AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[szatkus]

4670k != 7850k

AMD marketing wouldn't agree with you.

http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/A10-7850K-vs-Core-i5-4670K1.jpg

Hell, it was even just slightly cheaper than i5 at the begining.

So wait a sec, when did Intel catch up in IGP performance? That graph makes me LESS INCLINED to buy AMD, since we know the CPU portion of the chip is much stronger on the Intel side.

It was done with R9 270X. And yes, GPU obviously was a bottleneck. Still bunch of people after seeing that leaked slide though that A10 would be as fast as i5.

 

[gamerk316]

4670k != 7850k

AMD marketing wouldn't agree with you.

http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/A10-7850K-vs-Core-i5-4670K1.jpg

Hell, it was even just slightly cheaper than i5 at the begining.

So wait a sec, when did Intel catch up in IGP performance? That graph makes me LESS INCLINED to buy AMD, since we know the CPU portion of the chip is much stronger on the Intel side.

It was done with R9 270X. And yes, GPU obviously was a bottleneck. Still bunch of people after seeing that leaked slide though that A10 would be as fast as i5.

Oh, doy, reading fail. Ok, obvious GPU bottleneck is obvious.

 

[anxiousinfusion]

4670k != 7850k

AMD marketing wouldn't agree with you.

http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/A10-7850K-vs-Core-i5-4670K1.jpg

Hell, it was even just slightly cheaper than i5 at the begining.

So wait a sec, when did Intel catch up in IGP performance? That graph makes me LESS INCLINED to buy AMD, since we know the CPU portion of the chip is much stronger on the Intel side.

"R9 290X Graphics"

 

[logainofhades]

(No one uses the stock cooler anyway do they?)

Yup, only 99% people I know

Most people do. Only enthusiasts really bother with aftermarket cooling.

 

[blackkstar]

I think perhaps you misunderstood. I was saying we'd get a Hawaii refresh to hold us over until 20nm chips came out. Looking at GTX 970 and 980 release, it looks like Nvidia is set to stick with that for a while, with maybe a new Titan class chip for a ton of money.

I'd sort of imagine a Hawaii refresh to stop the bleeding against 970 and 980 and then a 20nm new chip that's not Hawaii to compete against a new Titan in the spring (Fiji).

Yes, that makes sense.

BTW, you still believe in 20nm Fiji?

AMD has an opportunity with a 2p platform like that, specially regarding the news that Intel is merging mobile and desktop and there's rumors swirling of basically them abandoning big cores and making some middle of the road Atom/Core chip.

If that did happen, Intel would basically hand over HEDT, professional workstations, and big number crunchers to AMD and HSA.

Plus, I find it a bit entertaining to go from "AMD is going to abandon all big cores and Intel will destroy them" to "Intel is going to abandon big cores while AMD releases a 16m/32c 2p platform"

I am attracted to what seronx is saying because I hit this earlier. If AMD is building unified memory architectures between CPU and GPU, why not make unified memory between many CPUs and many GPUs? AMD will have a strategic position where they can release a platform with many CPUs and many GPUs, and they are all HSA accelerated and all you have to do is recompile the software (as long as it's using OpenMP) and then you've got a computing monster on your hands. A 2p, 8m/16c CPU rig with HSA and two Fiji GPUs would be serious competition to things like Xeon Phi and CUDA. And with what AMD is doing with OpenMP, it'd completely bypass the issue of being forced to use the wrong device for the wrong job or to incur stiff performance penalties for transferring the entire workload in memory over a "slow" bus like PCIe 3.0 x16.

HSA JPEG decoding and HSA Open Office sorting is cool, but sorting numbers and loading thumbnails faster on a laptop seems like a bit of wasted potential with HSA, no?

There are always a lot of crazy rumors after news like that.
Intel get most of their revenue from "HEDT, professional workstations, and big number crunchers". Abandoning it for gadget lovers doesn't sound like a good idea, especially if dozen of ARM cores compete on that market.

I don't know, to be honest. It probably isn't 20nm from what I've heard, but 28nm is old by now. We saw first 28nm GPUs January 9th, 2012. We are coming up on 3 years of 28nm GPUs and Nvidia seems to be willing to ride 28nm on GTX 970 and GTX 980 for most of 2015.

