and ph ii address different performance and price segments. ph ii dropping to budget price points do not change that fact. ph ii was amd's high end lineup for am3, fx is amd's high end lineup. socket fm1/fm2/fm2+ is for budget and entry level segment. you're asking for hedt performance from an entry level part. for that, look to fx6300/8320 instead. Price is an important factor.
amd's.aim.was.Not.to.build.a.higher.performance.CPU. that's a goal for amd's hedt lineup which has been stalled with vishera.
a stock fx4350 will be slower than 4.0 ghz ph ii because at stock it's turbo barely works. vishera's turbo is not good enough.

 

[logainofhades]

Yeah, no... what part of as long as its faster i don´t care if it´s an APU you people don´t understand?

Besides, Richland already beats the 980 anytime so your argument about an APU not replacing an old k10 CPU falls apart in this regard.

Do i need to post all those Benchmarks again where Richlands mops the floor with the 980 in CPU Single and MultiCore? please no.

Richland and Trinity are identical on the CPU side. Trinity fails against a Phenom II 965. There is no way it is beating a 980.

 

[Fearnot]

http://www.hardcoreware.net/kaveri-review-a10-7850k/1/ Decided to finally make an account been following the forums since bulldozer, time to make a first post. The reviewer here hit 4.7ghz on air and 1020mhz on the gpu.

 

[Rum]

Here is a good review on the 7850K http://www.hardcoreware.net/kaveri-review-a10-7850k/ . They were able to OC the CPU to 4.7GHz stable which is pretty impressive along with the igpu at 1020Mhz. With some fine tuning to the Bios and software the 7850k could be a winner.
On a different note most reviews are calling the Kaveri 7600 a winner with the performance to watt ratio apparently AMD nailed it with this one which is good to see.

 

[gamerk316]

The 65W part looks VERY good for its price/performance, I'll say that much. For an integrated Laptop part? Its a winner, In the Desktop? Not so much.

I've ALWAYS viewed APU's as being a step up from a SoC, best fit for mobile devices. AMD should focus on flooding the laptop market with these, and maybe throw in a dGPU in upscale models for the benefit of hybrid-CF. That type of system would be a winner.

Also, I want someone, somewhere to answer me a simple question: If I have a NVIDIA dGPU involved, can I take advantage of HSA? EVERYTHING I'm reading indicates HSA is being handled driver side, a drive which can't even be installed if a NVIDIA dGPU is present.

 

[anxiousinfusion]

Adam Kozak discussing FX Piledriver vs Steamroller in regards to clock frequencies, core counts being more important, etc. There is just some information here that I figure you guys would enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V44T9X1tYI

 

[logainofhades]

The 65W part looks VERY good for its price/performance, I'll say that much. For an integrated Laptop part? Its a winner, In the Desktop? Not so much.

I've ALWAYS viewed APU's as being a step up from a SoC, best fit for mobile devices. AMD should focus on flooding the laptop market with these, and maybe throw in a dGPU in upscale models for the benefit of hybrid-CF. That type of system would be a winner.

Also, I want someone, somewhere to answer me a simple question: If I have a NVIDIA dGPU involved, can I take advantage of HSA? EVERYTHING I'm reading indicates HSA is being handled driver side, a drive which can't even be installed if a NVIDIA dGPU is present.

If a laptop variant were to come out that could significantly outperform my i5 2430m and GT 540m, I would probably consider one. Sadly, I just don't see it happening.

 

[etayorius]

PerformanceTest reports Final "CPU Mark" Score for Richland of 5,414 against PII 980 Final Score of 4,680 and up to 20% better SingleCore, while CPUBoss report up to 20% Better PassMark SingleCore, but let´s cherry pick the CineBench11.5 SingleCore and make a big deal out of, why did you not commented on PassMark and PerformanceTest? You guys are masters at this hehe.

But have it your way if it makes you feel better.

 

[etayorius]

Adam Kozak discussing FX Piledriver vs Steamroller in regards to clock frequencies, core counts being more important, etc. There is just some information here that I figure you guys would enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V44T9X1tYI

Nice find, that´s basically what ExtremeTech said on their Kaveri Review.

 

[logainofhades]

PhII 965 @ 4.0ghz also beats Trinity @ 4.3ghz in some applications, not just gaming. With both at 4.0, PhII would win hands down. Clock for clock, Phenom II is just simply better than BD, Trinity, and Richland. Kaveri doesn't appear to be much of an improvement overall, so I still find it to be disappointing.

 

[juanrga]

Juan if your referring to memory wall as in Patterson's three walls then you still don't understand palladin's point above ... he is talkign about the cache memory latency and efficiency on the die ... your referring to the size of the memory.

For other's here is the basic premise, courtesy of a very good article by Rich Pell, referenced below:

"Power Wall + Memory Wall + ILP Wall = Brick Wall"

- The Power Wall means faster computers get really hot.
- The Memory Wall means 1000 pins on a CPU package is way too many.
- ILP Wall means a deeper instruction pipeline really means digging a deeper power hole. (ILP stands for instruction level parallelism.)

http://www.edn.com/design/systems-design/4368705/The-future-of-computers--Part-1-Multicore-and-the-Memory-Wall

No. I am not referring to the size of memory. I was referring to what Palladin explained. Also by power wall I don't mean the above definition. I am using the terms as used in the exascale supercomputer research community.

