parlee
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once again, the LOWER end dells are the ones with no upgrade path. once u get closer to 1000 dollars then they include lower end video cards and such, meaning they have a pci express slot, i cant believe u side with that kid on this, this is what makes u a blantent fan boy. the kid obviously didnt take any time in researching the computer, put extra shit in, said oh its 1100 bux itll be blazing fast, ordered it, got it and THEN????? found out it was a celeron. no joke dude, theres no other word for that but retarded. honestly dvd u cant side with the kid because he picked out a low end model and somehow got it up to 1100 bux, although that seems to be a bit bs too, 128 to 512 memory what? 60 bux? xp to xp pro, 50 bux, i forget hd size but it was no more than another 50, so ur up to 600, then waht a low end celeron to the high end one? wow a whopping 50 bux? 650-700 total... and then what 400 for shipping? i dont believe u ended up spending 1100 bux on a low end dell with those specs, dell doesnt overprice stuff like that, i agree that dell does overprice a little so they can actually make a profit, but they dont overprice by the hundreds.
ches111
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The funny thing is there are a lot of assumptions being made here. I will try to address some of these assumptions.
Assumption #1 - AMD could produce tomorrow the level of chips needed to support a contract with Dell.
Address - AMD would need to spin up manufacturing to a much higher level than what they currently provide. This would take time to retool since of course AMD would also want to maintain there current levels of Quality Assurance such that people are not complaining about infant mortality in their new AMD/Dell machine. AMD going to the smaller die size helped with this (greater density per wafer) but they are still struggling to keep up with current demand in their FX/X2 processors.
Assumption #2 - Dell needs AMD because of the overwhelming perfomance gain from the procs.
Address - People do not know or care about performance (that much) when they are purchasing a Dell for a home use machine ( the business workstation and server groups are something different). The wholesale consumer market that Dell targets are NOT THG forum persons. They are people who need a PC and a number that they can call to learn how to turn it on and connect to the Digital Camera they bought but can not figure out how to download the pictures. The business markets are something wholly different. Here they are loking for a PC (workstation)/Server with a number that they can call 24/7 for immediate shippment of replacement parts or for problem resolution. Mostly for parts shipment though. To Linux_0 if you are buying enterprise level equipment from a generic vendor without the enterprise level support that Dell gives, you would be a fool. Dell needs AMD to give differing product offerings. This expands their market share and market influence. Really is only one way Dell would be hurt for NOT partnering with AMD. IF AMD delivered a chip that was such a significant cost/performance upgrade in business applications over the current INTEL offerings (right now that just is not going to happen). Remember the IT guy is looking at price vs performance and part of that performance is the ability of the company to support their products.
Assumption #3 - The average (not THG forum people) owner (people who buy instead of build) actually knows that the AMD is better/faster.
Address - cmon. Ask your mother/grandmother or father/grandfather which is the quickest chip the FX or the Xeon, the X2 or the 950. Most will look at you like you are talking greek. These are the people buying Dell consumer PCs. I think here this is "nuff said"
Assupmtion #4 - The botique builders affect anything to do with Dell.
Address - Someone here just stated that the Alienware and Falcon and and and builders would beat Dell in gaming systems. Sure they would but who is going to buy those? People with way too much money and not enough sense. But I guarantee you that Dell knows the gaming market is usually a "one-time-purchase" agreement with their customers. Most gaming folks that would buy a botique style machine would NEVER buy one again. Because they would typically become schooled enough to be on these forums buiding their next machine for a whole lot less money.
Some of you folks need to think through things before you post. Posting information from an emotional standpoint is nice and all. But when it comes down to it if you apply logic and not emotion you will get much better results. Dell is hitting there target markets both in the consumer and business arenas (that is obvious). WE are not Dells target market.
Assumption #1 - AMD could produce tomorrow the level of chips needed to support a contract with Dell.
Address - AMD would need to spin up manufacturing to a much higher level than what they currently provide. This would take time to retool since of course AMD would also want to maintain there current levels of Quality Assurance such that people are not complaining about infant mortality in their new AMD/Dell machine. AMD going to the smaller die size helped with this (greater density per wafer) but they are still struggling to keep up with current demand in their FX/X2 processors.
Assumption #2 - Dell needs AMD because of the overwhelming perfomance gain from the procs.
