Are the rich good for us?

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Understand, the US has been the land of opportunity for a very long time, as we enjoy assets like no other country.
As I said earlier, 70% of all millionaires in this country are new ones.
Having a more centrist and or regulated and taxed government has held back many countries.
Using the European ideal is what many here consider this very thing, controlled, watered down, regulated.
Our GDP is set to grow at double what most countries usually do.
This is no lucky streak, its by design, and many have gained off of it.
The reasons why many here want riches is because its within our grasp.
Name one man within any countries history in the last 20 years whos had the opportunity to raise himself up to the highest position within his country like Obama, or Jimmy Carter, or Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton etc etc
Same goes for business

 

[musical marv]

Understand, the US has been the land of opportunity for a very long time, as we enjoy assets like no other country.
As I said earlier, 70% of all millionaires in this country are new ones.
Having a more centrist and or regulated and taxed government has held back many countries.
Using the European ideal is what many here consider this very thing, controlled, watered down, regulated.
Our GDP is set to grow at double what most countries usually do.
This is no lucky streak, its by design, and many have gained off of it.
The reasons why many here want riches is because its within our grasp.
Name one man within any countries history in the last 20 years whos had the opportunity to raise himself up to the highest position within his country like Obama, or Jimmy Carter, or Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton etc etc
Same goes for business

America is the land of opportunity I agree with you on this.Unfortunately to many are coming in this country taking away our jobs which we need to exist and some go back and enrich their countries with our giving them education and sending our money back so they can gain more income for them and we lose in the long run.Pathetic indeed.

 

[Reynod]

H1B ... we have a similar thing here with the 457 Visa.

 

[dogman_1234]

So, should we restrict our education system then? How about immigration? Too many social issues tied into economic issues.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

The jobs always brought up are citrus picking jobs.
The facts are that the building trades are swamped with illegals.
Those jobs have traditionally paid well, those trade jobs.

Paying to educate illegals, it would seem they should have to pay slightly more, and it would then stop the non fairness, if you will, also, make sure each worker is paying taxes as well.

I dont want people to quit coming, but I do believe they owe this country something extra, somehow, some way.
Be it taxation, volunteer work, something

 

[dogman_1234]

How is it fair that someone from across the oceans who wants to immigrate the US has to wait years and pay thousands in fees/taxes but someone who just walks across a line on a map gets so called "amnesty"? Or free education? Or free healthcare?

"But, but...they had a hard life in ______ country. We should be nice to them and allow them to be citizens!"


This is where the liberal side of me crawls out. i can't stand this that we give illegals a free ride, but a guy form china, india, or germany has to bust his/her/ their ass(es) to get into this country just to get a degree! And, the wait period, if I am not mistaken, is almost 10 years! 10!

I also disagree with the law that says you must have x% of 'minorities'. Look, I know race is an issue, but if someone cannot perform college level work, then they should not go into the institution at all. let it be for someone else who has the skills...not because they are a 'minority'.

 

[musical marv]

The jobs always brought up are citrus picking jobs.
The facts are that the building trades are swamped with illegals.
Those jobs have traditionally paid well, those trade jobs.

Paying to educate illegals, it would seem they should have to pay slightly more, and it would then stop the non fairness, if you will, also, make sure each worker is paying taxes as well.

I dont want people to quit coming, but I do believe they owe this country something extra, somehow, some way.
Be it taxation, volunteer work, something

At least you agree with me partially i see.If you want to stay in the states pay your share like the rest of us do. NO FREE RIDES! They think everything is coming to them free and their attitude stinks as I see this myself everywhere.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Now, take their attitude about the "rich" (people who come from poor countries), and apply it to most people.
Dont the poor or middle class sometimes expect the same?
And arent those attitudes wrong?
Especially about people with money? But also the government?

They dont understand how it works, but they assume theres money, and they deserve some of it as well.
Much like here, and attitudes about the rich and government.

I will say this, if I was in their position, Id be heading for a new border as well, so I dont blame them, but I find it hard to tolerate those who champion for these people, and want to change our language, such as illegal alien etc.

 

[riser]

What about the Koch brothers greedy and for money and power and they hate the Liberals completely.

Show me some liberals who have donated more money than the Koch brothers to charity.

 

[chunkymonster]

I personally believe this is about a general sense of entitlement.

I couldn't agree more. It seems to me that years ago, one man would look at a "rich person" and ask "How do I achieve what he has?", whereas today the attitude seems to be "I do not have what he has, someone should give it to me!" or, "How do take what he has?" or worse yet, "Government is responsible for giving me the same lifestyle!".

