Animal Planet's "Dragons"

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:15:34 -0500, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns96246BCCA6EBmastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135...
>> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
>> news:BMadnSQGDevtB97fRVn-3g@comcast.com:
>>
>> > Nope, but it's not terribly "predatory" to snag a fish who isn't
>> > even aware of your prescence.
>>
>> Oh, now prey have to be aware of the predator for the predator to
>> be considered a predator in your mind? And then you wonder why people
>> think you know nothing.
>
>No, but a cat catching a fish would be akin to aliens nabbing humans with a
>transport beam from outer space, at least from the fish's perspective.
>"what the... whut happened?" Yes, it's "predatory" to do such things, but
>it's hardly sporting. 😉

Since when was being sporting involved? Predators try to make their
"fights" as lopsidedly unfair as possible. To do anything else would be
taking a major risk of serious injury every time they tried to eat. A
broken leg in the animal world is tantamount to a death sentence: they try
to avoid it.

 

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"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f2dnatbUNPtJtnfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1ZednSADSe9sNtnfRVn-pQ@comcast.com...
>
> > But when one says "think of a predator", the first
> > thing to pop into people's head is generally NOT a filter feeder.
Lions,
> > tigers, and bears, oh my!
>
> "The first thing to pop into people's head" is not what defines a word,
> dumbass. Otherwise, no one other than you in this forum could be defined
as
> a dumbass, for example.

Did I say it defines the word? No, I didn't. It helps people to envision
the concept. People have an image of what a predator is, and if you ask
people to think of something that reminds them of a predator, I'd lay big
money on that predator thought of NOT being a filter feeder.

People think of examples to formulate an abstract into a concrete idea,
mainly because it's how human beings process information. We do NOT tend to
think in abstracts, meaning that speaking in abstracts only leads to
problems like we're having right now. You seem unwilling to accept that
people don't tend to think abstractly, and we're talking about an abstract
concept. Speaking in terms that are more familiar tends to bring concepts
into clear vision, even though people here seem to want to take everything
as if it were gospel when it's spoken.

> > As noted, there are many creatures on the planet that are technically
> > predatory, but they are low enough on the food chain that people don't
> > have
> > them immediately spring to mind when one says "predator".
>
> Irrelevant, as usual.

Not irrelevant. Very relevant. You guys are laying down definitions of
predator that would allow ANY creature, EXCEPT the very BOTTOM of the food
chain, to be considered a predator. While technically correct, it's hardly
a valuable thing to make that observation.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Dan" <Boone@Daniel.com> wrote in message
news:aok941do2660s2pnr7rul08g66jvstcnaj@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:25:30 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
> <autockr@comcast.net> gibbered into the void:
>
> >"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:Bd6dnVOzrLDrRd7fRVn-pw@comcast.com...
> >> > Is a BEAR a predator?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> > They eat a vast assortment of stuff, and do not
> >> > require the consumption of other organisms to survive.
> >>
> >> Irrelevant. Do they capture and consume other organisms to sustain
life?
> >> Yes.
> >
> >Well, it's not required in any way. Are they therefore sustaining their
> >lives by predation? Nope. They do not require the sustenance provided
by
> >other organisms in order to sustain life. They're just getting a tasty
> >morsel every once in a while.
> >
> >> > They can survive quite nicely on vegetation indefinitely,
> >>
> >> So? That is completely irrelevant. Omnivores can certainly be
predators.
> >
> >Not if they don't require the sustenance so gained from predation. Not
> >according to the definition you have given.
> >
> >> > I assume you'd choose predator, and further refine your definition to
> >> > allow
> >> > for the non-exclusivity of diet.
> >>
> >> That is not necessary. A creature either meets the test, or not.
> >
> >Then anything that has ever ingested another organism, regardless of
whether
> >it sustains their life or not, is a predator. Hello predatory cows.
>
> Think about motivation. A cow happens upon an untouched field.
> "OOOH," it thinks, "GRASS!!!" Darn. It ate a bug while enjoying its
> normal meal.
>
> Predator? No. Come on.
>
> A bear happens upon a stream on the way to getting to a nearby orchard
> to go bother a beehive. "OOOH," it thinks, "SALMON!!!" It chooses to
> capture and consume the fish in lieu of the honey. Or perhaps as a
> dietary supplement, but you can see the difference.
>
> Or maybe you can't.
>
> The bear is a PREDATOR. It consciously (instinctively?) goes after
> another animal. It needn't, but sometimes it does.
>
> I defy you to classify a bear confronting you in the woods as a
> non-predator because sometimes it DOESN'T eat live meat. Perhaps you
> can type a message to Usenet in its stomach.
>
> Or maybe you can't.