Address - People do not know or care about performance (that much) when they are purchasing a Dell for a home use machine ( the business workstation and server groups are something different). The wholesale consumer market that Dell targets are NOT THG forum persons. They are people who need a PC and a number that they can call to learn how to turn it on and connect to the Digital Camera they bought but can not figure out how to download the pictures. The business markets are something wholly different. Here they are loking for a PC (workstation)/Server with a number that they can call 24/7 for immediate shippment of replacement parts or for problem resolution. Mostly for parts shipment though. To Linux_0 if you are buying enterprise level equipment from a generic vendor without the enterprise level support that Dell gives, you would be a fool. Dell needs AMD to give differing product offerings. This expands their market share and market influence. Really is only one way Dell would be hurt for NOT partnering with AMD. IF AMD delivered a chip that was such a significant cost/performance upgrade in business applications over the current INTEL offerings (right now that just is not going to happen). Remember the IT guy is looking at price vs performance and part of that performance is the ability of the company to support their products.
Assumption #3 - The average (not THG forum people) owner (people who buy instead of build) actually knows that the AMD is better/faster.
Address - cmon. Ask your mother/grandmother or father/grandfather which is the quickest chip the FX or the Xeon, the X2 or the 950. Most will look at you like you are talking greek. These are the people buying Dell consumer PCs. I think here this is "nuff said"
Assupmtion #4 - The botique builders affect anything to do with Dell.
Address - Someone here just stated that the Alienware and Falcon and and and builders would beat Dell in gaming systems. Sure they would but who is going to buy those? People with way too much money and not enough sense. But I guarantee you that Dell knows the gaming market is usually a "one-time-purchase" agreement with their customers. Most gaming folks that would buy a botique style machine would NEVER buy one again. Because they would typically become schooled enough to be on these forums buiding their next machine for a whole lot less money.
Some of you folks need to think through things before you post. Posting information from an emotional standpoint is nice and all. But when it comes down to it if you apply logic and not emotion you will get much better results. Dell is hitting there target markets both in the consumer and business arenas (that is obvious). WE are not Dells target market.
linux_0
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Parlee,
Here is a Dell Config for over $20,000 USD:
Here is a functionally BETTER machine from newegg for $11,000 USD:
You can get a BETTER server from newegg or any other vendor online for 11k vs 20k from Dell.
Which is the better deal?
Do you see what I was talking about in my posts above?
Once you hit configure prices go way up.
Most Dell servers are expensive to begin with even the mass produced ones so even if you do not customize it you are still paying too much.
Here is a Dell Config for over $20,000 USD:
Here is a functionally BETTER machine from newegg for $11,000 USD:
You can get a BETTER server from newegg or any other vendor online for 11k vs 20k from Dell.
Which is the better deal?
Do you see what I was talking about in my posts above?
Once you hit configure prices go way up.
Most Dell servers are expensive to begin with even the mass produced ones so even if you do not customize it you are still paying too much.
parlee
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and low end hp's arnt 450 dollars. we got a refurbed 3.0 dell that doesnt have a pciexpress slot becasue its the lowest model, who the fuck buys a low end model and decides i want a 6800gt 99% (with the acception of this kid) of the people who buy the cheaper dells use them for internet browsing, music, and typing homework and such, which is why they have intergrated video and no agp slot, which is how they can sell it for 450, using celerons, cheap 10 dollar mobos, a much smaller psu (knowing that they cant put a 7800gtx in the pci express slot) so if they did buy a new mobo and put a huge ass card in without upgrading the psu's and blowin it, dell could say, no fuck u theres a reason why theres no pci express slot, they use weak psus to keep the cost down, as small as 200 watts. which is pretty much more than enoguh for 1 hd 2 optical drives and a celeron cpu. put in a video card, any video card, and ur using more than 200 watts on peak usage, they know that and people bitch about the psu's already. they do all this and it helps to lower the price by im guessing 50 dollars for the consumer, i could argue that hp does the same thing but ive never seen an hp computer selling for 450 with a monitor. the cheapest hp ive seen is 600, and by the way, emachines does the same thing, all comapnys do it to there low end computers.
linux_0
Splendid
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You just pointed out another problem with Dell and most other OEMs.
You usually have NO upgrade path
If you get lucky you might be able to upgrade one of two components but that's usually it.
So when you get lucky you have a LIMITED upgrade path
I am not singling out Dell, the other OEMs are just as bad.
You usually have NO upgrade path
If you get lucky you might be able to upgrade one of two components but that's usually it.
So when you get lucky you have a LIMITED upgrade path
I am not singling out Dell, the other OEMs are just as bad.
parlee he didnt want a 6800 now did he? he said he wanted to upgrade it not pimp it out 
and dude you forgot something dell buys pcs from foxconn and they dont test them like other manufacturers do they just ship em out and hope they work for a month and then say screw them parlee do you know what the biggest problems are with the dells i've fixed? the harddrive and psu
and dude you forgot something dell buys pcs from foxconn and they dont test them like other manufacturers do they just ship em out and hope they work for a month and then say screw them parlee do you know what the biggest problems are with the dells i've fixed? the harddrive and psu
ches111
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At least Linux_0 is providing detail information (not speculation) to support his portion of this debate (kudos).