This is where politics comes in. Who is is successful, who is rich?

The politics of wealth is a wedge issue and ploy used by progressives in American politics to further socialist/marxist ideologies. Progressives in America have successfully used the Alinksy paradigm of "pick a target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it" to turn hard work and personal wealth accumulation into the cause of and reason for economic disparity. When approximately 50% of American tax payers have a 0% tax liability, only the useful idiots readily believe that taxing the "rich" would equalize economic disparity. Only useful idiots have bought into the progressive and Marxist ideology inundating social thought as any kind of solution facing America today. However, anyone who can think for themselves and are not easily manipulated readily recognizes that wealth is not measured by money, that economic disparity is not solved by wealth redistribution, and that the progressive narrative of the "evil rich people" is a failure.

 

[riser]

My neighbors think I'm rich. I'm single and living on my own. They're married, both working and paying less in rent than I am. They have two incomes compared to my one. They only have one car as well. Combined, they make more than I do.

Yet, they see me as being rich. They have a newer vehicle, they're going on vacation later this week and then going on another one at the end of summer, they just bought a few hundred dollars in flowers, and a lot of summer clothes.. like hundreds of dollars worth.

I'm the rich one though. I suppose this it he case because I'm not spending all my free cash right now. Sure, they're broke now because all their money for the next couple months is already tied up.

I just put tires on my vehicle and bought a new computer.

Again, I'm the rich one.

 

[Crush3d]

Until we live in a society that equally distributes 100% of wealth (hopefully never) there will always be "wealthy" people. The degree may be different in different locales, but the gap will exist. Those that are the "have's" will have to put up with the complaining of the "have not's." It's just the way it is. Unfortunately it is easier to complain, make excuses, and get a free hand out than to work hard and earn your way.

 

[riser]

I refuse to tell people to work hard. Work smart instead. Just because you work hard doesn't mean you're going to earn more money.

 

[wanamingo]

A few quick things before I slowly back away from the news and leisure forum.

@ chunky - When you say 50% of Americans didn't pay taxes, I assume you mean federal taxes? I think it would be interesting to see how many people were too poor to pay federal income tax....

Also the corporate tax rate is closer to 39% when you include state taxes. But when we look at their receipts from paying taxes it only comes to about 12% - 25% of their profits, mainly because of tax havens, loopholes, credits, deductions, foreign accounts you know the drill. Now I know what the next step is, you say "well its the politicians that were voted into office that created the loop-holes!". Or that as a % of GDP corporate taxes are the lowest they have been since 1972.

So how can you close loopholes when a company can spend an unlimited amount of money to elect a politician, and then you have conservative groups calling for less regulation and smaller gov?

I also don't think this debate is about jealousy or entitlement, my personal feeling is why should I be punished for the decisions of large banks (The housing crisis)? And then you have people saying the only way to fix the problem(with a lagging economy) is with lower corporate taxes, and lower taxes for the wealthiest people? I also hate that we have to tell companies its going to be OK, you can start hiring again, and like children the yell back NO! we don't feel comfortable doing that yet, maybe cutting my taxes will put me in a better mood to make some jobs.

 

[wanamingo]

Show me some liberals who have donated more money than the Koch brothers to charity.

Ummm......... Bill Gates, maybe you have heard of him? Or maybe the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

A few quick things before I slowly back away from the news and leisure forum.

@ chunky - When you say 50% of Americans didn't pay taxes, I assume you mean federal taxes? I think it would be interesting to see how many people were too poor to pay federal income tax....

Also the corporate tax rate is closer to 39% when you include state taxes. But when we look at their receipts from paying taxes it only comes to about 12% - 25% of their profits, mainly because of tax havens, loopholes, credits, deductions, foreign accounts you know the drill. Now I know what the next step is, you say "well its the politicians that were voted into office that created the loop-holes!". Or that as a % of GDP corporate taxes are the lowest they have been since 1972.

So how can you close loopholes when a company can spend an unlimited amount of money to elect a politician, and then you have conservative groups calling for less regulation and smaller gov?