There's an awful lot of misconception taking place. I am playing devil's
advocate, here. I know bears are predators and cows are not, I'm simply
using examples to point out flaws in the definitions being used.

Bottom line, I *KNOW* if something is a predator, the only difference here
is that I differentiate between passive and active predators. It's a value
judgement that I'm more than willing to make.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:RuudnV4U-rkZ1djfRVn-rw@comcast.com...

> There's an awful lot of misconception taking place.

On your part, yes.

> I am playing devil's advocate, here.

No. You are playing Humpty Dumpty.

> I know bears are predators and cows are not, I'm simply
> using examples to point out flaws in the definitions being used.

No, you are showing your lack of comprehension regarding the definitions
provided.

> Bottom line, I *KNOW* if something is a predator,

Somehow, that is doubtful.

> the only difference here is that I differentiate between passive
> and active predators.

Yeah, right. Somehow, you didn't start using those terms until someone else
did. Somehow, you have forgotten that you claimed condors and vultures are
not predators, yet eagles are. Anyone else smell a weasel?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:10:02 GMT, "John Phillips"
<jsphillips1@worldnet.att.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> So when walking through the words have you ever yelled "RUN!! ITS A COW!!!"

When walking through the fields "RUN!! IT'S A BULL!!!" is not unheard
of.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:29:44 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Yes, I've watched cats hunt, the stalking bit is generally moving into
> position to wait briefly for their prey to be-bop by. It *IS* active
> predation, because while they may get cautious and still at the very end,
> they still put themselves in position to make that pounce.

What do you think a person, or a bear, or a cat, or a deer, that waits
by or in a river for the salmon to cruise by is doing?

> Ususally because they are the ones killing things that are quite large and
> able to survive massive injuries and still put up a fight.

Except that gnus don't usually fight - they run. The same applies for
most zebras (the stallion will fight, but they are not the preferred
prey of dogs - I wonder why?)


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:24:06 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
scribed into the ether:

>On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:29:44 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
><autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Yes, I've watched cats hunt, the stalking bit is generally moving into
>> position to wait briefly for their prey to be-bop by. It *IS* active
>> predation, because while they may get cautious and still at the very end,
>> they still put themselves in position to make that pounce.
>
>What do you think a person, or a bear, or a cat, or a deer, that waits
>by or in a river for the salmon to cruise by is doing?

Being unsportsmanlike, apparently. Although in the case of the deer, I'd
imagine he was just drinking. Was that a deliberate inclusion?

>> Ususally because they are the ones killing things that are quite large and
>> able to survive massive injuries and still put up a fight.
>
>Except that gnus don't usually fight - they run. The same applies for
>most zebras (the stallion will fight, but they are not the preferred
>prey of dogs - I wonder why?)

They use their teeth, too...nasty buggers, zebras. Most predators leave
them alone, actually. Crocs are the big exception, since the crocs have a
major tactical advantage in the water.

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:gae941pocmuseda2udnsvdk933d9od54g0@4ax.com...
> What do you think a person, or a bear, or a cat, or a deer, that waits
> by or in a river for the salmon to cruise by is doing?

Deer eat fish? That's news to me. Kinda thought they were partial to salt,
myself...

But anyways, fishing from outside the water is rarely more than waiting for
one to swim by, no matter what's doing the fishing. The stalking done on
land has elements of tracking and active positioning involved. It's more
active than just "is there a fish there?"

> > Ususally because they are the ones killing things that are quite large
and
> > able to survive massive injuries and still put up a fight.
>
> Except that gnus don't usually fight - they run. The same applies for
> most zebras (the stallion will fight, but they are not the preferred
> prey of dogs - I wonder why?)

