AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[juanrga]

My beliefs/guesses for K12 core, an update:

• 
  ■'small' core, Jaguar style, but with improved IPC and frequency
  ■~5mm^2
  ■~25% +IPC
  ■3.0--3.5GHz
  ■CMP architecture
  ■SMT2
  ■2x128bit SIMD/FP unit

Disclaimer: no warranty, I can update my opinion without notice

 

[8350rocks]

Considering they already have plans for AVX2, you are short 256 bits on the FMAC pipeline...

 

[juanrga]

Uh? We are discussing what AMD engineers planned and executed. [...] Bulldozer never was a Brainiac design, it was a speed-demon design.

I finally found the relevant quote with AMD engineers confirming that they designed a speed-demon:

With its Bulldozer architecture, AMD's architects say it was their goal to “hold the line” on IPC and create hardware that’d scale to much higher frequencies.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8150-zambezi-bulldozer-990fx,3043-6.html

In fact engineers were expecting a slight reduction in IPC compared to predecessor, but it would be broadly compensated by the higher frequencies.

 

[palladin9479]

Guys play nice.

That being said, when did the A6-7600 start showing up in stores? I know AMD announced it but nobody had any and it kinda got forgotten. Now I see amazon offering it for $110 USD which is a stupidly good deal.

AMD A8-7600 at Amazon

A 45/65W single chip solution is ideal for quiet low profile casual gaming devices. There is all sorts of stuff you can build with something like this.

 

[gamerk316]

So, Via:

http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/202809/via-readying-new-64-bit-x86-processor-to-take-on-intel-bay-trail-and-amd-kabini.html

Not bad, trading blows with AMD and beating Intel at the low end is no small feat.

 

[sapperastro]

Perhaps we need a VIA (I still think 'Cyrix' sometimes...) thread now?

 

[8350rocks]

@gamerk:

Except one of those solutions costs far more than the others...LOL!

 

[szatkus]

So, Via:

http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/202809/via-readying-new-64-bit-x86-processor-to-take-on-intel-bay-trail-and-amd-kabini.html

Not bad, trading blows with AMD and beating Intel at the low end is no small feat.

Quite old news.

But wait, it's almost ready...

http://www.centtech.com/

 

[whyso]

So, Via:

http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/202809/via-readying-new-64-bit-x86-processor-to-take-on-intel-bay-trail-and-amd-kabini.html

Not bad, trading blows with AMD and beating Intel at the low end is no small feat.

So a 2W SDP/ 4W TDP vs. a 25W chip vs. a ?? TDP chip.

Performance without power is meaningless.

 

[colinp]

Only if TDP is the constraining factor. If price is the constraining factor, then it's relevant to compare performance at a similar price point.

 

[jdwii]

Guys play nice.

That being said, when did the A6-7600 start showing up in stores? I know AMD announced it but nobody had any and it kinda got forgotten. Now I see amazon offering it for $110 USD which is a stupidly good deal.

AMD A8-7600 at Amazon

A 45/65W single chip solution is ideal for quiet low profile casual gaming devices. There is all sorts of stuff you can build with something like this.

It competes more with the Pentium then a I3. The GPU on it is still only good for 720P low-medium settings in games. But for HTPC and 45 watts well i guess i still see no reason for it when products like the Athlon 5350 exist and its less money and 25 watts and can easily do HD video.

 

[jdwii]

I never understood why Amd didn't buy VIA their is some nice engineers their i actually can't believe they are still alive.

 

[whyso]

Only if TDP is the constraining factor. If price is the constraining factor, then it's relevant to compare performance at a similar price point.

By comparing the top Kabini SKU against the thermally constrained Z3770? The J2900 is significantly faster with a 10W tdp for the same die.

 

[gamerk316]

I never understood why Amd didn't buy VIA their is some nice engineers their i actually can't believe they are still alive.

Via is a major sub-supplier to everyone in the industry. A company like ASUS has its hand in all the different types of HW, but Via has its hand in all the different pieces that make up that HW. They're basically a sub-vendor, but a very good one. And being so diversified ensures they have a steady revenue stream that can survive shortfalls in one or two product segments, unlike the other two X86 vendors.

Point is, AMD could never afford to purchase Via.

 

[palladin9479]

So, Via:

http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/202809/via-readying-new-64-bit-x86-processor-to-take-on-intel-bay-trail-and-amd-kabini.html

Not bad, trading blows with AMD and beating Intel at the low end is no small feat.

