News AMD Reverses Course, Will Enable Zen 3 Support on B450 and X470 Motherboards

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

watzupken

Reputable
Mar 16, 2020
1,032
525
6,070
Say that again 2-3 years down the road when these boards end up on the second-hand market. Many people are going to get screwed by the mix of boards that have and haven't been updated, can and cannot be downgraded. It'll be absolutely critical for sellers to accurately list the exact BIOS version that boards will be shipping with.
This is a true concern, but as a PC manufacturer, are you looking to please your direct customer, or will you want to look after everyone, i.e. even second hand buyers? The responsibility to notify potential buyers in the second hand market is with the existing seller, not AMD.

Again like I mentioned, there is no way to please everyone. AMD probably foresee issues and chose to cut the 4xx chipsets off from Zen 3. But since so many people are making noise, they responded positively, though also provided warnings about the risks. If someone chooses to go ahead and flash the new BIOS, it is his/her choice. The option is there.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
The responsibility to notify potential buyers in the second hand market is with the existing seller, not AMD.
The long-term damage to reputation when people buy stuff that should work together on paper but does not because of a BIOS update slipping through cracks will still be on AMD. Sellers have limits on how many hoops they are willing to jump through before calling it quits too.
 

DMAN999

Dignified
Ambassador
It's good news they have changed their stance on this issue. I doubt I will upgrade soon though as my 3600 seems more than capable.
I agree 100%.
I will probably upgrade to a Ryzen 4000 CPU on my Asus ROG Strix X470-F eventually BUT for now (and probably the next year or two) my 3700x does everything I need it to and does it well. :D
 

kdw75

Distinguished
Jun 18, 2008
136
4
18,685
Why are people so damned cheap when it comes to desktop computers??? Buying a new motherboard for $300 every 3 or 4 years shouldn't causing you that much pain.
 
Sep 13, 2019
71
4
35
im so going to let my 1600 retire, not decided yet though if i should upgrade just the cpu or sell cpu mobo and ram all together and buy whole new setup on b550.
 
Irreversible BIOS upgrade that sacrifices compatibility with most CPUs B450 was intended for to enable compatibility with Zen 2. This is going to get awkward on the used market and people who upgrade their 4000-series CPU from a 400-series to a 500-series motherboard and want to put their now unsupported old CPU back into the 400-series board.
What about ROM/BIOS writers, that should surely work.
 

Diddly

Distinguished
"The select beta BIOSes will enable a one-way upgrade path for AMD Ryzen Processors with “Zen 3,” coming later this year. Flashing back to an older BIOS version will not be supported. " - if the beta BIOS doesn't work you can't go back :-(
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
What about ROM/BIOS writers, that should surely work.
Anything is possible with infinite means. The process is more complicated than just overwriting the SPI flash with a new ROM since board-specific data needs to be preserved and, according to AMD's AMA with GN, the BIOS layout has changed so the update process needs to move stuff around. Very few people even among the sub-1% who may be capable of using an SPI-flash programmer would know how to pull that off correctly.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
With the limitations with the EEPROM size, I feel AMD is doing its best to accomodate considering it is the motherboard makers that chose to use a smaller EEPROM.
From what AMD and board manufactuers have told GN, Zen and Zen+ CPUs actually cannot address SPI flash beyond the first 16MB, so all the backwards compatibility AGESA and BIOS code and data has to fit in there no matter how much larger the chip may be or the board won't boot with older CPUs.
 
"The select beta BIOSes will enable a one-way upgrade path for AMD Ryzen Processors with “Zen 3,” coming later this year. Flashing back to an older BIOS version will not be supported. " - if the beta BIOS doesn't work you can't go back :-(
"Will not be supported" does not necessarily mean the same thing as "cannot go back". The wording is kind of vague, and may simply mean that they will not provide official support for it if things go wrong. Perhaps that will be up to motherboard manufacturers. If I had to guess, at the very least I would expect boards supporting CPU-less BIOS flashing, like many of MSI's B450 models, might allow for it.

Just do the smart thing and buy x570--or B550. Skip all of the hassle this will entail.
This is more for people upgrading existing systems. Once B550 launches, there probably won't be much point in going with a B450 or X470 motherboard for a new system with a 3000-series or newer processor. And if one has one of those boards in their system already, there would arguably be more hassle and cost involved with replacing that than simply upgrading a BIOS and dropping in the new CPU.

There may be a Zen 3+ in 2021 since Zen 4 is only slated for 2022.
It's possible, though it could just be that Zen4 may be coming in early 2022. Each generation of Ryzen has lasted more than a year so far, with the 3000-series launching almost 15 months after the 2000 series. If the 4000-series comes around 15 months later, and the 5000-series another 15 months after that, then that could be right around January of 2022.

Of course, it's possible that DDR5 still won't be available at consumer-friendly prices at that point. If they don't wait quite that long between generations, they could sneak another generation in, and save the launch of new motherboards running DDR5 until near the end of 2022.

