AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

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griptwister

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Well, after seeing all this, it looks like they might be considering selling the company by 2014. I'd like to see Microsoft take control of the company... maybe, as long as OG_Bill doesn't hike up the prices.
 
I don't see MS being interested in purchasing AMD. At this point in time the only company that I can think of that would be interested in AMD CPU division is VIA Technologies. Regarding the Radeon brand, I'm not sure at the moment what company would be interested.

Too bad AMD is going through tough times. While the last AMD CPU I've bought was the Athlon XP 2600+, I have been buying their Radeons.
 

noob2222

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For desktop use, ARM is "fast enough". Sure, gamers would get left out cold, but thats a small percentage of the market.

Also, WinRT has been out HOW LONG now? Really bad argument there...

guess I should have specified "configurable motherboards" rather than assuming someone would try to classify any pcb as a motherboard.

There aren't in the market.


See above, ARM isn't fast enough to run a 7970.

So? Only .0000001% of the market needs that much horsepower. Gamers do not drive markets.


seems anything that has to do with any new software is impossible, but only to certain people. x86 or ARM is already in the works and with their modular design it should be possible to implement alu+fpu+arm on one chip.

Two totally different things. The APU+ARM combo basically has the chip INTERNALLY take control of processing for a bit. Thats totally different from having an OS that is capable of switching between two totally different instruction sets and memory architectures. It CAN'T be done. If it could, you'd see Linux and other server OS's have one kernel that supported every CPU architecture, rather then several kernels, one compiled against a specific CPU arch. Hence why WinRT is a different product (and will fail due to lack of S/W support).
 
Speaking of AMD's discrete GPU business - from http://seekingalpha.com/article/1022121-amd-cannot-survive-the-graphics-war-like-this?source=msn

Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) is in serious trouble. In the most recent quarter, the firm swung to an operating loss in its core CPU/APU division to the tune of $114M. This was due to a combination of inventory write-downs on stale inventory, a drop in market share from 18.8% to 16.1%, and lower average selling prices across the board. Intel (INTC) has proven that it is the clear leader here, and given the broad industry shift to more efficient designs in everything from notebooks to big-iron servers, it would take a significant misstep on the chip giant's part for AMD to even come close to building a comparable solution, let alone a better one.

However, AMD -- thanks to its $5.4B acquisition of ATI Technologies -- has traditionally had a strong hand in the discrete graphics business. Discrete graphics chips are used in gaming computers, professional workstations, and even in supercomputers (albeit slightly modified to be floating point co-processors rather than graphics cards). In this space, there's only one competitor: Nvidia (NVDA). Generally speaking, Nvidia has traditionally been the market share leader but the gap between them was generally not too wide (usually a 40-45% share for AMD and 55-60% for Nvidia).

However, the recent market share reports confirm that the balance of power is worsening for AMD.

Q3 2012 - Things Are Looking Lopsided

In Q3 2012, according to the latest data, AMD's share in desktop computers dropped to 35.7% from 40.7%, and in notebooks, it saw share plummet from 44.8% to 34.2%. Of course, as there are only two players in the industry -- it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where those missing percentage points went.

In the quarter, net revenue for graphics was $342M, with net income a startlingly low $18M. In contrast, Nvidia's gaming graphics division saw sales of $739M and an operating income of $193M. Nvidia's professional solutions division -- which is broken out separately for Nvidia but lumped in with graphics for AMD -- turned in a solid $220M in sales and operating income of $100M.

The balance of market share and profits in the graphics business is starting to look eerily like that between Intel and AMD in the CPU space. This has very serious implications.

So, What Does This Mean?

In a nutshell, this means that Nvidia simply has a lot more money to reinvest in its core business. That means stronger R&D, which leads to dramatically better products, better marketing of said products, and a much healthier competitive landscape from the perspective of Nvidia.

An example of this was actually seen with the latest generation of graphics cards. AMD put out its biggest, baddest Radeon 7970 with a 365mm^2 die size and for the first quarter of 2012, managed to take the performance and performance/watt lead with its products. However, Nvidia was able to successfully compete on performance and performance per watt with a chip that only weighed in at 294mm^2. With a 19% smaller die size (this means cheaper to produce), Nvidia was able to sell cards at the same price point as its rival. This meant better margins and higher operating profits than its peer.

Explaining AMD's Market Share Decline

Many will say, "well, AMD's products perform similarly to the Nvidia products in the same price point." Surprisingly enough, they would be correct. On paper and in most gaming benchmarks, AMD's products are extremely competitive across the board. The gap in terms of performance that we see on the PC processor side is simply not there. So what's going on?

Well, it really comes down to a number of things on the consumer side:

Brand equity - Additional "perks" that are not available from AMD cards (3D Vision, PhysX, etc.)
On the brand equity side of things, Nvidia simply takes the cake. Why? Nvidia, first off, has a number of programs and promotions that help customers feel like they are part of a legitimate ecosystem. For example:

GeForce.com - This is a site that Nvidia keeps up that has blogs, game demos, driver updates, promotions for the latest games, contests to win prizes, and community support forums. AMD's Radeon support site offers nowhere near the level of user experience and support. It's also not called "Radeon.com" or anything like that.

