News AMD Reverses Course, Will Enable Zen 3 Support on B450 and X470 Motherboards

[InvalidError]

However my question really is will they make a version of Zen 3+/4 that will work only in 500 series chipset?

If there is a Zen 3+, it won't have any other socket to go into.

For Zen 4, that will be new socket only, doubt AMD wants to continue having to make more complex CPU substrates than they'd like to longer than absolutely necessary. What you may or may not get is backward compatibility with DDR4 to let motherboard manufacturers pick between DDR4 or DDR5 slots depending on memory pricing, performance, availability and giving people some options to reuse memory.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Irreversible BIOS upgrade that sacrifices compatibility with most CPUs B450 was intended for to enable compatibility with Zen 2. This is going to get awkward on the used market and people who upgrade their 4000-series CPU from a 400-series to a 500-series motherboard and want to put their now unsupported old CPU back into the 400-series board.

The "irreversible" bit still gets me -- what can't you downgrade to an old BIOS if you want? I get that's a pretty niche market, but there's no reason it shouldn't be technically feasible. Probably just to limit support calls and such. I mean, it's flash memory, you should be able to reprogram the EPROM to whatever it was at launch if you really wanted to do so.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

"AMD's updates also mark the end of the line for 400-series motherboards: AMD will not support future processors on the platform. The company also confirmed that Ryzen 4000 will land this year. "

The way this is written makes it sound like the 500 series will see cpu's after Zen 3.

I think AMD is just making it explicitly clear that nothing future is planned for pre-500 series boards. But I think Zen 4 is probably going to move to DDR5, which would mean a new socket and platform regardless. Unless AMD does a transition with support for both DDR4 and DDR5 (I hope not!)

 

[refillable]

Many people are going to get screwed by the mix of boards that have and haven't been updated, can and cannot be downgraded. It'll be absolutely critical for sellers to accurately list the exact BIOS version that boards will be shipping with.

Based on forum posts by people living in poorer countries, sounds like just about all of it in many cases.

I am from Indonesia, and that's not how things work here. Used hardware resellers are commonly very knowledgeable people. So are their buyers. People who doesn't know much will seek help. Assuming that it's confusing for them (and for the potential buyers) is nonsense. It takes just two sentences to explain what the board is compatible with. e.g.

"Supplied with BIOS that supports ryzen 3000 and above. Ryzen 2000 and below needs BIOS ver. xxx."

 

[InvalidError]

The "irreversible" bit still gets me -- what can't you downgrade to an old BIOS if you want?

If AMD wants to prevent BIOS updates to Zen 3 unless you are a confirmed owner of a Zen 3 CPU to make sure you do have a Zen 3 CPU to put in once you lose support for older chips, I wouldn't be surprised if the downgrade was locked out to the exact opposite reason: prevent you from losing Zen 3 support in case you no longer have a supported Zen/Zen+/Zen 2 CPU to flash the BIOS back up. With different BIOS versions axing support for different subsets of older CPUs, downgrading can be a minefield too. Imagine downgrading to use a Zen CPU but accidentally using a more recent BIOS that axed Zen CPUs to support Zen 2 APUs. Now you have nothing to unbrick that board with.

Unless AMD does a transition with support for both DDR4 and DDR5 (I hope not!)

Intel has no problem doing so, Coffee Lake can still unofficially use DDR3 and DDR3L and some Chinese manufacturers make boards that do exactly that, some of which supporting everything from 6000-series through 9000-series on the same board and chipset. AMD could put a DDR4+5 memory controller on its AM5 IOD and let motherboard manufacturers decide what memory slots to put on their boards. Next-gen memory has always been grossly overpriced and the performance gains slim to none for the first year or two, making DDR5 the only option on AM5 may not go over well.

 

[mitch074]

Based on forum posts by people living in poorer countries, sounds like just about all of it in many cases. The APAC region is so desperate for cheap PCs that off-brand manufacturers make motherboards from recycled components because they cannot afford new sockets, chipsets and other major components.

I would suspect that the number of boards actually flashed with one of these firmwares will be low enough to simply drop them in the 'not working' pile. Moreover, if I'm not mistaken those dealing with those computers use better tools than the built in flashing software, and reprogramming the whole chip with a 'release' firmware may just be standard to them.

 

[Makaveli]

So you are wondering why not X370 B350?

I would imagine they need a unique AGESA BIOS for them?

Hmm no my question doesn't say anything about X300 or X400 series chipsets.

 

[InvalidError]

Hmm no my question doesn't say anything about X300 or X400 series chipsets.

300-series boards were plagued with so many issues that AMD didn't want to support those even for Zen+ until it got its arms twisted enough to convince it otherwise and a greater number of those never got a Zen 2 update. I doubt there is any amount of further twisting 300-series owner could do to convince AMD to change its mind there.