I'm just conjecturing at this point. AMD usually beats Nvidia to a new node. Nvidia is legal cat fighting with Samsung and Samsung and GloFo are working together now on process nodes. So that leaves Nvidia with TSMC and 20nm TSMC is no good for GPUs. But GloFo 20nm or 14nm is IIRC.

Personally, you've got fx8350rocks in here talking about process nodes for Nvidia and AMD not being the same for GPUs anymore, Nvidia doing some odd things like releasing a faster chip yet focusing on marketing on efficiency, etc. And of course you've got GloFo issues with 28nn, 22nm/20nm, and AMD working with GPUs on GloFo process with APUs. Maybe 28nm GloFo is vastly superior to 28nm TSMC and that's all it is? Who knows. Perhaps I am just upset that we are looking at the possibility of more than 3 years of 28nm GPUs.

Also, the TIM has nothing to do with Intel bad temps. The process has terrible voltage scaling and it gets hot. There have been plenty of chips that use TIM and stay cool in the past. My old Opteron 165 used TIM before I dellided it and it ran plenty cool, even at 3ghz from 1.8ghz and a lot of voltage with a little Zalman cooler on it. Solder helps, but if the chip is going to run hot, it's still going to run hot even if you delid it. TIM is rated to transfer certain amounts of heat, and Intel CPUs work better without TIM because they are exceeding specs for the TIM between IHS and die. 7850k uses TIM and is fine because it doesn't exceed those specs. Everyone busy fawning over "muh nanometers" and saying Intel is best process without realizing they created a process that runs too hot for TIM yet breaks down when applying fluxless solder between IHS and die.

EDIT: http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/36285-tsmc-16nm-finfet-plus-in-risk-production
TSMC just hit 16nm risk production. No one else finds it weird that Nvidia releases 28nm chips at this time? Usually when you release a new GPU, you are stuck with it for a minimum of 6 months. Unless we're going to see something like GTx 970 and 980 get rebranded as mid-range chips while Nvidia re-names entire line up (unless they actually go with GTX 10x0 naming lol) and the new high end is 16nm? Nvidia's actions seem completely odd to me.

 

[jdwii]

(No one uses the stock cooler anyway do they?)

Yup, only 99% people I know

Really? Even most HP and Dell PC's i take a part have their own heat-sink that isn't Amd's.

 

[jdwii]

4670k != 7850k

AMD marketing wouldn't agree with you.

http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/A10-7850K-vs-Core-i5-4670K1.jpg

Hell, it was even just slightly cheaper than i5 at the begining.

Amd's(Nvidia, Intel) marketing is just silly its always been that way

 

[-Fran-]

The current boxed coolers from AMD suck. Plain and simple. From the times of the Athlon X2 (Toledo, in particular) I have to say I was impressed on the quality for them. All the way up to the Phenom II 965 C I had, I was fairly happy with the boxed cooler as a *decent" and *sufficient* option for them. But from what I have seen from the 3850 (Llano, 100W) and FX4300 (125W, IIRC), I've been disappointed to the point of not even counting on the stocked cooling solution and go with something custom/aftermarket by default.

That's that.

So, what about Carrizio? Any new updates on it? Any leaks? I'm very interested in seeing what the magic pixie dust from Tonga (Radeon 285) for the bandwidth brings to the table.

Cheers!

 

[szatkus]

EDIT: http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/36285-tsmc-16nm-finfet-plus-in-risk-production
TSMC just hit 16nm risk production. No one else finds it weird that Nvidia releases 28nm chips at this time? Usually when you release a new GPU, you are stuck with it for a minimum of 6 months. Unless we're going to see something like GTx 970 and 980 get rebranded as mid-range chips while Nvidia re-names entire line up (unless they actually go with GTX 10x0 naming lol) and the new high end is 16nm? Nvidia's actions seem completely odd to me.

Nothing weird, that's why it's called risk production. I doubt that they'll get from risk to mass production in 6 months and even then it's couple of months before release (28 was in mass production about November of 2011). At least year from you can except 16nm GeForces.