The Way It's Meant To Be Played - Nvidia's marketing campaign -- The Way It's Meant To Be Played -- which essentially acts as a "seal of approval" from the game publisher, acts as a powerful "reminder" to gamers that in order to get the full experience of the game, one needs Nvidia hardware.
On the latter point, Nvidia's strong developer relations and software teams do actually enable a few fundamental features critical to the user experience that AMD does not offer. For example:

PhysX - This enables GPU-accelerated physics effects in games that are programmed to support them. Nvidia's software team works with game developers to smoothly and seamlessly get these things integrated. Gamers who want the best generally don't want to have to keep checkbox features unchecked, which is why the scales often tip in favor of Nvidia.

3D Vision - This allows for stereoscopic 3D in PC games, provided that one owns a 3D Vision Kit (a pair of 3D glasses) and the right monitor. A niche market, but something gamers will consider when plunking down hundreds of dollars for their next generation graphics cards. Nvidia works with the game developers to make sure this is implemented in many of the major titles.

Okay, What About In HPC/Professional?

In the professional space, Nvidia is eating AMD's lunch because it simply builds the better mousetrap with much better software/driver support. In a recent review of AMD's latest FirePro professional workstation cards, the verdict -- especially compared to Nvidia's products -- was not favorable:

To be perfectly candid, we found the W8000 and W9000's performance disappointing, and their proposed price/performance ratio isn't so hot either. If AMD had kept to its previous price structure, the W9000 would've slipped in nicely at $2500 and the W8000 at $1149. At $4000 and $1600 against the Quadro 6000 (also $4000) and the Quadro 5000 ($1849) though, AMD's prospects at this time aren't very good. The situation may change with future driver revisions if AMD is able to wring more performance from the GCN architecture in professional applications, but the current state of the software is what it is and the W8000 and W9000's performance didn't scale as expected.

Professionals using these cards to make serious money will not mess around with second best. And, unfortunately for AMD, that's precisely the position that it is in.

But The Next Generation Of Products Can Fix This, Right?

This brings us to the next question: can the next generation of products tip the scales? Well, it's absolutely not too late to try to change course and really buckle down and focus on the graphics space. All of the puzzle pieces are there. The problem, though, is that AMD is spreading itself too thin to be truly effective at anything that it attempts. It doesn't have enough time or money to try to sow a million seeds and hope something starts sprouting.

AMD is in the process of axing its staff as we speak in an attempt to cut costs. While it lays off engineers (and I'm sure the very best and brightest that remain are giving Intel, Qualcomm (QCOM), Nvidia, Samsung (SSNLF.PK), and others a call looking for new jobs), it is simultaneously trying to develop two distinct lines of X86 processor cores, an ARM (ARMH) based system-on-chip for servers, X86 SoCs based on the two aforementioned lines of cores for everything from entry level PCs to servers, and next generation graphics. All while running either money-losing or barely profitable businesses!

Simply put, AMD is trying to do too much with too little, and it needs to buckle down and focus on something. Unfortunately, discrete graphics and HPC accelerators don't seem to be what management -- or Wall Street -- wants. Even if it's the one place where AMD could truly bring the fight to Nvidia.

Nvidia is quickly about to become the Intel of discrete graphics in every sense of the word, and I suspect that the firm will continue to bleed AMD's market share dry until that $18M operating profit swings to an operating loss. And when the discrete graphics part of AMD stops innovating because it has simply run out of money, then this will not only have serious repercussions for its competitive position in the GPU space, but in the integrated graphics space, where Intel is doubling graphics performance with each new processor. There will be no low end for AMD to retreat to since it faces competition from Intel and its own APU products down there.

Things do not look good for AMD in the discrete graphics space. It lost the X86 CPU space by falling too far behind, and it is now about to lose the graphics war for good if it does not continue to innovate where it counts by developing products that carry high margins and sell well. Shifting focus to ARM-servers with SeaMicro fabric all sound great... until you realize that this will likely be a super cutthroat, low-margin business that will be swallowed whole with Intel's upcoming "Avoton" server SoC. Built with Intels' very own, license-fee-free, 22nm cores.

At least Nvidia doesn't have a manufacturing process lead.

Should mention that S/A stated that as far as supercomputer GPUs go, NV has something like 90% of the market with Tesla compared to AMD's 10%.
 
Caveat in the "super HPC computers". AMD just released GCN which is in fact better than Kepler, but slightly worse than what big Kepler is. For a "first try" in that market, 10% is actually good IMO.

Now, the rest of the article is very pessimistic to call it the best. AMD has Eyefinity (which is actually a good thing for them) and the "Gaming Evolved" which is the same idea to nVidia's TWIMTBP, I think.

