AMD Talks Steamroller: 15% Improvement Over Piledriver

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Only a "15 percent improvement" - that's not even near enough to keep up with Intel. I suppose still no PCIe 3.0 support either - AMD is way, way behind and they're never going to catch up with mere 15% improvements. I'd very much like to see AMD catch up to Intel though for solid competition. I wish there were 4 or more processor companies competing in the CPU market; more the merrier - better for the consumer.
 
don't get too excited guys. In the article, it says, "15% per watt." Sorry. Believe me, I'm wishing it was +15% performance, not just per watt
 
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]More performance per watt means more thermal headroom and that probably means more overclocking potential. AMD is likely to increase stock clocks as necessary anyway even if they don't improve performance per Hz by much. Unlike Netburst, AMD's modular architecture is actually good at what it is intended to do and can clock extremely high without a problem while having a lot more performance at a given clock frequency than Netburst did. AMD can increase the clocks every time that they decrease power consumption and they can do other things too. Performance, not just power efficiency, will almost definitely continue improving from now on with AMD.[/citation]
I'm not disagreeing with the principles of potentially being able to clock up with greater power efficiency, or even moreso with a die shrink. But it's difficult to take the PPW and translate it to greater performance without a huge grain of salt. Especially after the initial claims of Trinity over Llano before Trinity's release. Where modest gains were claimed pre-release, only marginal gains were observed post-release.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to believe higher performance, but despite my on-going high-hopes for AMD, I'll wait for the released product before I believe it. PPW claims aside.
 
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Probably 32nm. AMD doesn't need to move on because they can simply keep fixing Bulldozer's many design implementation flaws and AMD can't move on until other fab companies are ready for that anyway. Unlike Intel, AMD has to rely on other companies doing their job to get a new process node ready.[/citation]
Have you not been keeping up with manufacturing techniques? Everyone knows Steamroller will be manufactured on 22nm. Anyone at Intel camp would just source out Tick Tock for you.
 
[citation][nom]mcd023[/nom]don't get too excited guys. In the article, it says, "15% per watt." Sorry. Believe me, I'm wishing it was +15% performance, not just per watt[/citation]
Saving %15 per watt means they use the watts saved to increase performance.
 
[citation][nom]mcd023[/nom]don't get too excited guys. In the article, it says, "15% per watt." Sorry. Believe me, I'm wishing it was +15% performance, not just per watt[/citation]exactly, it doesnt mention about how much faster it will clock. If it gain 15% alone on the very same 32nm process @ the same core clock, then that 15% is a nice improvement, but if it is a 15% improvement on a 28/22nm. It is just a minor gain and wont consider a Microarchitecture improvement, it is more like a process improvement!
 
[citation][nom]Tomfreak[/nom]exactly, it doesnt mention about how much faster it will clock. If it gain 15% alone on the very same 32nm process @ the same core clock, then that 15% is a nice improvement, but if it is a 15% improvement on a 28/22nm. It is just a minor gain and wont consider a Microarchitecture improvement![/citation]
Check out Ivy Bridge, and see it's shrink from 32nm to 22nm only yielding 5% improvement.
 
that 5% is more like a process improvement. So if AMD claim that 15% is from a 22nm. it is not a Microarchitecture improvement.
 
[citation][nom]nuclearrage[/nom]I'm still waiting for AMD to release somthing that runs 15% faster than my Phenom II 980BE , sorry , I have been a long time fan of AMD , but I call BS on this until I see benchies![/citation]

I'm with you in that boat, I have the same processor.
 
[citation][nom]leeashton[/nom]well we currently know that trinity on the mobile platform out performs any intel Chip, so AMD has the mobile performance crown[/citation]
[citation][nom]vistaofdoom[/nom]Good troll there...[/citation]
I thought he was being sarcastic. LOL.
 
[citation][nom]mcd023[/nom]don't get too excited guys. In the article, it says, "15% per watt." Sorry. Believe me, I'm wishing it was +15% performance, not just per watt[/citation]

...and? So long as AMD doesn't decrease TDP by 15 percent, you should get your 15% performance.
 