 

[gamerk316]

EDIT: http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/36285-tsmc-16nm-finfet-plus-in-risk-production
TSMC just hit 16nm risk production. No one else finds it weird that Nvidia releases 28nm chips at this time? Usually when you release a new GPU, you are stuck with it for a minimum of 6 months. Unless we're going to see something like GTx 970 and 980 get rebranded as mid-range chips while Nvidia re-names entire line up (unless they actually go with GTX 10x0 naming lol) and the new high end is 16nm? Nvidia's actions seem completely odd to me.

Nothing weird, that's why it's called risk production. I doubt that they'll get from risk to mass production in 6 months and even then it's couple of months before release (28 was in mass production about November of 2011). At least year from you can except 16nm GeForces.

Pretty much. No one knows what the yields are going to be yet, hence "risk production". So you're still about a year to 18 months away from the next node.

 

[szatkus]

(No one uses the stock cooler anyway do they?)

Yup, only 99% people I know

Really? Even most HP and Dell PC's i take a part have their own heat-sink that isn't Amd's.

Different culture. Where I live when you want to buy a desktop you just go to someone who knows something about computers and ask about specification. With list of parts you go to computer shop, give them that list and they build it for you (less than 20 euros, sometimes free). Very few people buy HP or Dell's desktops, because they are usually more expensive.

 

[szatkus]

So, what about Carrizio? Any new updates on it? Any leaks? I'm very interested in seeing what the magic pixie dust from Tonga (Radeon 285) for the bandwidth brings to the table.

Did someone mentioned that Full Tonga lives in iMac 5K? And it has 256-bit bus.

http://www.sisoftware.eu/rank2011d/show_system.php?q=cea598a99ea695a492b4d3eec3f2d4a69bab8de4d9e8cea69bae88f0cdfcdabfdae7d7f182bf87 (looks like a refresh or something)

Nothing knew about Carrizo except its size (mentioned on previous page).
Also I found out that Basilisk APU (whatever it is) has an interposer (component required for on-die HBM, I belive): http://www.linkedin.com/pub/richie-chan/8a/999/656 (yeah, I googled linkedin, SeronXstyle )

 

[colinp]

Wasn't Basilisk an early code name for Kaveri?

 

[jdwii]

The current boxed coolers from AMD suck. Plain and simple. From the times of the Athlon X2 (Toledo, in particular) I have to say I was impressed on the quality for them. All the way up to the Phenom II 965 C I had, I was fairly happy with the boxed cooler as a *decent" and *sufficient* option for them. But from what I have seen from the 3850 (Llano, 100W) and FX4300 (125W, IIRC), I've been disappointed to the point of not even counting on the stocked cooling solution and go with something custom/aftermarket by default.

That's that.

So, what about Carrizio? Any new updates on it? Any leaks? I'm very interested in seeing what the magic pixie dust from Tonga (Radeon 285) for the bandwidth brings to the table.

Cheers!

I have to say i was sad when i found out you can actually use the heat-sink on intel boxed setup's just fine even haswell at least for their locked I5(oh and it doesn't ever sound like a hand vacuum).

 

[jdwii]

(No one uses the stock cooler anyway do they?)

Yup, only 99% people I know

Really? Even most HP and Dell PC's i take a part have their own heat-sink that isn't Amd's.

Different culture. Where I live when you want to buy a desktop you just go to someone who knows something about computers and ask about specification. With list of parts you go to computer shop, give them that list and they build it for you (less than 20 euros, sometimes free). Very few people buy HP or Dell's desktops, because they are usually more expensive.

Huh? You live in Japan or something? One thing people here(U.S) could really benefit from.

 

[szatkus]

Huh? You live in Japan or something? One thing people here(U.S) could really benefit from.

No, Poland. Cost-optimazation is a habit after PRL. In 80s with money you could buy vodka or vinegar. Food, apartaments, cars etc. were rationed. My generation (born 1989) were learned to minimize costs, being smart and educated (wasting public money in most cases, US' paid education isn't a bad idea). Next generation is spoiled (parents want to give them everything they want) as hell, iPhone as a present for First Communion isn't uncommon.

 

[palladin9479]

(No one uses the stock cooler anyway do they?)

Yup, only 99% people I know

Really? Even most HP and Dell PC's i take a part have their own heat-sink that isn't Amd's.