I wonder why kick the graphics division when they are doing fine. Maybe abusing the panic around AMD? hahaha

Cheers!
 
i've been saying(begrudgingly) that amd has competitve products but nvidia always ends up making more money.... okay i might have plagiarized that from anandtech.... :whistle:
i mostly agree with that except for a few parts.
amd does have something similar to twimbtp - gaming evolved. it's new and still evolving (geddit?).
amd has 3d alternative too. and it's open to others unlike nvidia's.
having seperate 'radeon.com' isn't that important. amd has 'amd vision'.
eyefinity. nvidia has nothing on it.

now on to the stuff i agree with.
amd does have worse driver support. they have consistently under-delivered with 7000 series drivers right from the launch. it took them too long to fix issues. they're releasing good driver only recently... almost at the end of the cycle. that old, pathetic excuse of having less resources is not gonna cut it, it's about properly using the resources. eyefinity came out of those 'less' resources.
 
^ I think the telling part of the article is what I underlined - AMD only netted some $18M from GPU last quarter, whereas NV's profit was ~11 times that amount. So NV can afford more R&D, plus AFAIK they are not cannibalizing their engineering corps to save $$...
 

if those figures in the article are correct, it just sucks for amd. this time they had time advantage, price advantage, better supply etc.
nvidia won't sit on their asses or mismanage themselves into oblivion. they'll certainly push for better products.
i partly blame all those people who bought gtx 550ti :p. i never figured out why that p.o.c. sold so well. imo that card was the worst card from fermi lineup.
 

anxiousinfusion

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This has been a slowly forming misconception on these forums. Yes, gamers are not the largest percentage of computer users but you have to keep in mind that games are a multi billion dollar industry. It would be naive to say that gaming doesn't affect any of the market.
 


When I was shopping around for my new build back in May, I had about decided to get a 680 from NV. Luckily for me NV's launch was pretty much on paper - nothing available at close to the MSRP. Amazon had them with $100+ markup, but I decided to get the factory oc'd HD 7970 instead. It's been a great video card - certainly no dropped frames playing any games so far..

My last 2 video cards have been from AMD :).. I would be concerned to see them go under or bought out.
 

blackkstar

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No, AMD merging AM3+ and FM2 is the wrong way. They should merge server socket and desktop enthusiast socket. FX is already a modified Opteron, why not just not bin it differently, unlock it, and sell it to a different market? This would also open up the AMD enthusiast market to 16 core Opterons which could be overclocked, and it would cost AMD less money than maintaining AM3+. Just tell the motherboard manufacturers to make server socket boards for enthusiasts and that's the end. Keep FX branding and keep the 3 module units around, and offer locked Opterons on the same platform. If a 4 module Piledriver is roughly equal to a 4 core Intel in multithread with hyperthreading, an 8 module Opteron you could overclock would do extremely well vs a six core Intel in multi-thread. And it's the same damn die as an FX 8350 yet it cost more than twice as much. It's a market AMD is missing out on by keeping AM3+ around.

Also, Nvidia buying AMD would be the worst thing for the market. It'd be worse than AMD going out of business. Nvidia would have a monopoly on enthusiast GPUs, and look at the GTX 600 situation. They are capable of selling an inferior product at higher prices than the competition and to still out sell and out profit them.

If we were left to Nvidia competing with Intel in x86, we'd basically see Nvidia overcharging for AMD FX quality parts and people buying them just because it's Nvidia. It'd probably be branded with things like, "THE WAY ITS MEANT TO BE PLAYED WITH NVIDIA PLATFORM!" and people would eat it up.

And of course we'd see something like PhysX magically performing way better on Nvidia CPUs while it gets handicapped on Intel.

It would be fun to watch Nvidia and Intel fight, but the fight would probably be around who can market the best and who can gimp the other the hardest, not about making the best CPU.

The bottom line isn't that AMD makes bad chips, it's that they can't market them. If they try, the press lambastes them. They have a huge stigma attached. First, it was the TLB bug, then it was Bulldozer losing to previous gen. Then there's driver FUD and all sorts of other types of FUD attached to AMD.

I really do think Intel or Nvidia would have no problem selling Piledriver CPUs at all. The problem is that AMD has been beaten to death via marketing since the mid 00s, and they don't have the resources to cope with it. What are they going to do against FUD like "the drivers suck!"? Release ads that say they don't? They've already tried to get around it by improving their drivers greatly (which they have), and the stigma still sticks.
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AMD's biggest problem isn't x86 performance or GPU performance or drivers or anything, it's entirely their marketing and vis-a-vis their management.
 

you should learn by now nvidia doesn't fund R&D, they spend all their money on TWIMTBP and advertizing.
 



They are valued at about $400 million USD which is 1/4 the size of AMD. Not enough money to directly acquire AMD. However, should AMD be liquidated, then it is possible for them to get financing to acquire AMD's APU patents.
 

Cazalan

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The same month AMD announces getting into the ARM market, a company 24 times bigger decides to get out of the smart phone/tablet space with their product.

They analyzed the bottom line and determined the profit margins were too thin to be worth the effort, and they already had the products developed.

That company, Texas Instruments, just laid off 1700 employees to scale down their ARM involvement.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/14/technology/texas-instruments-layoffs/index.html

AMD thinking they can make headway into the ARM market this late to the game truly is a pipe dream. If the company that produced the first silicon transistor thinks that market is too competitive, with vastly more resources, what chance does AMD have?

They've gone from competing with Intel to competing with Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, Google, NVidia. Like David vs Goliath cubed.
 
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