"Put up a fight" is used in a very limited manner. Kicking and whatnot,
until they are overwhelmed, that's about as much fight as most large
antelope put up against predators that hunt them. But make no mistake about
it, they can kick pretty hard, especially the larger ones. Ever seen a cape
buffalo kick the snot out of a few lions? It's pretty impressive to see
"the king of the jungle" take triple axle about a hundred feet across the
savanna.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7cmdnWWq95M9oNjfRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:gae941pocmuseda2udnsvdk933d9od54g0@4ax.com...
>> What do you think a person, or a bear, or a cat, or a deer, that waits
>> by or in a river for the salmon to cruise by is doing?
>
> Deer eat fish? That's news to me. Kinda thought they were partial to
> salt,
> myself...
>
> But anyways, fishing from outside the water is rarely more than waiting
> for
> one to swim by, no matter what's doing the fishing. The stalking done on
> land has elements of tracking and active positioning involved. It's more
> active than just "is there a fish there?"

Add this to the list of things you know nothing about.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:22:24 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Hell, the only one I can think of is "human with a .50 caliber rifle," and
> that does not really qualify because of the tool use.

He said '10 times it's size", not "10 times it's weight". That makes
whalers about the only canidates, and they worked in teams.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:4ge9419rg93ggfgkd1f4nhv0ffn7d6jcvq@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:22:24 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Hell, the only one I can think of is "human with a .50 caliber rifle,"
>> and
>> that does not really qualify because of the tool use.
>
> He said '10 times it's size", not "10 times it's weight".

I was being generous.

> That makes whalers about the only canidates, and they worked in teams.

You could always try whaling from a dingy with a .50 caliber rifle. Then
again, I highly doubt you'd "win every time".

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mYGdnSGexJoaydjfRVn-hg@comcast.com...
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>> So what is it that polar bears take that's 10 times their size?
>
> Whales.

This ought to be good. Provide proof that polar bears take on whales for
food. Whales ten times their size, no less. Note that scavenging whale
carcasses, which they *do* eat, does not count. Or, you could take the easy
route and admit you were talking out of your ass.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:08:05 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> So, now stealth is an invalid means of being a predator. That disqualifies,
> among other animals...Leopards, who exclusively attack from ambush.

It also means that when a lion sneaks into your camp, kills someone
with a bite to the brain, and carries them off with no-one the wiser,
they haven't just preyed upon human beings.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:iie941dava7ip5qv3pt0vdujkopp65nfbv@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:08:05 GMT, Matt Frisch
> <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > So, now stealth is an invalid means of being a predator. That
disqualifies,
> > among other animals...Leopards, who exclusively attack from ambush.
>
> It also means that when a lion sneaks into your camp, kills someone
> with a bite to the brain, and carries them off with no-one the wiser,
> they haven't just preyed upon human beings.

You have no clue how big lions are, do you? They aren't exactly silent,
dude. And yes, I have been within feet of wild lions, in South Africa.
They aren't afraid of humans, so they wouldn't carry a human off to eat it,
they would just eat it right there. They are the top of the food chain, and
they know it.

I can envision a cheetah doing what you're suggesting, a leopard as well,
both being solitary hunters that must move their prey to protect their kills
from scavengers and other predators, but lions don't worry about such
things.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:g8ednde8AOjZ39jfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:iie941dava7ip5qv3pt0vdujkopp65nfbv@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:08:05 GMT, Matt Frisch
>> <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>>
>> > So, now stealth is an invalid means of being a predator. That
> disqualifies,
>> > among other animals...Leopards, who exclusively attack from ambush.
>>
>> It also means that when a lion sneaks into your camp, kills someone
>> with a bite to the brain, and carries them off with no-one the wiser,
>> they haven't just preyed upon human beings.
>
> You have no clue how big lions are, do you? They aren't exactly silent,
> dude. And yes, I have been within feet of wild lions, in South Africa.
> They aren't afraid of humans, so they wouldn't carry a human off to eat
> it,
> they would just eat it right there. They are the top of the food chain,
> and
> they know it.

