Are unions good for us?

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I like unions when needed, but whats going on in Wisconsin now is to avoid things like this
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2012/05/derrick_saunders_denver_cop_reinstated_drunk_driving.php
In the private sector, they can be abusive towards common sense, in the public sector, this abuse appears to be all too common

 

[wanamingo]

That depends...... your question is so insanely vague. In certain situations unions are very beneficial.

Do they need to be restructured? Yes.

Do they need to be removed? No.

Is it really fair to say that a corporation gets to maximize profits and the laborer also? People would stay at a responsible company if they were treated fairly. How long would it take for the laws to start favoring corporate profits over employee well being?

 

[Why_Me]

Short answer, yes. Back in the day they made things much better for the average worker.

However, presently they are nothing but a political control wing of the Democrat party which launders hundreds of millions of dollars a year and funnels that money to Democrat candidates for election at the federal, state, and local level. In addition, the union worker paying his dues to x union has no say so where his money goes. That's is wrong.

Pass national right to work legislation to fix this.

"Right to Work" is a bad joke. If someone doesn't like paying their union dues to finance the union then don't join. But to have to work side by side with scabs who want the benefits of the union without paying their way like everyone else is an oxymoron.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Understand tho, if these people have the same rights as the union workers do, then who loses?
If they are working side by side, lets say they want to downsize, or someone in management is a jerk, and they fire one of the right to workers, how long before we see more right to workers joining the union?
I think its an excellent model, keeping the management on their toes

Adding, also it keeps unions from becoming too large and trying to enforce unsustainable rules

 

[Why_Me]

Understand tho, if these people have the same rights as the union workers do, then who loses?
If they are working side by side, lets say they want to downsize, or someone in management is a jerk, and they fire one of the right to workers, how long before we see more right to workers joining the union?
I think its an excellent model, keeping the management on their toes

Right to work employees don't put anything on the line. They don't strike when their told to, they don't pay dues....they contribute a big zero.

Again not all unions are created equal, not all are good, and not all are bad. But speaking from over 20 years in the skilled trades (Iron Workers & now the Pipe Fitters union) I can honestly say that commercial construction work performed by non union workers and sometimes their illegal immigrant counter parts is no where up to par when compared to the union side of it.

Big business loves their non union workers and just as much they love their illegal immigrant slave labor.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

OK, I agree.
I know a little about your trade.
However, out in the field, its very hard to control such things, and which is why I agree.
Im refering more to a factory or brick house model
And especially the public sector model, where abuse is common by unions

 

[dogman_1234]

Unions, in my opinion, serve a purpose: To remind those who employ that we are human and we created the backbone, structure, and organs of the corporate world. Doesn't matter what part of the 'corp. world' you are in!

Here is the deal: Unions should be neutral, like HSV...dormant. They are only allowed when there is stress and can flare up when needed...like an employer is deciding to pay below min wage for the heck of it. When the employer feels the burning pain in their 'mouth', they find ways to sooth it, until it dies down.

 

[Why_Me]

It's not a joke at all. If you want to work as an electrician, or plumber, as an independent contractor in New Jersey guess what? You can't unless you join the union. That's what right to work means. You can work without being forced to join a union.

Hell in Jersey, it's illegal to pump your own gas because of union rules.

I know what "right to work" means and as far as joining a union, that's on a union job which is always commercial job and not residential. If you want to work on a union job site then yes you should have to join the union. If you want to buy your contractors license and bid for jobs then that's anybody's right.

Right to work means that a non union employee can work on a union job site side by side with union employee's yet not pay any union dues. That is what "right to work" means.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

And as I said, this doesnt work.
Its not fair to the union man.
However, within a factory it can, as people arent traveling, the employer wants reliable good work, he has to compete to keep his non union people.
There may be a few advantages to the employer, but depending on the current contract, the non union may be getting treated better as well, in a fair environ.

In the field, anyone can get hired, and usually does, destroying unions and also allowing for illegal work, and as said, often shoddier work

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

A union site is where union people are doing work, where you can find several unions, and their people working.
Sometimes a non union person is allowed, to fill a certain need, but not often and not many.
The owner of the site knows this going in.
He collects bids, and goes from there

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

If its mandated by law, of course there isnt anything that can be done.
In a normal scenario, both union and non union can make bids.
Usually a dev will have certain head contractors they use, and they go from there.
Problem in the trades is, the time and money.
If its shoddy, its too late, so naturally the smaller jobs get some riff raff.
Knowledge is power here, knowing whos who, and then that person has a great chance, depending on bid of course, and size of job etc, of getting the work

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I will say this/
Seeing many of the abuses within the public sector and unions, its shows several things.
The most important is, those who make our laws, and those who recieve monies from unions, and those that dont, each contract is negotiated.
Allowing in wording thru contract of the abuses we see harms the unions in the private sector, and shows how incompetent our elected officials are, as well as shows their willingness to give to those who have supported them in the past, with monies and words.
So, mandating unions should be not allowed, in both cases, then the unions should be supported after this.
Especially in the public sector, where we wouldnt have this problem save for it.
But, one has to agree if not for the public sector unions, we wouldnt have a somewhat strong union force, where it does exist, within the private sector.

Rock and a hard place

 

[Reynod]

I am a proud member of the public sector union here in Australia ... probably a bit different to your PSU over there I guess.

I work hard for my money ... frankly my job is to make money for my employer.

I have a business development role in govt.

Our union has an excellent record.