Yeah Via always keeps quiet and targets an entirely different market segment then either Intel or AMD. These are the guys who invented mini-ITX along with pico-ITX and nano-ITX, they brought x86 to the purpose built industrial appliance computer.

For those of you wondering about Via, they primarily produce integrated boards (EPIA platform) targeted at industrial applications, medical systems, Point of Sale systems, ATM's, information Kioks and media boards. These are extremely specialized systems that need to operate in a wide range of environments (temps / humidity) and never break. They also tend to have very unique IO requirements often needing several high speed serial connections or many GPIO pins. These systems have higher profit margins but require the company to work really close with industrial partners. They were also the first x86 chip to have on-board hardware accelerated encryption (Padlock).

Chances are everyone here is around a ton of Via systems everyday but never notices them. Next time your at the check out look behind the cash register, you'll see a very familiar mini-itx backplate with all the typical PC connectors, chances are it's a Via system running that Point of Sale device. Same with ATM's and many medical systems. And because they target a segment that Intel and AMD pretty much ignore they don't have to worry much about competition. Those industries care more about reliability then performance.

 

[palladin9479]

Guys play nice.

That being said, when did the A6-7600 start showing up in stores? I know AMD announced it but nobody had any and it kinda got forgotten. Now I see amazon offering it for $110 USD which is a stupidly good deal.

AMD A8-7600 at Amazon

A 45/65W single chip solution is ideal for quiet low profile casual gaming devices. There is all sorts of stuff you can build with something like this.

It competes more with the Pentium then a I3. The GPU on it is still only good for 720P low-medium settings in games. But for HTPC and 45 watts well i guess i still see no reason for it when products like the Athlon 5350 exist and its less money and 25 watts and can easily do HD video.

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

 

[-Fran-]

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

Dolphin, Stepmania and Ultra Star with my aging A8 is amazing for when friends come, haha.

I switched the case to a bigger one now, to fit a full size video card and it still fits under the TV, so I might upgrade to something around an i5 this time + 750ti or a 270X underclocked.

Anyway, the A10-7800 is still impressive IMO. For someone who wants all the shaders "just in case", it's a great performer, without the price of a K. Although they're fairly close. I still feel the 7600 will feel old sooner than the 7800, but you can get an HSF with the price difference, haha.

Cheers!

 

[palladin9479]

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

Dolphin, Stepmania and Ultra Star with my aging A8 is amazing for when friends come, haha.

I switched the case to a bigger one now, to fit a full size video card and it still fits under the TV, so I might upgrade to something around an i5 this time + 750ti or a 270X underclocked.

Anyway, the A10-7800 is still impressive IMO. For someone who wants all the shaders "just in case", it's a great performer, without the price of a K. Although they're fairly close. I still feel the 7600 will feel old sooner than the 7800, but you can get an HSF with the price difference, haha.

Cheers!

I do a ton of Indie games and emulators on my 6800K. The problem with 512 shaders is that DDR3 simply doesn't provide enough bandwidth to effectively use them all, and that won't change until we move to a faster memory bus. It's why you can see the A8-7600 right next to the A10-7800/7850 despite it having 25% less graphics power. I'm really picky on how my living room looks, it's got to be atheistically pleasing and color match with the rest along with having absolutely zero ambient noise. The sound of a fan blowing really ruins the mood and is too distracting. As enthusiasts we tend to pride ourselves in these powerful systems and often we overlook the fact that most people desire aesthetics over pure power.

Anyhow I've decided to build that super small casual gaming device I mentioned earlier. When I'm done I'll post pictures.

 

[jdwii]

Guys play nice.

That being said, when did the A6-7600 start showing up in stores? I know AMD announced it but nobody had any and it kinda got forgotten. Now I see amazon offering it for $110 USD which is a stupidly good deal.

AMD A8-7600 at Amazon

A 45/65W single chip solution is ideal for quiet low profile casual gaming devices. There is all sorts of stuff you can build with something like this.

It competes more with the Pentium then a I3. The GPU on it is still only good for 720P low-medium settings in games. But for HTPC and 45 watts well i guess i still see no reason for it when products like the Athlon 5350 exist and its less money and 25 watts and can easily do HD video.

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

Pentium has integrated video as well and is good enough for 1080P video as well. " right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3" No the A10 alone can barley compete with a 4870 ATi let alone a 6850-7850 you do know the 7770-250x has more GCN cores right? I don't get your point actually just because it runs on slow bandwidth it becomes as powerful as a 6800-7850?
Last paragraph i agree with however

 

[jdwii]

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

Dolphin, Stepmania and Ultra Star with my aging A8 is amazing for when friends come, haha.

