Discussion AMD Ryzen MegaThread! FAQ and Resources

[jdwii]

"AMD has really good DX12 drivers. Nvidia has really crappy DX12 drivers."

More like Nvidia hardware doesn't have built in support for 12 100% and they cheap out with using software instead.

I'm not to sure why Amd's directx 11 isn't as good as Nvidia's.

 

[8350rocks]

I came across with a very interesting video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tfTZjugDeg&t=928s
it talks about Ryzen work better with AMD video card than nvidia video card vs the 7700K on the Tomb Raider.
with benchmarks.

I just caught that too. VERY interesting and it appears that there is some unconcious media bias showing here. There is no doubt that Nvidia's cards are faster, which was the choice of AMD to focus on mainstream and getting their 'big GPU' ready. But when everyone is using the same hardware, and getting slower results, it's odd that nobody thought to test AMD hardware and drivers. It DOES stand to reason that AMD's DX12 drivers would be optimized for Ryzen.

And it really makes me want to see what happens when Vega drops. That should be quite a revealing set of benchmarks.

The interesting aspect of that, is the short term implications for reviewers. They no longer can assume that Intel is the defacto-platform for testing GPUs. Most of the painful CPU bottlenecks that AMD had with PD are basically gone for the most part, so going forward, there are 3 main options: test Intel only, test AMD only or test both configs (effort x4).

From a pure effort perspective, the last one is the one I'd personally would love to see, but reality and money behind sponsors would keep reviewers tied to Intel. Yes, the money for the Hardware, unless it's an independent reviewer, comes from the sponsors most of the time. I bet there are a few cases where the parent company gives the greens, but that is hardly the case. I would love a challenge back on this last point though

In any case, long term view on this is also something I don't like. You'd be tied to AMD vertically if their GPUs perform better with their hardware only. I would hope to see the driver only favors the faster CPU (by other metrics) and not specific ones. Also, I would hope nVidia says something about that. I bet they are working on driver optimization, but some confirmation would come a long way, I guess.

Cheers!

PS: Thanks 8350 for the links!

I do not think there is an inherent problem with AMD optimizing their GPU drivers for their CPUs. I think it honestly helps them long term to do so, simply because Nvidia is not going to optimize for AMD CPUs, and I doubt Intel is at all concerned about whose GPU drivers do what with their CPUs at this point.

If you are going to buy an AMD CPU, and you look at graphics cards reviews and see that X GPU from ATI/AMD works a bit better for similar or less money than the equivalent Nvidia card, then you would get the AMD GPU. Some people will still buy AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs, just because...but they are in a unique position to optimize the interaction between their hardware on both sides. I think ignoring that prospect is probably a bad business decision.

Now, as long as they are not sabotaging Nvidia or Intel, I am fine with it. I doubt they would do so anyway, but the point remains. It is up to Nvidia to optimize their hardware and drivers to function best on the various platforms out there. As it stands, they are clearly focused on DX11 and Intel. It seems AMD is focused on DX12/Vulkan, and making sure their CPU/GPU combinations interact in the most optimal manner.

 

[jaymc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tfTZjugDeg

Amazing insight on the fact that pretty much all reviewers are reviewing with Nvidia GPUs.

A perspective using CF 480s in DX12

Wow what a video.. A hundred hours eh.. well no one will slag him now, he was takin a lot of flak over previous video "tech press goes crazy", but it has to be said excellent reviewer !

AMD GPU's are not just performing better on Ryzen they perform better on both CPU's intel included, gap closes between to cpu's with crossfire but the 7700k benefits from crossfire an dx12 as well.. maybe not as much but !! Is it not jus that nvidia's dx12 drivers suck ?

Vega is gonna be savage in dx12 ... Will nvidia fix this do you's reckon now that a light has been shone on it ?

Be interesting to see the 6900k in that bench an how it does in dx12 with amd crossfire...

 

[randomizer]

I will note using an external program will affect thread scheduling to some degree, no matter how little load said program is taking up.

Fact is, once we start benchmarking use cases where all cores are being utilized, using external programs to measure performance WILL have a non-zero impact on the final result.

You can account for that by running the external application while running internal benchmarks.

 

[-Fran-]

I do not think there is an inherent problem with AMD optimizing their GPU drivers for their CPUs. I think it honestly helps them long term to do so, simply because Nvidia is not going to optimize for AMD CPUs, and I doubt Intel is at all concerned about whose GPU drivers do what with their CPUs at this point.

If you are going to buy an AMD CPU, and you look at graphics cards reviews and see that X GPU from ATI/AMD works a bit better for similar or less money than the equivalent Nvidia card, then you would get the AMD GPU. Some people will still buy AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs, just because...but they are in a unique position to optimize the interaction between their hardware on both sides. I think ignoring that prospect is probably a bad business decision.