Man I hope Steamroller is the new PhenomII, c'mon second gen, get it right.

when they say %15 per watt increase... does that mean it'l scale if I overclock to 200Watt?confused

Fungi
 
[citation][nom]wiyosaya[/nom]The trouble is, Intel is not standing still. If the improvements in Intel's subsequent gen chips keep pace with AMD's, then the performance gains in AMD chips will be a moot point. In theory, Intel may remain the better buy.Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see AMD maintain viability because of the competition it gives Intel, however, at this point, AMD is a reasonable margin behind Intel and has a lot of ground to make up. Many hardware sites, including this one, maintain that Intel currently has the "value buy" processors at most price points.I am holding out hope that AMD's rehiring of the guy behind K6 and AMD64 means that they are going back to the drawing board for future generation processors that have yet to be announced. If AMD learned its lesson that marketing hype alone cannot make a great processor, then they might just keep such a plan quiet.So where's the fingers crossed smilie??In the meantime, it will be a while before I build again, so I will keep an eye on developments, however, without plans to buy.[/citation]

I couldn't possibly agree more. I'm not a diehard fan of either company so I'll agree completely with your analysis. Intel has been putting out huge performance gains in 15-18 month intervals while simultaneously migrating key parts of the chipset into the CPU itself. Intel definitely does have a massive advantage over AMD at all price points over $100. Given that their products are essentially substitutes for each other this puts AMD in a very precarious position.

The current AMD APUs are only viable for extremely budget oriented gamers and those in developing countries. At every other price point there's an Intel CPU which offers better compute power and enough graphical power to do what the owner intends for it.

Bulldozer may end up being AMD's Netburst. After Netburst Intel went back to the drawing board and pulled out the good old P6 plans which were used to create Core and Core 2.
 
[citation][nom]teh_chem[/nom]I'm not disagreeing with the principles of potentially being able to clock up with greater power efficiency, or even moreso with a die shrink. But it's difficult to take the PPW and translate it to greater performance without a huge grain of salt. Especially after the initial claims of Trinity over Llano before Trinity's release. Where modest gains were claimed pre-release, only marginal gains were observed post-release. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to believe higher performance, but despite my on-going high-hopes for AMD, I'll wait for the released product before I believe it. PPW claims aside.[/citation]

Marginal? Trinity is quite an improvement over Llano. Not in performance at the same frequency, but it can clock much higher at the same power consumption. That's an improvement.

[citation][nom]mmstick[/nom]Check out Ivy Bridge, and see it's shrink from 32nm to 22nm only yielding 5% improvement.[/citation]

Die shrinks don't improve performance. They drop power consumption and die area. The performance improvements come from tweaking of the Sandy Bridge architecture.
 
[citation][nom]Pinhedd[/nom]I couldn't possibly agree more. I'm not a diehard fan of either company so I'll agree completely with your analysis. Intel has been putting out huge performance gains in 15-18 month intervals while simultaneously migrating key parts of the chipset into the CPU itself. Intel definitely does have a massive advantage over AMD at all price points over $100. Given that their products are essentially substitutes for each other this puts AMD in a very precarious position.The current AMD APUs are only viable for extremely budget oriented gamers and those in developing countries. At every other price point there's an Intel CPU which offers better compute power and enough graphical power to do what the owner intends for it.Bulldozer may end up being AMD's Netburst. After Netburst Intel went back to the drawing board and pulled out the good old P6 plans which were used to create Core and Core 2.[/citation]

AMD's modular architecture is an incredible architecture. It's much better than how well Haswell is probably going to be (which is already great). The huge performance and power consumption issues are purely from it's deplorable implementation in the die designs. All AMD has to keep doing is tweaking the designs until they are proper. They have enough problems to fix to last them another three or four generations even if they don't do any die shrinks in that time period. Including die shrinks too, the modular architecture might be here for more than six to eight generations before AMD finally needs to make a whole new architecture. That's how good it is and how bad its implementation is in Bulldozer.