I switched the case to a bigger one now, to fit a full size video card and it still fits under the TV, so I might upgrade to something around an i5 this time + 750ti or a 270X underclocked.

Anyway, the A10-7800 is still impressive IMO. For someone who wants all the shaders "just in case", it's a great performer, without the price of a K. Although they're fairly close. I still feel the 7600 will feel old sooner than the 7800, but you can get an HSF with the price difference, haha.

Cheers!

I do a ton of Indie games and emulators on my 6800K. The problem with 512 shaders is that DDR3 simply doesn't provide enough bandwidth to effectively use them all, and that won't change until we move to a faster memory bus. It's why you can see the A8-7600 right next to the A10-7800/7850 despite it having 25% less graphics power. I'm really picky on how my living room looks, it's got to be atheistically pleasing and color match with the rest along with having absolutely zero ambient noise. The sound of a fan blowing really ruins the mood and is too distracting. As enthusiasts we tend to pride ourselves in these powerful systems and often we overlook the fact that most people desire aesthetics over pure power.

Anyhow I've decided to build that super small casual gaming device I mentioned earlier. When I'm done I'll post pictures.

I could easily build a rig with a real video card and nice CPU that would fit into a mini-itx build that would look nice on your entertainment center.

Off topic pet peeve of mine why on earth do people say Amd runs hot even today when Intel runs WAY hotter.

 

[palladin9479]

Guys play nice.

That being said, when did the A6-7600 start showing up in stores? I know AMD announced it but nobody had any and it kinda got forgotten. Now I see amazon offering it for $110 USD which is a stupidly good deal.

AMD A8-7600 at Amazon

A 45/65W single chip solution is ideal for quiet low profile casual gaming devices. There is all sorts of stuff you can build with something like this.

It competes more with the Pentium then a I3. The GPU on it is still only good for 720P low-medium settings in games. But for HTPC and 45 watts well i guess i still see no reason for it when products like the Athlon 5350 exist and its less money and 25 watts and can easily do HD video.

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

Pentium has integrated video as well and is good enough for 1080P video as well. " right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3" No the A10 alone can barley compete with a 4870 Amd let alone a 6850-7850 you do know the 7770-250x has more GCN cores right? I don't get your point actually just because it runs on slow bandwidth it becomes as powerful as a 6800-7850?
Last paragraph i agree with however

WTF...

You realize the issue here is memory right? The SR iGPU's are currently maxing out the bandwidth on the DDR3 bus. All those cards you listed are GDDR5 cards and at the 90~100$ level. Under that is the "DDR3" variants of those which are the budget products and some are actually worse then the APU's. This was a huge issue I had with people trying to say "just buy a i3 and a X GPU". They use the price of the cheap DDR3 version but the performance of the GDDR5 version. Either way your still looking at a $109 USD price ceiling ($120 on newegg) which simply doesn't have enough room for GDD5 dGPU. Hell those cost 90~100 USD on their own, $80 USD if you get lucky and get one on sale. So your talking $0~30 USD for a CPU that's is better then the A8-7600.

And no you can't build a system with a dGPU that would look good in my living room. Things that look like computers stay in my office / mad scientist lab, I have a policy of keeping the rest of the apartment as geek-free as possible. The current SFF box is a bit too much and I'm looking to replace it soon with something that will be 100% hidden from view. I'm very very picky about looks and sounds in places outside my lab.

 

[juanrga]

AMD graphics shipments grow... thanks to APUs like Kaveri

AMD has seen its graphics part shipments increase 11 per cent quarter-on-quarter, while Intel's shipments have grown 4 per cent. The loser for the quarter was Nvidia, with its graphics shipments dropping 8.3 per cent quarter-on-quarter.

The market for discrete graphics cards is down 17.5 per cent in favor of integrated graphics hardware.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2014/08/19/amd-graphics-shipments/

 

[jdwii]

Guys play nice.

That being said, when did the A6-7600 start showing up in stores? I know AMD announced it but nobody had any and it kinda got forgotten. Now I see amazon offering it for $110 USD which is a stupidly good deal.

AMD A8-7600 at Amazon

A 45/65W single chip solution is ideal for quiet low profile casual gaming devices. There is all sorts of stuff you can build with something like this.