Now, as long as they are not sabotaging Nvidia or Intel, I am fine with it. I doubt they would do so anyway, but the point remains. It is up to Nvidia to optimize their hardware and drivers to function best on the various platforms out there. As it stands, they are clearly focused on DX11 and Intel. It seems AMD is focused on DX12/Vulkan, and making sure their CPU/GPU combinations interact in the most optimal manner.

Bolded: yes, there is one. Maybe not now, but depending on market position that is something no one should ever allow a Company doing. That is how monopolies start. It's a principle thing and nothing to do with the context and present status of a Company. I can understand a Company doing it because they don't have access to all the tools that would allow them to optimize for the competition, but that is hardly the case here I would imagine.

But yes, I am overreacting. It's just one of the flags I can see from a mile away being raised casually. I don't think AMD will follow that route either, but a Company is a Company. They'll do whatever for the bottom line.

And in other Ryzen news. TR put the news they already have the 4core and 6core siblings in the lab. I would imagine Toms does have them as well. I just hope we see more CPUs being tested alongside the new stuff and a RX480 just for research purposes 😛

Cheers!

 

[randomizer]

I wish reviewers would benchmark the i7 920 alongside new CPUs. It makes it hard to do comparisons otherwise. Even TPU, which usually does reviews with fairly old hardware included, did not help me out this time. If I was an unreasonably unreasonable person I would be livid right now.

 

[8350rocks]

I do not think there is an inherent problem with AMD optimizing their GPU drivers for their CPUs. I think it honestly helps them long term to do so, simply because Nvidia is not going to optimize for AMD CPUs, and I doubt Intel is at all concerned about whose GPU drivers do what with their CPUs at this point.

If you are going to buy an AMD CPU, and you look at graphics cards reviews and see that X GPU from ATI/AMD works a bit better for similar or less money than the equivalent Nvidia card, then you would get the AMD GPU. Some people will still buy AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs, just because...but they are in a unique position to optimize the interaction between their hardware on both sides. I think ignoring that prospect is probably a bad business decision.

Now, as long as they are not sabotaging Nvidia or Intel, I am fine with it. I doubt they would do so anyway, but the point remains. It is up to Nvidia to optimize their hardware and drivers to function best on the various platforms out there. As it stands, they are clearly focused on DX11 and Intel. It seems AMD is focused on DX12/Vulkan, and making sure their CPU/GPU combinations interact in the most optimal manner.

Bolded: yes, there is one. Maybe not now, but depending on market position that is something no one should ever allow a Company doing. That is how monopolies start. It's a principle thing and nothing to do with the context and present status of a Company. I can understand a Company doing it because they don't have access to all the tools that would allow them to optimize for the competition, but that is hardly the case here I would imagine.

But yes, I am overreacting. It's just one of the flags I can see from a mile away being raised casually. I don't think AMD will follow that route either, but a Company is a Company. They'll do whatever for the bottom line.

And in other Ryzen news. TR put the news they already have the 4core and 6core siblings in the lab. I would imagine Toms does have them as well. I just hope we see more CPUs being tested alongside the new stuff and a RX480 just for research purposes 😛

Cheers!

I can agree with some of your points, but it is not like Nvidia cannot get their hands on hardware and start optimizing to help themselves. Who but Nvidia can optimize their drivers?

Besides, it is pretty clear they are unconcerned about DX12/Vulkan because their drivers suck badly...

 

[jdwii]

Again its a hardware issue not a software issue. With Amd and their noncompetitive 11 performance it was a software issue something that they actually have been fixing 480rx looks a lot better in directx 11 titles today then it did at launch.


Reviewers are getting the more relevant Ryzen chips the R5 does anyone know when the R3 comes out?

Something tells me we might have to wait until APUs come out with Ryzen.

 

[jaymc]

Nvidia used to be great with their driver optimizations... Why now are they all of a sudden so bad at it ? Their dx12 support is brutal. Are they just optimizing for Intel an the 7700k I can't help wondering. Hardly the case is it ?

 

[NickatNight8320]

It was my understanding that AMD's jump in dx12 performance was related more to the fact that DX12 can leverage the Asynchronous compute engine that has been apart of GCN for years. And Nvidia doesn't have a fully compatible system for Async Compute.

 

[jaymc]

So is it an architectural problem ? Can it be solved with software ? I suppose that's the real question. This Could help AMD a lot, Ryzen and Vega... It's seem's the way they always look to the future is starting to pay off.. Especially with multi core cpu's, dx12 and vulken...

Although I think that maybe the 6900k would probably see the benefit from AMD GPU's in the same benchmark.. I'd like to see it tested actually.