 

[Reynod]

As our economy is not in the toilet like yours we are not squabbling like children and allowing internal divisions to tear our society apart.

I alrady see rampant nationalism and enough zenophobic behaviour from the US to suggest that is exactly what is happening.

When your broke its easy to find scapegoats ...

 

[jsc]

Well, let's look at auto workers. Let's look at Detroit and the union GM workers and compare them to the nonunion Toyota workers in Lexington, Kentucky.

Or let's look at the Boeing aircraft built in South Carolina. Them there aeroplanes are just fallin' out of the sky left and right due to shoddy workmanship.

 

[Why_Me]

Not all unions can be lumped together. Some unions have done themselves harm, and some have done good.

 

[johnsonma]

Unions were one of the driving factors for the creation of the majority middle class in America, not sure how you can be against them just because a few of them have overstepped their purpose.

 

[johnsonma]

Short answer, yes. Back in the day they made things much better for the average worker.

However, presently they are nothing but a political control wing of the Democrat party which launders hundreds of millions of dollars a year and funnels that money to Democrat candidates for election at the federal, state, and local level. In addition, the union worker paying his dues to x union has no say so where his money goes. That's is wrong.

Pass national right to work legislation to fix this.

Launders hundreds of millions of dollars? Really?!? How you can post this kind of blind rhetoric without at least providing some background information is just senseless and only proves what Reynod said about division in America. They donate to the Democratic party because they support keeping the Unions.

 

[riser]

Unions were one of the driving factors for the creation of the majority middle class in America, not sure how you can be against them just because a few of them have overstepped their purpose.

Actually, that's a Union talking point and a lie. Ask a Union rep and they'll tell you they were the reason we also have a 40 hour work week, not a 50 hour. Again, a lie. Talking points for the Union and they tend to target under educated people to join them.

 

[johnsonma]

Really? Can you prove that the middle class didn't benefit from unions? Can you prove that having a platform from which to negotiate higher wages was not beneficial to the middle class? What about working conditions? Its easy to call everything a lie and then talk about how they target under educated people to join them when usually people join based on where they get a job. It seems you are arguing from ignorance, have you ever been in a Union or seen one in action? I remember when the Coal Miner's union out here was fighting for a cost of living increase when the company had failed to increase the yearly raise when compared to inflation. The same union that protected their jobs when the company switched hands several times during a rough patch. Lots of unions out here for me to pull both good and bad examples from, for the most part they do a good job.

 

[johnsonma]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Money+Laundering

 

[johnsonma]

As fair as taxes.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

The testing done shows working 8 hrs a day is optimal for production, those studies were done long ago.
It wasnt the 40 hr work week, it was child labor, cheap labor etc
The right to fire en masse was eliminated, these are the things that unions brought, plus safer working conditions etc, and were all good, even for the employer.
Now, we look into Europe, and we find 32hr work weeks, 6 weeks off a year etc, and full benefits.
Look whos having trouble.
Contrast that with our more sensible approach here.

There is a tipping point, and the more the government applies such things, whether allowed by the unions, or mandated thru law, and we are close in these tough times.

 

[riser]

Really? Can you prove that the middle class didn't benefit from unions? Can you prove that having a platform from which to negotiate higher wages was not beneficial to the middle class? What about working conditions? Its easy to call everything a lie and then talk about how they target under educated people to join them when usually people join based on where they get a job. It seems you are arguing from ignorance, have you ever been in a Union or seen one in action? I remember when the Coal Miner's union out here was fighting for a cost of living increase when the company had failed to increase the yearly raise when compared to inflation. The same union that protected their jobs when the company switched hands several times during a rough patch. Lots of unions out here for me to pull both good and bad examples from, for the most part they do a good job.

I worked around a lot of Unions. Never for one because I don't believe in mediocracy. While I was working my tail off trying to make my company successful, several of our Union locations wouldn't step up to the plate. We ultimately had to close those locations. Those middle class workers were out of a job. The Union did nothing to help them. When you have production equipment that needs to run at 50% to make a profit, 78% to compete world class, and the Union is putting out 22% production capacity, no one will succeed. I saw this at nearly a dozen of our locations that were Union. Every month we went over the numbers and the locations that always performed the worst were Union controlled facilities. Our non-Union locations were paid better and had higher performance ratings. Because their performance was higher, they were paid more. Whereas low performers couldn't get paid more because they were bleeding money.

My neighborhood fell apart because all of the UAW workers who were overpaid and unable to find a job to even remotely match their overpaid rates. My neighbor was pulling in $70k a year moving transmissions from one line to the other line. It could have been a machine doing that but being Union controlled they had her doing it. She took a buy out of $140k and was broke a few months later. She didn't have a skillset. She eventually took a part time job for $11 working at a hospital in Accounts Payable. Basic stuff. No where near that $70k a year mark for basic work.

 

[johnsonma]

Yup, and public employee union dues? A double money laundering scam! Democrats have figured our an ingenius way of funding their campaigns with tax payer dollars. Laundering through and through.

This is indefensible. The fact that you even try speaks volumes. Showing your true colors there john.

The fact you constantly say the same thing over and over again shows exactly what your about OMG. I wish you would of read the definition of money laundering, it would really help you out. Since you have put yourself in a corner and plugged your ears with your this is "indefensible" comment I guess there is nothing more to say to you.

I will say to everyone else that Unions were a staple of America back in the glory days that the Republicans keep saying that want to return to. Maybe they have run their course under some sectors but others still use them and thrive.