Also, I disagree with you about AMD not competing with Intel. AMD is competing well all the way up to the LGA 1155 i7s in highly and lightly threaded performance. For example, take an FX-61xx or an FX-81xx CPU. Disable one core per module (a substantial boost in performance per Hz per core and a shy-rocketing of power efficiency because it eliminates resource sharing problems while simultaneously decreasing power consumption by 30-40%), overclock CPU frequency, and overclock CPU/NB frequency (controls the L3 cache frequency which defaults at 2.2GHz. Not a good thing for performance to have your cache at a low frequency).

The 61xx CPUs can soar past the i3s and easily compete with the non K edition i5s that are much more expensive ad the 81xx CPUs can fight it out with the K edition i5s. Sure, they're effectively turned into triple and quad core parts, but their performance per Hz per core is so much higher thanks to the elimination of resoruce sharing and the substantial improvement of the L3 cache frequency and they can overclock so far because of having half the core count that they can compete with Sandy and Ivy Bridge in performance per core quite well.

Without the core-configuration mod, the 81xx CPUs can compete with the i7s in highly threaded performance quite well too. So, it isn't until the LGA 2011 CPUs that AMD is actually unable to compete and even then, if you could take a 12 core Interlagos CPU and use the same tricks and overclocking as you can with the FX CPUs, then AMD would still be able to compete there too.

If you know how to use their CPUs, AMD can be the top value and compete in performance in any price range at or below about $300 for a consumer CPU. Sure, you shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get respectable performance from AMD's CPUs, but we shouldn't ignore these options just because they are a little less convenient than mere overclocking with Intel. I don't blame people for not recognizing this not because of many a person's laziness, but because AMD themselves are too stupid to know that they are still competitive. It should be embarrassing for them.
 
[citation][nom]ashinms[/nom]...and? So long as AMD doesn't decrease TDP by 15 percent, you should get your 15% performance.[/citation]

Power consumption and frequency aren't necessarily linearly related. Power consumption goes up exponentially with linearly increased voltage that allows for higher frequency. Also, TDP doesn't directly correlate with true power consumption either. I'm not say that your wrong about there being a performance enhancement if the power efficiency is raised and power consumption remains the same, just that your numbers might be inaccurate.
 
amd needs to make a presence in the mobile market a entry level i7qm is about 269 and it really is a desktop replacement. the i7 mobile is true Performance per watt, I wish to see AMD put out similar performance at least havbe someting equal to intel's entry i7 for Spock sakes
 
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]AMD's modular architecture is an incredible architecture. It's much better than how well Haswell is probably going to be (which is already great). The huge performance and power consumption issues are purely from it's deplorable implementation in the die designs. All AMD has to keep doing is tweaking the designs until they are proper. They have enough problems to fix to last them another three or four generations even if they don't do any die shrinks in that time period. Including die shrinks too, the modular architecture might be here for more than six to eight generations before AMD finally needs to make a whole new architecture. That's how good it is and how bad its implementation is in Bulldozer.Also, I disagree with you about AMD not competing with Intel. AMD is competing well all the way up to the LGA 1155 i7s in highly and lightly threaded performance. For example, take an FX-61xx or an FX-81xx CPU. Disable one core per module (a substantial boost in performance per Hz per core and a shy-rocketing of power efficiency because it eliminates resource sharing problems while simultaneously decreasing power consumption by 30-40%), overclock CPU frequency, and overclock CPU/NB frequency (controls the L3 cache frequency which defaults at 2.2GHz. Not a good thing for performance to have your cache at a low frequency).The 61xx CPUs can soar past the i3s and easily compete with the non K edition i5s that are much more expensive ad the 81xx CPUs can fight it out with the K edition i5s. Sure, they're effectively turned into triple and quad core parts, but their performance per Hz per core is so much higher thanks to the elimination of resoruce sharing and the substantial improvement of the L3 cache frequency and they can overclock so far because of having half the core count that they can compete with Sandy and Ivy Bridge in performance per core quite well.Without the core-configuration mod, the 81xx CPUs can compete with the i7s in highly threaded performance quite well too. So, it isn't until the LGA 2011 CPUs that AMD is actually unable to compete and even then, if you could take a 12 core Interlagos CPU and use the same tricks and overclocking as you can with the FX CPUs, then AMD would still be able to compete there too.If you know how to use their CPUs, AMD can be the top value and compete in performance in any price range at or below about $300 for a consumer CPU. Sure, you shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get respectable performance from AMD's CPUs, but we shouldn't ignore these options just because they are a little less convenient than mere overclocking with Intel. I don't blame people for not recognizing this not because of many a person's laziness, but because AMD themselves are too stupid to know that they are still competitive. It should be embarrassing for them.[/citation]