I'd say vega will be a demon in dx12/vulken titles...interesting twist eh

Keep editing I know sry guy's ... jus seen this "Nvidia's 378.78 driver delivers giant gains in several DirectX 12 games"
http://www.pcgamer.com/nvidias-37878-driver-delivers-giant-gains-in-several-directx-12-games/
33 percent improvement in dx12... Where the nvidia numbers in the video from this driver I wonder. Maybe not.

Similiar story in The Division by the way.. tested by someone else on reddit, I posted links an info in the Vega thread as it's relating to Vega.

edit (again): Adored confirmed nvidia numbers are from their latest driver.. he said they must have been brutal before the 33 percent increase in tomb raider.

 

[8350rocks]

Another review about Ryzen discussing the feel of the games they play being incredibly smooth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlKUYQCb4c

 

[-Fran-]

Another review about Ryzen discussing the feel of the games they play being incredibly smooth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlKUYQCb4c

I don't know... This sounds like another of those hype snowballs that is starting to be passed from reviewer to reviewer (in YT at least) and they are having, from what it seems, a placebo effect on them. Why? In that video he says "butter smooth this, butter smooth that", but then again, you see explicit hiccups when the scene gets actually loaded with enemy AI. That IS a CPU dependent situation.

I will need to see numbers backing those claims to actually trust them, 8350. Them YT reviewers are saying empty words with no numbers to back them up.

Remember that those are subjective interpretations, so salt is mandatory.

Cheers!

EDIT: Removed word.

 

[Nope 1151]

Exactly @Yuka, how everyone thought R7= Kaby Lake may have hurt AMD more than usually (stock wise).

 

[8350rocks]

Another review about Ryzen discussing the feel of the games they play being incredibly smooth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlKUYQCb4c

I don't know... This sounds like another of those hype snowballs that is starting to be passed from reviewer to reviewer (in YT at least) and they are having, from what it seems, a placebo effect on them. Why? In that video he says "butter smooth this, butter smooth that", but then again, you see explicit hiccups when the scene gets actually loaded with enemy AI. That IS a CPU dependent situation.

I will need to see numbers backing those claims to actually trust them, 8350. Them YT reviewers are saying empty words with no numbers to back them up.

Remember that those are subjective interpretations, so salt is mandatory.

Cheers!

EDIT: Removed word.

Watch Jayz2cents video. There is zero stutter in any game he runs on 1800X, and he cannot stop talking about how fluid the experience is for him. He tests a lot of games, too...GTAV, Ghost Recon Wildlands, etc.

 

[randomizer]

Another review about Ryzen discussing the feel of the games they play being incredibly smooth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlKUYQCb4c

I'm pretty sure people said the same thing about K10.

 

[jaymc]

No this is a fact An it's a major bonus Ryzen has over Intel with it's architecture.. Many different reviewers are describing this..

An it makes perfect sense when you think about it...

The silky smooth gaming experience that people are describing is being delivered because the PCI Express lane's for the GPU or GPU's and USB 3.1 for the mouse and keyboard, go directly to and through the CPU instead of the chipset on the motherboard..

You can imagine the difference this is making in response times and the general feel in games.. !

PCI Express 3.0's 8 GT/s bit rate effectively delivers 985 MB/s per lane... I'm not sure this would be enough for a dual GPU version of Vega... But two cards in crossfire should work like a dream I'd say !
We could be looking at an 8k gaming rig with this setup.. and a "silky smooth" experience to go with it as well... This will be pretty amazing to say the least..

It is a pity that they haven't got PCI Express 4.0 support or 3.1 for that matter, built in (I suppose i'm just getting greedy now). This obviously is a limitation of the Zen architecture itself. As even Naples in 2 socket version's is using PCI Express 3.0 to talk to itself...

Well maybe we will get PCI Express 4.0 support for Zen+, we live in hope I guess.

I suppose for now we should appreciate what we have at the moment as this architecture really is something else... The closer we look at it, the more amazing it seems to be.

I cannot wait to experience this "silky smooth" gaming... in dx12 or Vulken with Ryzen 7 and a Vega GPU

Cheers,
Jay

Edit: Spelling and grammer.

 

[con635]

So is it an architectural problem ? Can it be solved with software ? I suppose that's the real question. This Could help AMD a lot, Ryzen and Vega... It's seem's the way they always look to the future is starting to pay off.. Especially with multi core cpu's, dx12 and vulken...

Although I think that maybe the 6900k would probably see the benefit from AMD GPU's in the same benchmark.. I'd like to see it tested actually.

I'd say vega will be a demon in dx12/vulken titles...interesting twist eh

Keep editing I know sry guy's ... jus seen this "Nvidia's 378.78 driver delivers giant gains in several DirectX 12 games"
http://www.pcgamer.com/nvidias-37878-driver-delivers-giant-gains-in-several-directx-12-games/
33 percent improvement in dx12... Where the nvidia numbers in the video from this driver I wonder. Maybe not.