 

[nofanneeded]

Irreversible BIOS upgrade that sacrifices compatibility with most CPUs B450 was intended for to enable compatibility with Zen 2. This is going to get awkward on the used market and people who upgrade their 4000-series CPU from a 400-series to a 500-series motherboard and want to put their now unsupported old CPU back into the 400-series board.

There is nothing called irreversible Bios in real life , Ebay will be flooded with $1 replacement bios chips for these boards ...

And if you know what you are doing you can easily use a Bios programmer and and empty bios chip and make a backup copy of your older bios.

Dont worry no one is going to be screwed 2 to 3 years ahead ... they will still buy and sell them lke hotcake on ebay,.

 

[DMAN999]

Irreversible BIOS upgrade that sacrifices compatibility with most CPUs B450 was intended for to enable compatibility with Zen 2. This is going to get awkward on the used market and people who upgrade their 4000-series CPU from a 400-series to a 500-series motherboard and want to put their now unsupported old CPU back into the 400-series board.

I seriously doubt that it will be irreversible.
AMD and Asus both said that my B450-F could Not be flashed back to an older Ryzen 2000 BIOS after updating to a Ryzen 3000 BIOS.
But it can absolutely be flashed back using AFUDOS from a Bootable USB drive.
So I am 99.9% sure it the will be the same for the new Ryzen 4000 BIOS.

 

[alextheblue]

I'm going to file this under "there's just no pleasing everyone". Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I also am not convinced you won't be able to flash an older BIOS, although that is admittedly much easier to wrangle if your board supports CPU-less flash.

Say that again 2-3 years down the road when these boards end up on the second-hand market. Many people are going to get screwed by the mix of boards that have and haven't been updated, can and cannot be downgraded. It'll be absolutely critical for sellers to accurately list the exact BIOS version that boards will be shipping with.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Only a tiny minority of 400 series users are going to jump through these hurdles in the first place. Those who do are now maxed out with Zen 3 (or Zen3+ maybe). So when it's time to upgrade to a future incompatible CPU, they have to get a new board and CPU anyway.

Thus the solution is self evident: Sell them together. Sellers and buyers can live in harmony and frolic in the fields of eBay.

 

[alextheblue]

If there is a Zen 3+, it won't have any other socket to go into.

I mean there's no technical reason they couldn't build an AM5 CPU with Zen 3+, say if Zen 4 fell behind. They did something similar for initial AM4 boards with Bristol Ridge (Excavator+). The way AMD has been executing lately, I find it very unlikely, but it is possible.

 

[InvalidError]

I mean there's no technical reason they couldn't build an AM5 CPU with Zen 3+, say if Zen 4 fell behind.

I can think of a few technical hurdles:
1- the AM5 socket specs may not be finalized long enough in advance to allow that, doubt AMD wants to repeat the 300-series fiasco with far too many immature launch-day boards that were nearly impossible to get to boot and took months to sort out
2- AM5 chipsets don't exist, so AMD would need to create another lineup to go with it or at least re-brand 500-series to clearly delineate generations so people don't get confused between 600/AM4 and 600/AM5 assuming there are 600-series chipsets coming for Zen 3 / Ryzen 4000
3- Zen 4 / AM5 are supposed to have Thunderbolt / USB4 and it would suck for AMD's Thunderbolt / USB4 implementation got crippled by compromises made in the rush to push AM5 out for Zen 3+
4- there won't be much DDR5 in 2021 and what little of it will be available to consumers will likely be too expensive for the mainstream, defeating AM5's single largest core benefit
5- that will be one more generation to stuff inside AM5 AGESA for a half-step generation. After AMD's run-ins with backwards/forwards compatibility on 300-series and 400-series boards, I'd be extremely wary of starting a new platform on a half-step product

The best time to AMD to launch AM5 is when Zen 4 is ready. Start as close to a clean slate as possible to avoid repeating mistakes and being stuck with them through the platform's entire lifespan.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

300-series boards were plagued with so many issues that AMD didn't want to support those even for Zen+ until it got its arms twisted enough to convince it otherwise and a greater number of those never got a Zen 2 update. I doubt there is any amount of further twisting 300-series owner could do to convince AMD to change its mind there.

Gonna be honest, my B350 is not even a high-end board and still, it has handled multiple Zen CPUs and even a Zen+ just fine. 3200mhz ram no issues even with multiple kits tested, even got an overclock to 3466mhz with the newer kit. I even am running a 3rd generation supported bios on it and have full confidence it will run a 3300x no issues when i upgrade.

I think these known issues really were worked out quickly.

 

[alextheblue]

The best time to AMD to launch AM5 is when Zen 4 is ready. Start as close to a clean slate as possible to avoid repeating mistakes and being stuck with them through the platform's entire lifespan.