I also don't think this debate is about jealousy or entitlement, my personal feeling is why should I be punished for the decisions of large banks (The housing crisis)? And then you have people saying the only way to fix the problem(with a lagging economy) is with lower corporate taxes, and lower taxes for the wealthiest people? I also hate that we have to tell companies its going to be OK, you can start hiring again, and like children the yell back NO! we don't feel comfortable doing that yet, maybe cutting my taxes will put me in a better mood to make some jobs.

mingo, the philosophy is distinct and contrasting.
These profits keep
investment going, people being hired, wages decent etc.
Giving the government the authority to pick and choose where this money goes means theyd better be as good or better than the business people we have.
As for % of GDP, what about sales % of GDP, have they gone up or down, as Im curious, because if sales have gone down, then its no wonder % on taxes are as well.
The reasoning Im hearing for cutting corporate taxes are, to keep jobs here, where imported jobs cant compete with cost of making product here is cheaper due to lowered taxes, and competing abroad, where a slight edge can help.

 

[musical marv]

I refuse to tell people to work hard. Work smart instead. Just because you work hard doesn't mean you're going to earn more money.

Work honestly and you will rewarded right.

 

[riser]

Ummm......... Bill Gates, maybe you have heard of him? Or maybe the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?

First, A liberal he is not. Second, he is donating his money after he dies. He's sitting on tens of billions of dollars and won't give it up until he's dead. That speaks volumes. Though, he has donated plenty of money when he was up in the $80 billion range.

The Koch Brothers donate $12 million a year on average. Bill Gates has donated plenty, but he started a charity asking others to donate their money and he's using that as a basis for philantrophy. Again, other people's money. What's the difference in lifestyle between $10 billion and $30 billion?

Then you take Buffet. He's not donating money, he's donating stock which he controls. One of the richest guys in the world. Also won't give up his fortune until he's dead. Interesting again. How much 'assistance' could he see in his waning years if he donated $40 billion? You do not ask yourself why these people wait until they're dead to donate their money? Wouldn't you want to live to see the changes you were making?

No, there is something else being done here. It doesn't make sense. The Kock brothers and their $11 billion are donating a far greater precent of their money per year than Gates or Buffet. Chew on that.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Heres a good question:
If this is a verdict on the rich here, and its goes into all walks of life, do people then have the same attitudes towards the Kerrys or Kennedys?
Ask yourself, when Kerry ran for president, the MSM brought up his money 2 times in a 4 month period, where we see 27 times in the same time period for the same amount of time for Romney.
This in itself is wrong, and is the main thing driving this entire conversation, because some have decided it makes a difference, yet those same people never said a word when it was one of theirs.

 

[dogman_1234]

Heres a good question:
If this is a verdict on the rich here, and its goes into all walks of life, do people then have the same attitudes towards the Kerrys or Kennedys?
Ask yourself, when Kerry ran for president, the MSM brought up his money 2 times in a 4 month period, where we see 27 times in the same time period for the same amount of time for Romney.
This in itself is wrong, and is the main thing driving this entire conversation, because some have decided it makes a difference, yet those same people never said a word when it was one of theirs.

Are you suggesting that the American people make it a deal about a conservatives wealth over a liberals wealth?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

To some extent, yes.
The MSM, definately, the dems, definately, to inbetween, some, some dont, and even some repubs do as well, just regarding all rich

 

[dogman_1234]

Could it be the general ideology of conservative thinking and those with greater resource allocation be at the from of the conversation due to the idea of how the allocation was come to be!?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Are you suggesting theres almost all rich conservatives, and very few rich libs?

 

[dogman_1234]

No.

What I am suggesting is that many view conservatives as pro-allocative...meaning take as much as you want. Not like robbery,( some liberals see it as robbery ), but the fact that the conservative ideology is to embrace capitalism to the fullest. Many people see this as a possible route to exploitation...deregulation, lower taxes, end to minimum wages, etc...

This is not me speaking. This is the general synopsis of your fellow American; conservative or not.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Well, its been expanded, it doesnt include the work or the worth of such things, and is usually looked upon as a bad thing in todays society, which the hippies held dear in the 60s.
When you focus upon a certain group of people, you never allow for a boxed presentation of them.
Unfortunately, this is exactly whats been happening for awhile.

No one acknowledges the good acts, the hard work, the overall value and contributions to society these people and their hard work, plus their ideas have created.
1 example would be, if not for a bunch of successful millionaires, we wouldnt even consider free health care.
The MSM is extremely guilty of all this, as well as Hollywood and some of our artists.
Whats worse is when they turn a blind eye from those who are of the same mind as them.
Basically, if you play the race card, if you play the sex card, you still have room for the rich card, where it transcends from manys ideological mindset.
It gets votes, it boxes people, and as usual, anything easy isnt worth doing, but playing on prejudice has rewards, as often seen within this group