And yet again it seems that us users of X370 motherboards, those of us who had the audacity to support who was at the time a ridiculed near bankrupt company still putting out much slower chips than Intel (and will not regain the lead until Zen 3) and made to buy even more expensive RAM than their Intel counterparts due to very fickle compatibility get bent over the barrel and taken up the tailpipe...

Remind me again why I support AMD?
"Support through 2020" was advertised, yet we aren't getting support through 2020, that's a pretty clearcut wrong, no matter how much AMD tries to erase the past and change "through" to "until".
I'm pretty sure their official wording has always been "until" 2020. Even when AM4 first came out, there was some uncertainly as to whether that would include support for processors launching in 2020 or not. And even if they happened to say "through 2020" at some point, the current Ryzen 3000 processors are still supported on those boards and are still the current generation in 2020 as of this point.

As for "bending you over backwards", I would hardly say that's the case. You are now able to run Ryzen 3000 chips with relatively significant IPC gains and up to 16 cores on your first-gen board, and those higher core-counts are not something anyone was really expecting at Ryzen's launch. Even a Ryzen 3600 for well under $200 outperforms the 1800X by a decent margin at most tasks, and it often even exceeds its performance at heavily multithreaded tasks despite its core deficit. There are significant upgrade options available over first and second-gen parts, so you hardly got shafted.

The concern here was more for those who bought a 3000-series processor with a 400-series board within the last year, who may have been expecting to get at least one generational upgrade out of it. Since AMD didn't release a mid-range 500-series board for a year following the Ryzen 3000 launch, B450 has been the mid-range option for this generation. Had they launched B550 a year ago, this might have been less of a concern.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Flayed
If AMD wants to prevent BIOS updates to Zen 3 unless you are a confirmed owner of a Zen 3 CPU to make sure you do have a Zen 3 CPU to put in once you lose support for older chips, I wouldn't be surprised if the downgrade was locked out to the exact opposite reason: prevent you from losing Zen 3 support in case you no longer have a supported Zen/Zen+/Zen 2 CPU to flash the BIOS back up. With different BIOS versions axing support for different subsets of older CPUs, downgrading can be a minefield too. Imagine downgrading to use a Zen CPU but accidentally using a more recent BIOS that axed Zen CPUs to support Zen 2 APUs. Now you have nothing to unbrick that board with.

Intel has no problem doing so, Coffee Lake can still unofficially use DDR3 and DDR3L and some Chinese manufacturers make boards that do exactly that, some of which supporting everything from 6000-series through 9000-series on the same board and chipset. AMD could put a DDR4+5 memory controller on its AM5 IOD and let motherboard manufacturers decide what memory slots to put on their boards. Next-gen memory has always been grossly overpriced and the performance gains slim to none for the first year or two, making DDR5 the only option on AM5 may not go over well.
I still think both sides -- requiring Zen 3 before you flash an older mobo to support the new chips, and not allowing reverting to earlier BIOS code -- are somewhat silly constraints. Particularly for boards that have stuff like BIOS flashback where you don't even need to install a CPU. I get the idea, but warnings should have been sufficient.

BIOS flash pseudocode:
if (currentCPU == NotSupportedInFirmware): "Warning: You WILL NEED to swap to a different, supported CPU after this BIOS update! Please type 'I have Zen 3' to confirm you have read this message and accept responsibility."

As for the RAM stuff, supporting older RAM shouldn't be too difficult on the controller side, but motherboards with dual DIMM slot types are generally junk in my experience. You're far better off with four DDR4 slots than two DDR4 and two DDR3 -- or two DDR5 and two DDR4 in the future. Such boards are usually kludgy and won't receive great validation, further exacerbating the problems.

Of course, I admit I'm a mobo snob. I refuse to buy ultra budget boards because I've encountered too many issues with them over the years. $150-$250 boards are the sweet spot.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
As for the RAM stuff, supporting older RAM shouldn't be too difficult on the controller side, but motherboards with dual DIMM slot types are generally junk in my experience.
Just because the possibility is there does not mean motherboard manufacturers have to implement it, especially when doing so means having two unusable memory slots either way. IIRC, dual-standard boards have never been popular. Not a fan of ending up with two unusable slots either way myself. Most motherboard models go either all-previous-gen or all-next-gen memory.
 

alextheblue

Distinguished
There may "always be mistakes" but there is such a thing as unnecessary risks.
It would primarily be an expenditure of resources. I think releasing nothing would be a bigger risk. The point was a hypothetical tweaked Zen 3+ design could be released on AM5, just like Excavator+ on AM4. Whether or not it is necessary depends on their pace of execution. If they keep rolling as they have been, it will absolutely be a waste of precious time and money. But if there were major problems, and they need new product sooner, they could very well put out new Zen 3+ processors with a newer I/O die on AM5 with DDR5 support. That's all I was trying to say.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JarredWaltonGPU