Parlee and DVD you are both in what I like to call a Pissing match. Just so both of you learn something (pissing matches are usually won by the guy with producable information and who keeps his cool). Emotion is nice but emotion will not win anything. Logic and facts presented from a legitimate source (not ihatedell.com) is a real winner.
Linux_0,
Many of the Corps out there that are purchasing the servers you are talking about partner with folks like Dell and do not do a single or couple server purchase. When partnered with Dell, HP, Gateway.... you get much better pricing. It is called Specialized Customer Agreements or SCA. This happens everywhere. Such as telephony, many companies agree to purchase X amount of data/long distance and they get an SCA based upon their purchasing/usage.
Just food for thought. Also if you are willing to work with a CSR @ Dell you could probably get near the same prices with a smaller purchase and still get great server support.
This is the same for all not just Dell. It is just business.
Parlee and DVD you are both in what I like to call a Pissing match. Just so both of you learn something (pissing matches are usually won by the guy with producable information and who keeps his cool). Emotion is nice but emotion will not win anything. Logic and facts presented from a legitimate source (not ihatedell.com) is a real winner.
Linux_0,
Many of the Corps out there that are purchasing the servers you are talking about partner with folks like Dell and do not do a single or couple server purchase. When partnered with Dell, HP, Gateway.... you get much better pricing. It is called Specialized Customer Agreements or SCA. This happens everywhere. Such as telephony, many companies agree to purchase X amount of data/long distance and they get an SCA based upon their purchasing/usage.
Just food for thought. Also if you are willing to work with a CSR @ Dell you could probably get near the same prices with a smaller purchase and still get great server support.
This is the same for all not just Dell. It is just business.
ches111
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Again assupmtions!!!
Asuming that the normal consumer even understands that the $300.00 PC is upgradable or not?
I worked PC retail for three years and you are giving these folks a real upgrade as far as their understanding of consumer level or any other level of PCs.
These people need exactly what I said. A PC and a phone number to call to learn how to turn it on.
Asuming that the normal consumer even understands that the $300.00 PC is upgradable or not?
I worked PC retail for three years and you are giving these folks a real upgrade as far as their understanding of consumer level or any other level of PCs.
These people need exactly what I said. A PC and a phone number to call to learn how to turn it on.
ches111
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Better yet,
They need a PC (budget dependent) and a 800 number to call.
Linux_0,
I wish I had the ability to share with you pricing of the Dell servers I spec'd.
They were by far a better price and MUCH better support. Of course I did not ever accept any as configured price. You really should be talking to a business CSR. They will give you some concession to purchase from them whether it is upgrade of service plans or upgrade of memory specifications or price cuts or D all of the above.
Anyone who configures a server on a website for an enterprise purchase without talking to a CSR really does deserve what they get 🙂
They need a PC (budget dependent) and a 800 number to call.
Linux_0,
I wish I had the ability to share with you pricing of the Dell servers I spec'd.
They were by far a better price and MUCH better support. Of course I did not ever accept any as configured price. You really should be talking to a business CSR. They will give you some concession to purchase from them whether it is upgrade of service plans or upgrade of memory specifications or price cuts or D all of the above.
Anyone who configures a server on a website for an enterprise purchase without talking to a CSR really does deserve what they get 🙂
linux_0
Splendid
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Tru64 😀
I was demonstrating that my statements were in fact tru64.
On the website the markup is nearly 100%.
Granted you CAN get better pricing but purchasing your own parts and building your own servers has some distinct advantages 😀
Perhaps you could share more of that info privately if it does not violate any agreements you might have with Dell.
I was demonstrating that my statements were in fact tru64.
On the website the markup is nearly 100%.
Granted you CAN get better pricing but purchasing your own parts and building your own servers has some distinct advantages 😀
Perhaps you could share more of that info privately if it does not violate any agreements you might have with Dell.
ches111
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Linux_0,
Just a ?
As good as NEWEGG.com is at consumer Customer Service do you think they would be there at 2:00am to help troubleshoot a fault detection in one of your two power supplies?
I really do not think that they would have that expertise at that hour. If you did find an error and were not sure. When would you recive the replacement parts? Would they do a FEDEX next day AIR and have it at your door step 10:00 your time? Would they send you multiple PSUs to make sure they fixed your critical machine the first time?
Business is a real different world/animal.
Just a ?
As good as NEWEGG.com is at consumer Customer Service do you think they would be there at 2:00am to help troubleshoot a fault detection in one of your two power supplies?
I really do not think that they would have that expertise at that hour. If you did find an error and were not sure. When would you recive the replacement parts? Would they do a FEDEX next day AIR and have it at your door step 10:00 your time? Would they send you multiple PSUs to make sure they fixed your critical machine the first time?