Hurdles, yes. But none of that is insurmountable, and again it would only even be considered if ther was a major delay with Zen 4.

Also, you're always going to have to deal with mistakes. You could buy an Intel Comet Lake platform, only to discover future PCIe 4.0 support is very hit or miss, for example.

 

[Zizo007]

I hope manufacturers release a 4th gen bios for my X370.

 

[InvalidError]

Gonna be honest, my B350 is not even a high-end board and still, it has handled multiple Zen CPUs and even a Zen+ just fine.

My first experience with Ryzen 1700 and X370 is getting accused of frying parts by the computer store my client got parts from until the shop built an identical setup and couldn't get it to boot for over an hour of parts-swapping before they found a combination that worked so the BIOS could be updated.

Also, you're always going to have to deal with mistakes. You could buy an Intel Comet Lake platform, only to discover future PCIe 4.0 support is very hit or miss, for example.

There may "always be mistakes" but there is such a thing as unnecessary risks. As for Intel, despite all of its flaws, Intel is not in the habit of promising things it cannot deliver aside from 10nm.

 

[Alvar "Miles" Udell]

And yet again it seems that us users of X370 motherboards, those of us who had the audacity to support who was at the time a ridiculed near bankrupt company still putting out much slower chips than Intel (and will not regain the lead until Zen 3) and made to buy even more expensive RAM than their Intel counterparts due to very fickle compatibility get bent over the barrel and taken up the tailpipe...

Remind me again why I support AMD?

 

[NightHawkRMX]

You got 3 years of cpu support. Thats about the same as intel if not more. I don't see how they wronged 300 series owners.

 

[rumple99]

People with b450 & zen2 are unlikely to upgrade to zen3 anyway. A 17% IPC gain in the new generation is likely to have negligible increased performance results

 

[Alvar "Miles" Udell]

You got 3 years of cpu support. Thats about the same as intel if not more. I don't see how they wronged 300 series owners.

"Support through 2020" was advertised, yet we aren't getting support through 2020, that's a pretty clearcut wrong, no matter how much AMD tries to erase the past and change "through" to "until".

 

[InvalidError]

People with b450 & zen2 are unlikely to upgrade to zen3 anyway. A 17% IPC gain in the new generation is likely to have negligible increased performance results

Although I wouldn't bother with less than a +100% potential throughput bump between extra cores, high clocks and increased IPC, plenty of people around here have upgraded from 1 to 1+ and 1+ to 2, so 2 to 3 isn't that much of a stretch.

Also keep in mind that Zen 3 has only one octa-core CCX per CCD with a unified 32MB or possibly larger L3 cache. Based on how no sustainable amount of overclocking on the Ryzen 3100 can help it pass the stock 3300X in most multi-threaded software, Zen 3's monolithic CCX may significantly outperform Zen 2 in software that thrives on (very-)low-latency inter-process communications. This alone is going to be reason enough for many people to upgrade.

 

[vinay2070]

Good to know AMD worked this out. I have a msi 450 max board and was thinking of upgrading from 3700X if 4000 series really have good IPC. 4700X coupled with a 3080 on 1440P would be awesome!

 

[watzupken]

Irreversible BIOS upgrade that sacrifices compatibility with most CPUs B450 was intended for to enable compatibility with Zen 2. This is going to get awkward on the used market and people who upgrade their 4000-series CPU from a 400-series to a 500-series motherboard and want to put their now unsupported old CPU back into the 400-series board.

I feel at least the option is there for people that want to upgrade to Ryzen 4000 series. With the limitations with the EEPROM size, I feel AMD is doing its best to accomodate considering it is the motherboard makers that chose to use a smaller EEPROM. Generally only the high end boards come with a 32mb EEPROM, while the low/mid end boards uses 16mb. I don't think it adds substantial cost to the motherboard build.

 

[watzupken]

I don't understand why all this hype about BIOS. I mean, I know but there is simple solution. Most users do not know what BIOS is nor access it and other use BIOS few times in their lifetime. BIOS must be as simple as possible, no fancy and useless graphics no one uses. Every PC must boot with default settings and few most used settings should be available, eg RAID, XMP. Everything else needs to be an app or give user possibility to create his own fancy BIOS for specific CPU(s).
My bigger problem with BIOS (Gigabyte) is that almost every BIOS update destroys current settings and I must go thru every one and enable it. Loading stored setting does not work always.
Of course, BIOS update without CPU is mandatory and does not cost much - chip 3 cent microcontroller with USB stack.

Most people that don't know anything about BIOS or even on PC hardware will not be bothered about upgrading. People who upgrade their CPUs from my understanding likely will need to flash their BIOS.

Also, BIOS is not something that you should update often, as the saying to not fix anything that is not broken. It potentially will destroy your saved settings because some of the settings may not run stable with the new BIOS.