It competes more with the Pentium then a I3. The GPU on it is still only good for 720P low-medium settings in games. But for HTPC and 45 watts well i guess i still see no reason for it when products like the Athlon 5350 exist and its less money and 25 watts and can easily do HD video.

It competes with the i3 because the i3 is what has integrated video. And at $109 USD it crush's any combination of dCPU + dGPU because you can't get a GDDR5 dGPU cheap enough. Graphically its right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3 being the limiting factor of all of then. It can play all the media you want along with light gaming, the kinds I do while sitting on the couch in my shorts. If you really want to go crazy, install the A8-7600 in a M350 case with 8GB DDR3-2133 and a HDD and *poof* instant ultra compact light gaming PC.

And btw the "720p" is only for modern games, older games can easily be done at 1080p. I know this because I have a 6800K in a SFF build that runs all sorts of older stuff. I would even go as far as to say that I spend more time playing older games then anything made in the past 4~5 years. It just seems that every new game is made to look pretty but just isn't *fun* to play for very long. This is on a totally different topic and maybe I'm the crazy one here, but the older games really seem more engaging and entertaining to play then the ones made since ~2008.

Pentium has integrated video as well and is good enough for 1080P video as well. " right on par with the 6800/7800 due to 128-bit DDR3" No the A10 alone can barley compete with a 4870 Amd let alone a 6850-7850 you do know the 7770-250x has more GCN cores right? I don't get your point actually just because it runs on slow bandwidth it becomes as powerful as a 6800-7850?
Last paragraph i agree with however

WTF...

You realize the issue here is memory right? The SR iGPU's are currently maxing out the bandwidth on the DDR3 bus. All those cards you listed are GDDR5 cards and at the 90~100$ level. Under that is the "DDR3" variants of those which are the budget products and some are actually worse then the APU's. This was a huge issue I had with people trying to say "just buy a i3 and a X GPU". They use the price of the cheap DDR3 version but the performance of the GDDR5 version. Either way your still looking at a $109 USD price ceiling ($120 on newegg) which simply doesn't have enough room for GDD5 dGPU. Hell those cost 90~100 USD on their own, $80 USD if you get lucky and get one on sale. So your talking $0~30 USD for a CPU that's is better then the A8-7600.

And no you can't build a system with a dGPU that would look good in my living room. Things that look like computers stay in my office / mad scientist lab, I have a policy of keeping the rest of the apartment as geek-free as possible. The current SFF box is a bit too much and I'm looking to replace it soon with something that will be 100% hidden from view. I'm very very picky about looks and sounds in places outside my lab.

I see now you are talking about the APU series and not the GPU series i thought you where saying the A10 7850K is even with a 6800 GPU sorry that is my fault, and yes for the price that APU gives you the best option i just see no use for it myself as its not good enough for gaming except for 720P low-medium and its overkill for HTPC. Also if you are that picky about spaces in your living room why not just get a mini PC with a nice setup that runs on mobile parts, i'm guessing you have no receiver in your leaving room either or have some wimpy one like bose. You could easily without a doubt build a gaming rig that is the same size as a modern receiver such as the pioneer SC-87.

 

[jdwii]

AMD graphics shipments grow... thanks to APUs like Kaveri

AMD has seen its graphics part shipments increase 11 per cent quarter-on-quarter, while Intel's shipments have grown 4 per cent. The loser for the quarter was Nvidia, with its graphics shipments dropping 8.3 per cent quarter-on-quarter.

The market for discrete graphics cards is down 17.5 per cent in favor of integrated graphics hardware.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2014/08/19/amd-graphics-shipments/

I'm honestly scared for Nvidia the last thing i want to see is Amd only with intel trolling the GPU department. Nvidia makes great products even their Arm processors are nice but no one gets them.

 

[etayorius]

AMD graphics shipments grow... thanks to APUs like Kaveri

AMD has seen its graphics part shipments increase 11 per cent quarter-on-quarter, while Intel's shipments have grown 4 per cent. The loser for the quarter was Nvidia, with its graphics shipments dropping 8.3 per cent quarter-on-quarter.

The market for discrete graphics cards is down 17.5 per cent in favor of integrated graphics hardware.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2014/08/19/amd-graphics-shipments/

I'm honestly scared for Nvidia the last thing i want to see is Amd only with intel trolling the GPU department. Nvidia makes great products even their Arm processors are nice but no one gets them.

nVidia needs a good shake down, so they humble themselves a bit.