That's because OEM's don't get manufacturer provided HSF's. OEM's purchase CPU's in bulk, typically in large trays consisting of hundreds of CPU's each. There isn't some poor Chinese lady at dell opening AMD / INTEL boxed processors and sorting the CPU / HSF. The practice has mostly been squashed but awhile back you used to be able to buy "OEM" CPU's and they could come in a little plastic carrier without any HSF, documentation or warranty. They were cheaper and a favorite of system builders and enthusiasts. Same with many of the older graphics cards, it's where the term "whitebox" came from since it would just be packaged in a plain white box without any accessories or software.

Anyhow the HSF's inside the retain packaging are not designed by Intel or AMD, they are contracted out to third party manufacturers to provide. Intel is simply willing to pay more for a better quality while AMD goes with the absolute cheapest bulk provider possible. Being a value brand and operating on such a tight budget I would expect them to do as such.

 

[jdwii]

I know that i was just stating that the majority don't use the standard heat-sink when they buy FX CPU's

 

[anxiousinfusion]

More price cuts to current APUs.. this is really indicative of a nearing launch http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/amd-to-drop-prices-of-a-series-kaveri-apus-to-discontinue-a10-7700k/

 

[de5_Roy]

Wasn't Basilisk an early code name for Kaveri?

iirc basilisk was supposed to come out after kaveri. but the exc. based apus were supposed to be called carrizo, which was "leaked" earler than basilisk's codename. i don't know about basilisk's specs.
rory read and co. more or less buried kaveri and laters' codenames under arm projects. and.. glofo's inability to fab a decent chip or be a decent foundry partner also played a part.
another codename that got buried was nolan - supposed successor of ka-beema. nowadays zen and k12 are all the er.. rage...

@jdwii: store-built pcs sometimes cost less because those guys usually charge less. however, you may lose warranty coverage for the whole pc or some oem-specific aftersales services and softwares. upsides - less service charge, you can save 100 bucks equiv. on the o.s. this is highly dependent on individual market though.

 

[jdwii]

FX 8350 is doing horrible in far cry 4 competing with an I3 and Amd is performing better on a Nvidia game?
http://www.techspot.com/review/917-far-cry-4-benchmarks/page6.html

 

[szatkus]

Wasn't Basilisk an early code name for Kaveri?

iirc basilisk was supposed to come out after kaveri. but the exc. based apus were supposed to be called carrizo, which was "leaked" earler than basilisk's codename. i don't know about basilisk's specs.
rory read and co. more or less buried kaveri and laters' codenames under arm projects. and.. glofo's inability to fab a decent chip or be a decent foundry partner also played a part.
another codename that got buried was nolan - supposed successor of ka-beema. nowadays zen and k12 are all the er.. rage....

Who said that there is only one XV APU in pipeline? Especially that 8350rocks said Carrizo is mobile only.
Also it could be semi-custom, we'll see.

 

[szatkus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6zX2IqBI7A

What the hell? Carrizo and Carrizo-L in one package? Is it some kind of big.LITTLE?

 

[gamerk316]

FX 8350 is doing horrible in far cry 4 competing with an I3 and Amd is performing better on a Nvidia game?
http://www.techspot.com/review/917-far-cry-4-benchmarks/page6.html

What I find most interesting is in page 5: Both the i7-4770k and FX-8350 gain performance almost linearly with clockspeed. This indicates, even OCd to 4.5GHz, the game is still being limited to some extent by the CPU. The Intel chips are clustered together less because of a GPU bottleneck, and more because all their chips offer comparable performance.

What's also interesting is the rate of increase. The i7 is getting about 3 FPS per 500MHz. The FX is getting about 2 FPS per 500MHz. That's the IPC difference between the two showing up again, and accounts for all of Intels performance lead.

In the end, it looks like two strong cores simply outperform 8 weak ones. I'd be interested to see latency graphs, as the i3 is likely a lot less stable performance wise, but it's quite clear where Cry Engine 3's performance characteristics lie at this point.

 

[gamerk316]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6zX2IqBI7A

What the hell? Carrizo and Carrizo-L in one package? Is it some kind of big.LITTLE?

Makes sense; makes the chip more attractive compared to something ARM based.

Still, AMD missed the mobile boat by about 5 years. With GPUs in development that offer near desktop performance, and with ARM chips ahead on performance/power, and with all the software already being ARM based, there's very little reason to bother with X86 on mobile.