Bulldozer is an interesting architecture but I'd stop short of calling it incredible. It's a CISC implementation of a RISC architecture that was abandoned in the mid 1990s by a now defunct electronics company. The fact that no one has bothered to touch it since then should tell you that it may have been left well enough alone for a good reason.

Sure it can trade blows with the top end Sandybridge quad core processors in the specific class of applications that the CMT architecture was designed to excel in but not only does it fail to beat them, it does so while drawing an addition 40 to 50 watts of power. Across a wider range of tests it falls behind by quite a bit and still has higher power consumption.

Disabling half the processor cores may reduce the severe bottleneck introduced by the shared resources but it's also a sign that AMD ignored something that should have been extremely obvious early in development. Overclocking is an even worse approach because it takes the device out of specification, increases instability, voids the warranty, and greatly increases the chances of hardware failure.

Bulldozer is an interesting idea but as a computer engineer myself I really fail to see what they were trying to accomplish by selling it to desktop users as a performance processor. The number of basic engineering and marketing mistakes that they made is outstanding. Sure they could spend the next 3-4 years fixing all of these mistakes in 10%-15% increments but at the same time Intel will also be pumping out Haswell and subsequently Skylake.

Intel spent a lot of time reworking their business process so as to avoid repeating the mistakes they made by investing too heavily in the Netburst architecture and so far it has paid off quite nicely. Now, AMD needs to do the same.
 
[citation][nom]Pinhedd[/nom]Bulldozer is an interesting architecture but I'd stop short of calling it incredible. It's a CISC implementation of a RISC architecture that was abandoned in the mid 1990s by a now defunct electronics company. The fact that no one has bothered to touch it since then should tell you that it may have been left well enough alone for a good reason.Sure it can trade blows with the top end Sandybridge quad core processors in the specific class of applications that the CMT architecture was designed to excel in but not only does it fail to beat them, it does so while drawing an addition 40 to 50 watts of power. Across a wider range of tests it falls behind by quite a bit and still has higher power consumption.Disabling half the processor cores may reduce the severe bottleneck introduced by the shared resources but it's also a sign that AMD ignored something that should have been extremely obvious early in development. Overclocking is an even worse approach because it takes the device out of specification, increases instability, voids the warranty, and greatly increases the chances of hardware failure.Bulldozer is an interesting idea but as a computer engineer myself I really fail to see what they were trying to accomplish by selling it to desktop users as a performance processor. The number of basic engineering and marketing mistakes that they made is outstanding. Sure they could spend the next 3-4 years fixing all of these mistakes in 10%-15% increments but at the same time Intel will also be pumping out Haswell and subsequently Skylake.Intel spent a lot of time reworking their business process so as to avoid repeating the mistakes they made by investing too heavily in the Netburst architecture and so far it has paid off quite nicely. Now, AMD needs to do the same.[/citation]

Overclocking isn't introducing instability if you do it properly, it doesn't void the warranty because you'd have to be an idiot to tell AMD or whomever else handles the warranty that you overclocked and they can't know for sure that you did, and I would go as far as saying that the Bulldozer arch is incredible.

It is held back to an extreme by the poor design implementation. A fully optimal design, even without eliminating the resource-sharing, would probably beat Haswell. Yes, it's not perfect, but no arch is. Improved scheduling would help with the apparent bottle-neck greatly (while, as I've previously said, not being a perfect solution unless combined with improved Turbo features) and AMD could simply improve the front-end for that. Also, I call it an apparent bottle-neck because it is more deceptive than you claim.

You seem to not realize that it isn't really a bottle-neck because it is two core's worth of resources that two cores share. Giving a single core two core's worth of resources is bound to improve performance, but is it really a bottle-neck to duplicate resources and share them compared to duplicating them and letting a single core use them? Only in the sense that it can improve performance to do it. Point is that it isn't a hindrance as much as it is a feature to improve things.