Similiar story in The Division by the way.. tested by someone else on reddit, I posted links an info in the Vega thread as it's relating to Vega.

edit (again): Adored confirmed nvidia numbers are from their latest driver.. he said they must have been brutal before the 33 percent increase in tomb raider.

I've had the experience of Doom 2016 on a gtx680, then just after on an rx 470, nvidia are brutal on vulkan vs amd, we're talking much better settings an 100+fps vs sub 30 in places.

 

[randomizer]

No this is a fact An it's a major bonus Ryzen has over Intel with it's architecture..

Sounds awfully similar to the claims about Phenom having some magic advantage because it was a "real" quad core. What people feel in an uncontrolled test is of little value.

 

[jaymc]

No this is a fact An it's a major bonus Ryzen has over Intel with it's architecture..

Sounds awfully similar to the rhetoric about Phenom being a "real" quad core.

Maybe, but the similarity ends there, this is a real thing, I could be wrong hey it's happened before but I really doubt it...

The architecture explains this... an it makes perfect sense if you look at it..

Lot's of different reviewers are describing this "silky smooth" gameplay, but don't know why it's happening.
Adored TV even mentions the mouse response and sensitivity.. as well as the silky smooth feel of tomb raider while reviewing in actual gameplay...

As I say Many different reviewers have mentioned this phenomenon without any explanation.

But mention it they do none the less...

 

[wh3resmycar]

No this is a fact An it's a major bonus Ryzen has over Intel with it's architecture..

Sounds awfully similar to the claims about Phenom having some magic advantage because it was a "real" quad core. What people feel in an uncontrolled test is of little value.

that was nasty.


anyhow. people who bought r7s most likely got 1440p monitors, at 1440p intel has no significant advantage. the r5s will decide ryzen's success since these will be the chips that will sell in volumes.

 

[jaymc]

No this is a fact An it's a major bonus Ryzen has over Intel with it's architecture..

Sounds awfully similar to the claims about Phenom having some magic advantage because it was a "real" quad core. What people feel in an uncontrolled test is of little value.

that was nasty.


anyhow. people who bought r7s most likely got 1440p monitors, at 1440p intel has no significant advantage. the r5s will decide ryzen's success since these will be the chips that will sell in volumes.

True but after recent revelations, I think I'd really like an R7 or at least a six core... with the way AMD's GPU's are responding in dx12 an vulken...

 

[-Fran-]

Just keep in mind the "no numbers given" aspect of the claims.

I don't have any particular reason to go against any YT's impression of how good or bad Ryzen "feels", but you can't take those words as fact without evidence.

Also. No matter how well you understand Zen's underlying uArch and parts, AMD and Intel work as platforms and a single component of difference can alter the results greatly. I gave it some thought and imagine AMD works better with SSDs in RAID0 than Intel (example), but reviewers only use single SSDs? That has a direct, quantifiable, impact on loading times and other tasks, but might never be brought to the light because no one cared to do the test.

So, there's reasons to trust and not trust subjective impressions of reviewers. Configuration changes in a platform and the methodology can make the results vary greatly. We are all supposed to be aware of this fact.

Cheers!

 

[randomizer]

The fact that multiple reviewers have noticed this mysterious smoothness does not mean anything. They may be noticing it because they're expecting to notice it. I am highly skeptical of someone who is attributing the responsiveness of his mouse to the platform.

 

[jaymc]

Maybe so guy's but it makes sense that the smoothness in game would be attributed to the chipset being cut out of the middle.. the cpu is now talking directly to the gpu and the usb keyboard an mouse.. I have asked reviewer to look into it so hopefully we will find out soon if this is indeed the case.

Other games are even jerking sometimes when running on the 7700k.. you could see this in one of the YT's videos an was it not happening on ryzen system... I can't remember now which guy it was.. I think maybe Jay2cents... an the same game was running noticeably (viisually obvious to us) smoother on Ryzen.. Well completely smooth on his video review... Surely someone here may have the review...an may remember. Sry I can't remember who it was or the game.. but those details stuck in my head..

I think it was mafia or something like that anyway.... I've watched so many reviews at this stage they are coming out of my ears !!

But I think he was saying that it might have been that fps was higher on 7700k.. but the gap between highest and lowest fram rate was much bigger on 7700k... causing a stutter.... this just simply was not happening at all on the Ryzen system. Seem's to be the case in more than one game...

I can understand what u guy's are saying that maybe it's all in the head.. but everyone seem's to agree on this one point... isn't that unusual in itself.. for everyone to agree on something across the board ?

J