No, they really aren't. Your ignorance continues to astound, Simba.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:15:34 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> No, but a cat catching a fish would be akin to aliens nabbing humans with a
> transport beam from outer space, at least from the fish's perspective.
> "what the... whut happened?" Yes, it's "predatory" to do such things, but
> it's hardly sporting. 😉

What on Earth makes you think predators are 'sporting'? Most go to
lengths to avoid giving their prey a sporting chance, just as many
prey animals try to avoid giving the predator a sporting chance at
them.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:mbg941d1uo45bta7mpogd5t4bivtqsobd8@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:15:34 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
> <autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > No, but a cat catching a fish would be akin to aliens nabbing humans
with a
> > transport beam from outer space, at least from the fish's perspective.
> > "what the... whut happened?" Yes, it's "predatory" to do such things,
but
> > it's hardly sporting. 😉
>
> What on Earth makes you think predators are 'sporting'? Most go to
> lengths to avoid giving their prey a sporting chance, just as many
> prey animals try to avoid giving the predator a sporting chance at
> them.

How did I know that was coming? 😉

I'm just noting that if it's TOO easy to kill your prey, odds are good
they'll evolve a defense against it, or die out, right? There's an
equilibrium that gets reached, and the equation tends to work out in such a
way that the more difficult your prey is to kill, the better it is
(nutritionally) for you to eat. If it weren't nutritionally good enough to
eat, you wouldn't waste your time chasing it(if it were hard to catch), and
if it was REALLY good for you, but easy to catch, the predators would
survive like fatcats until they killed all the prey, right? Nature has a
way of working out like that.

The sporting part comes in understanding that equation, even if they don't
really concern themselves with sport when it comes to predators and prey.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Jeff Goslin" wrote
> "Dan" wrote
>
> > I defy you to classify a bear confronting you in the woods as a
> > non-predator because sometimes it DOESN'T eat live meat. Perhaps you
> > can type a message to Usenet in its stomach.
> >
> > Or maybe you can't.
>
> There's an awful lot of misconception taking place. I am playing devil's
> advocate, here. I know bears are predators and cows are not, I'm simply
> using examples to point out flaws in the definitions being used.

The problem is not with the definition, the problem is that you can not
understand the definition you provided.
Well, that and you are a weasel.



John

 

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
news:iie941dava7ip5qv3pt0vdujkopp65nfbv@4ax.com:

> It also means that when a lion sneaks into your camp, kills someone
> with a bite to the brain, and carries them off with no-one the wiser,
> they haven't just preyed upon human beings.
>
>

Well, maybe that's why lions aren't known as man killers.

--
Marc

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
news:g8ednde8AOjZ39jfRVn-sQ@comcast.com:

> You have no clue how big lions are, do you? They aren't exactly
> silent, dude. And yes, I have been within feet of wild lions, in
> South Africa. They aren't afraid of humans, so they wouldn't carry
> a human off to eat it, they would just eat it right there

Oh, my gosh, just when I thought you had already said the most
stupid thing in the world, there you go and prove me wrong, by saying
something even more stupid. You have no idea of how lions hunt and
eat.


--
Marc

 

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dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) wrote in news:d22cgk$rrf$1
@knot.queensu.ca:

> How about plains Indians running buffalo off a cliff?
>

Using tools, called spears.

--
Marc

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in news:mYGdnSGexJoaydjfRVn-
hg@comcast.com:

>> So what is it that polar bears take that's 10 times their size?
>
> Whales.
>

Cite, proof?

--
Marc

 

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"Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96256D487D9DFmastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in news:mYGdnSGexJoaydjfRVn-
> hg@comcast.com:
>
> >> So what is it that polar bears take that's 10 times their size?
> >
> > Whales.
> >
>
> Cite, proof?

Beluga whales.
Ok, not ten times the size, but still, it's pretty damn big. 😉

http://www.polarbearsalive.org/faq.php

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J-idnffWgakSJNjfRVn-1A@comcast.com...
> "Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns96256D487D9DFmastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135...
>> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in news:mYGdnSGexJoaydjfRVn-
>> hg@comcast.com:
>>
>> >> So what is it that polar bears take that's 10 times their size?
>> >
>> > Whales.
>> >
>>
>> Cite, proof?
>
> Beluga whales.
> Ok, not ten times the size,

In fact, it is barely twice the size.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
news:17qdnT69O-FzNNnfRVn-tw@comcast.com:

> No, but a cat catching a fish would be akin to aliens nabbing
> humans with a transport beam from outer space, at least from the
> fish's perspective. "what the... whut happened?" Yes, it's
> "predatory" to do such things, but it's hardly sporting. 😉
>
>

Ah, finally, you admit your error. It does qualify as predatory.
Thank you.

--
Marc