Beyond that, having the extra die area that goes unused (the disabled cores) when you disable cores on a Bulldozer CPU means that the power consumption and heat generation is reduced, yet still spread accross the chip quite well. This helps with cooling a little because the inactive parts consume almost no power, so they act somewhat like a heat sink for the heat generated by active parts of the CPU.

Also, since Bulldozer can be worked with to compete with Ivy Bridge exceptionally well and Piledriver seems to be a substantial improvement almost as great as Haswell is expected to be if not as good as Haswell is to be, if AMD really can keep up this cycle, then they can actually surpass Intel if Intel doesn't get into gear beyond this mere tick-tock schedule that is, although pretty effective, not a very quick way to advance in performance if Intel uses paste on each tick.
 
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Overclocking isn't introducing instability if you do it properly, it doesn't void the warranty because you'd have to be an idiot to tell AMD or whomever else handles the warranty that you overclocked and they can't know for sure that you did, and I would go as far as saying that the Bulldozer arch is incredible.[/citation]

Overclocking absolutely does introduce instability. It takes the processor outside of the specification and outside of the testing parameters performed by the manufacturer. Taking it outside of the specification introduces additional strain on connected components. Many errors that may occur due to overclocking might not even be noticed because they're corrected automatically.

To make matters worse, the VID that is programmed into the processor at manufacturing time leaves enough voltage headroom to guarantee stability for the duration of the warranty and ideally a long time after. Most overclocking guides have the user find the lowest voltage which is stable for a narrow range of tests. Over time this voltage will become insufficient and at that point it's not a matter of whether or not an error will occur but when. Stability can usually be restored by simply bumping the voltage up but this is a constant game of cat and mouse.

Overclocking is also a complete no-go area for enterprise and business computing which is where Bulldozer is supposed to excel. Opteron's are barely used at all outside of large supercomputers. Right now Intel has a larger share in the server and workstation market than they do in the desktop market.

They could tell if you overclocked the CPU if they really wanted to. Comparing an output frequency from a PLL against a reference frequency burned into the CPU at manufacturing would be a trivial component to design. Committing warranty fraud is frowned upon.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]It is held back to an extreme by the poor design implementation. A fully optimal design, even without eliminating the resource-sharing, would probably beat Haswell. Yes, it's not perfect, but no arch is. Improved scheduling would help with the apparent bottle-neck greatly (while, as I've previously said, not being a perfect solution unless combined with improved Turbo features) and AMD could simply improve the front-end for that. Also, I call it an apparent bottle-neck because it is more deceptive than you claim.

You seem to not realize that it isn't really a bottle-neck because it is two core's worth of resources that two cores share. Giving a single core two core's worth of resources is bound to improve performance, but is it really a bottle-neck to duplicate resources and share them compared to duplicating them and letting a single core use them? Only in the sense that it can improve performance to do it. Point is that it isn't a hindrance as much as it is a feature to improve things.[/citation]

You're right, it is held back by extremely poor design implementation. If it was so easy to implement properly then why wasn't it implemented properly in the first place?

The execution resources aren't shared between the clusters in each module. Each module has its own front end and back end. If one cluster is disabled, those resources are not made available to the other cluster in the module. The only parts that are shared between the clusters in the module are the L2 cache, L1 instruction cache, and a pair of gimped FPUs. Bulldozer's CMT implementation is not the same as Intel's SMT implementation. With one SMT thread disabled, the entire core's execution resources can still be used because only the front-end is duplicated. With a CMT cluster disabled, the backend resources dedicated to the disabled cluster are lost as well.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Beyond that, having the extra die area that goes unused (the disabled cores) when you disable cores on a Bulldozer CPU means that the power consumption and heat generation is reduced, yet still spread accross the chip quite well. This helps with cooling a little because the inactive parts consume almost no power, so they act somewhat like a heat sink for the heat generated by active parts of the CPU.[/citation]

The thermal conductivity of the oxides used in the insulator layer is extremely low. In microprocessors the current flows almost entirely across the surface of the chip so it's in very close proximity to the highly conductive IHS. This is one of the primary reasons why chips are 2 dimensional, current semiconductor technology does not allow for stacked semiconductors to be cooled properly.