I've always argued the L3, for most tasks, is just wasted space on the die. It isn't significantly faster then access main memory normally would. Might just be better off enlarging the L2 really...

The ultra-high-performance SoC by Nvidia is not using L3 cache.

 

[esrever]

Well kaveri has come and it is ok. Seems like it would be good in mobiles and HTPCs as always but I wouldn't want to use it with a dedicated card. The HSA section in Anandtech's article was actually pretty good unlike the rest of it. Seems like we are now waiting on excavator.

 

[logainofhades]

In an HTPC that is only for video playback type use, the lower wattage Kaveri chips would probably be a good choice. Any HTPC I build would have to be able to play games well also, so no go for me.

 

[UnrelatedTopic]

Well kaveri has come and it is ok. Seems like it would be good in mobiles and HTPCs as always but I wouldn't want to use it with a dedicated card. The HSA section in Anandtech's article was actually pretty good unlike the rest of it. Seems like we are now waiting on excavator.

*sigh* seems like Kaveri is not AMD's messiah.

 

[juanrga]

@juan

Your arguement about only looking at 720p resolutions kinda negates the other arguement that kaveri = high end gaming doesnt it?

As it turns out this whole time you were wrong in assuming that kaveri could = i5 2500k. Now that the reviews are out maybe you could admit something instead of complaining about how no one listens to you and putting everyone else down for not listening to you trying to convince the world that this APU direction is the way of the future because it is soo fast that AMD wont need any other products.

In the end going bulk screwed kaveri, and GF screwed AMD.

Are you kidding? Looking at 720p if one is doing a "CPU benchmark" is irrelevant to using Kaveri to game at 1080p or another resolution.

You must call "review" to what anandtech did. I don't.

I am still waiting for the review of Kaveri, when it was out I will compare with my predictions using the same software. At this moment I am neither optimistic nor pessimistic. However, I recall that some pages ago I wrote

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/352312-28-steamroller-speculation-expert-conjecture/page-213#12380437

Taking this review as base [...] Kaveri would score ~9.5, which is at the i5-2400 level and only ~8% behind FX-6300 and i5-2500k. It looks very close to my prediction ;-)

The same site has finally measured 9.08 (i.e. 9.1) for Kaveri.

This means that Kaveri is a ~11% behind instead a 8% behind. Yes, I see that this is a giant error of about 3% in my prediction about Kaveri in this concrete benchmark. LOL

AMD has a clear direction towards APU, that you don't like it doesn't change anything. And the issue about why bulk was the correct choice explained to you plenty of times, No need to repeat again.

 

[blackkstar]

How come AMD releases a chip that's barely faster and uses more power, and everyone is disappointed, and when Intel does the same, so many people are happy? Is it because Intel is in the lead already?

 

[gamerk316]

The 65W part looks VERY good for its price/performance, I'll say that much. For an integrated Laptop part? Its a winner, In the Desktop? Not so much.

I've ALWAYS viewed APU's as being a step up from a SoC, best fit for mobile devices. AMD should focus on flooding the laptop market with these, and maybe throw in a dGPU in upscale models for the benefit of hybrid-CF. That type of system would be a winner.

Also, I want someone, somewhere to answer me a simple question: If I have a NVIDIA dGPU involved, can I take advantage of HSA? EVERYTHING I'm reading indicates HSA is being handled driver side, a drive which can't even be installed if a NVIDIA dGPU is present.

If a laptop variant were to come out that could significantly outperform my i5 2430m and GT 540m, I would probably consider one. Sadly, I just don't see it happening.

Which I think is AMD's problem: Where's the Tablet/Laptop product built around this?

 

[gamerk316]

How come AMD releases a chip that's barely faster and uses more power, and everyone is disappointed, and when Intel does the same, so many people are happy? Is it because Intel is in the lead already?

Wait, people liked Hasfail?

In all seriousness, Intel strengthened its GPU a TON; a good 30% boost, which was badly needed. Its at least barely adequate for most non-gaming tasks now. Considering how bad Intel IGPs were, that is laudable. And that's what they got credit for.

 

[Master-flaw]

Kaveri's fine...
The opening prices are not.

 

[logainofhades]

How come AMD releases a chip that's barely faster and uses more power, and everyone is disappointed, and when Intel does the same, so many people are happy? Is it because Intel is in the lead already?

I cannot think of anyone that was happy with Hasfail upon release. Even the reviewer for THG put enthusiasts yawn in the title. :lol:

 

[-Fran-]

Which I think is AMD's problem: Where's the Tablet/Laptop product built around this?

I don't really know whose problem it is, but yeah, partially AMD at least.

Now... What the A8-7600 showed in today's benchies is amazing; it would be interesting to slap that APU into a notebook and compare with similar 15W to 45W offerings from Intel (in notebooks, of course).

Weird AMD decided to do it backwards this time, since previously, the mobile parts shipped a lot earlier. I wonder what they're cooking. (CAN YOU SMEEEEEEEEELL? haha)

Cheers!

 

[de5_Roy]

i think we're gonna (hopefully) see a large of cheaper steamboxes running 4 core lower power kaveri apus instead of richland. the 65w and 45w ones are prime candidates.
to improve upon that, oems could slap mobile kaveri with dual gfx-able discreet gpu with a desktop and o.c. friendly bios... seems nice.