Business is a real different world/animal.
linux_0
Splendid
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That is precisely the reason why I stock my own parts and recommend my clients do the same.
That way you always have spares on hand when you need them most. No need to wait for Fedex.
When I am building critical servers I normally use triple redundant PSUs so the machine can survive no matter what (they can operate on 1 PSU module out of 3).
If you build it correctly with proper redundancy you are less likely to experience problems.
That way you always have spares on hand when you need them most. No need to wait for Fedex.
When I am building critical servers I normally use triple redundant PSUs so the machine can survive no matter what (they can operate on 1 PSU module out of 3).
If you build it correctly with proper redundancy you are less likely to experience problems.
ches111
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Linux_0 Very true,
Man nice to debate with someone with a head on their shoulders.
I really never did triple PSUs but rarely have I seen a time when I needed them. YET!
By the way I do understand your reference to Tru64. At the time it was the best available. I have worked on many DEC Alpha servers from the 8100, 8400, DS10/20s, 1000s, 4000s.... Nice machines for their time. The SMP is still difficult to beat.
I actually was instrumental in the re-engineering of an AIX system (by system I mean 14 RISC6000s in serial) to a single DEC 8400 with 16 cpus and 4gb of memory. All the processing fit on the single box and we were roughly 50 times faster after we word aligned the code. AIX does bit shifting much better/quicker than the Alphas but the Alpha fly when word aligned. How many people on this thread do you think understand the difference between Big and Little Endian?
Thing is depending on your level of support with Dell they will likely keep spares on site too. Just an "ALL depends".
Man nice to debate with someone with a head on their shoulders.
I really never did triple PSUs but rarely have I seen a time when I needed them. YET!
By the way I do understand your reference to Tru64. At the time it was the best available. I have worked on many DEC Alpha servers from the 8100, 8400, DS10/20s, 1000s, 4000s.... Nice machines for their time. The SMP is still difficult to beat.
I actually was instrumental in the re-engineering of an AIX system (by system I mean 14 RISC6000s in serial) to a single DEC 8400 with 16 cpus and 4gb of memory. All the processing fit on the single box and we were roughly 50 times faster after we word aligned the code. AIX does bit shifting much better/quicker than the Alphas but the Alpha fly when word aligned. How many people on this thread do you think understand the difference between Big and Little Endian?
Thing is depending on your level of support with Dell they will likely keep spares on site too. Just an "ALL depends".
ches111
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By the way Linux_0 I unfortunately do know what a VAX is.
Never was forced to work on them though 🙂
Another by the way, I was USAF for 9+ years..
I have worked on everything from <cough>Mainframe</cough> to Silly Gs to IBM SP2s to Alphas to IBM RISC6000 to currently running enterprise edition of Redhat on Intel Xeon IBM boxes.
Never was forced to work on them though 🙂
Another by the way, I was USAF for 9+ years..
I have worked on everything from <cough>Mainframe</cough> to Silly Gs to IBM SP2s to Alphas to IBM RISC6000 to currently running enterprise edition of Redhat on Intel Xeon IBM boxes.
linux_0
Splendid
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I'm sorry if I brought back any unpleasant memories
I had to work on a real VAX for a few months. I even took a miniVax apart once ;-)
I must say I enjoyed the latter :lol: :lol:
Go Air Force 😀 😀
I have used IBM mainframes, VAXen, Sparcs, HPs, AIX on various IBMs, some Alphas, x86s from 8088 - P4, AMDs from 386 to K8 and some others I'm too ashamed to admit I worked on ;-)
I'm currently using 2 AMD64s running 64bit Linux 😀
parlee
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damn what a fast post, leave for 3 min and its up to 7 pages... anyways i think it was ches that agreed with me and he got what i was trying to say with no bs, which is pretty much what i was saying from the beginning. average users dont ugrade, at all, they buy the 300 dollar computer till it dies then buy another 300 dollar computer, they dont know what memory is and how 1 gb is better than the 256 they have, thye dont realize theres no agp slot for a video card, hell the dont even know what a video card is, its amazing they even set the computer up correctly. that being said this is why i think the 300 dollar dell systems are a great value, u get a computer that will run, and have no probles with for a while, although some have problems, like all companys, yes the 300 dollar one comes with a celeron, but to the average user "what the hell is a celeron" "hey it runs IE fine" they dont think, oh i can get a p4 for twice the price and 3 times the perforamcne...
parlee
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for once id have to agree with u prozac 😛... read. the. thread. the average user doesnt even know waht dual core is, but they buy it because it sounds cool, and the guy at best buy says it has 2 cores so its twice as fast and there like DAYUMM HOMEZZ I GOTS TA GET ME THAT, then they get it home to see that theres actually no increase and slower than some other p4's at higher clocks (comparing 2.8 dual core to 3.4 single core)
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