Disabling half the cores may significantly reduce heat dissipation but it will only eliminate some of the heat generating components. The rest will still generate heat and this heat will be spread to the IHS where it can dissipate more effectively.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Also, since Bulldozer can be worked with to compete with Ivy Bridge exceptionally well and Piledriver seems to be a substantial improvement almost as great as Haswell is expected to be if not as good as Haswell is to be, if AMD really can keep up this cycle, then they can actually surpass Intel if Intel doesn't get into gear beyond this mere tick-tock schedule that is, although pretty effective, not a very quick way to advance in performance if Intel uses paste on each tick[/citation]

Phenom was supposed to beat the QX9650 into the ground. The X4 9600 got demolished by a Q6600. Phenom II's flagship 980 was supposed to beat Sandybridge but could barely keep up with midrange Nehalem processors. Bulldozer can barely keep up with Phenom II in some applications. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

I'm not sure how you can say that "Bulldozer can be worked to compete with Ivy Bridge exceptionally well" when there's a load of benchmarks, both synthetic and real world, showing otherwise. Piledriver is a nice improvement but it's what Bulldozer should have been released as. AMD needs to continuously deliver on gains that are larger than Intel's. If they do not, the gap will continue to widen.
 
[citation][nom]vistaofdoom[/nom]Good troll there...[/citation]

not necessarily a troll, as long as he/she is talking abt the igpu performance
 
[citation][nom]Pinhedd[/nom]Overclocking absolutely does introduce instability. It takes the processor outside of the specification and outside of the testing parameters performed by the manufacturer. Taking it outside of the specification introduces additional strain on connected components. Many errors that may occur due to overclocking might not even be noticed because they're corrected automatically.To make matters worse, the VID that is programmed into the processor at manufacturing time leaves enough voltage headroom to guarantee stability for the duration of the warranty and ideally a long time after. Most overclocking guides have the user find the lowest voltage which is stable for a narrow range of tests. Over time this voltage will become insufficient and at that point it's not a matter of whether or not an error will occur but when. Stability can usually be restored by simply bumping the voltage up but this is a constant game of cat and mouse.Overclocking is also a complete no-go area for enterprise and business computing which is where Bulldozer is supposed to excel .[/citation]+1 Overclocker are minority in the CPU market. Casual user are not going to buy a product only to go back home to mess with BIOS settings reading online guides about how to tweak their hardwares. There is a whole reason why Intel choose not to bother the TIM applied on Ivy bridge, because Ivy bridge working within the stock spec are working better use less power. It is all that Intel wanted. Offering only 2 models "K" Ivy series is just there as a "Toy" product for the minority overclockers just to keep them happy.

Comparing an OCed AMD to Intel Stock is just absurd. Intel CPU can OC too. A OCed 4.5-5GHz "K" SB/Ivy are beating Bulldozer into the ground. AMD does not beat Intel in general applications on stock settings, face the reality. people need to wake up from their illusion.
 
As for process I don't see steamroller being on any die process better than 28nm, this is due to the integration with GCN level graphics cores, from hearsay it is said to be Cape Verde level integration which is a massive step forward in iGPU performance.

As much as people go on about Intels per core advantage, AMD's core design is targeting the future of heterogeneous and cloud computing, multithreaded performance is rather impressive and they are leaving Intel far behind in iGPU performance, consider Haswell will likely be only competitive with Llano.
 
15% improvement means that AMD will actually be further behind Intel in performance, by the time this comes out. It's not like Intel CPUs will remain only as good as they are today. They will also improve by at least 15%! And 15% on a smaller performance number (AMD) is not as much an improvement as 15% on a higher performance number (Intel), if you get what I mean. Hence, AMD will actually be further behind than it is today... I miss the days when new generation CPU's would be 50% or more faster than previous generations. AMD needs to pull off that kind of improvement to get close to Intel again. I really hope it eventually does, before going out of business...
 
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