News Arm Pioneer: Nvidia's Grace CPU Is Proof That It Will 'Compete Unfairly'

[watzupken]

But I wonder whether ownership of ARM would not incentivize nVidia to direct R&D of ARM towards proprietary stuff, i.e. further develop ARM such that it would only or mostly benefit nVidias proprietary IP?

I may be jumping to conclusions here, but that is surely an obvious issue with Nvidia owning ARM. Otherwise, I don't see any point in them acquiring ARM @ 40 billion when they are already licensed to use ARM technology? The intention is very clear even though Nvidia denies it.

 

[VforV]

I may be jumping to conclusions here, but that is surely an obvious issue with Nvidia owning ARM. Otherwise, I don't see any point in them acquiring ARM @ 40 billion when they are already licensed to use ARM technology? The intention is very clear even though Nvidia denies it.

Indeed, although the argument of this topic is silly (NVlink), the real question is what about in the long term, how much will nvidia change Arm that eventually in 5 or 10 years this argument will be valid, but in other aspects?

That being said, I don't see this deal not happening and I rather see stronger competition vs x86, even though I don't like nvidia for what they did lately (GPUs related lies and stuff), I dislike google & apple more.

 

[SuperNipples]

In summary,

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

 

[Jim90]

As we all know, Nvidia could have produced this chip without purchasing ARM. No, they have their eyes on something entirely different - their numerous shocking anti-competitive historical practices should be raising serious alarm bells amongst those in the know, and I'll assume that includes the tech readership.

 

[ginthegit]

Any company can license ARM's IP and then put together semi-custom silicon with whatever proprietary extra stuff they want tacked on or even license just the ISA with essential supporting IP then build their own CPU from scratch with any proprietary extensions they want for their specific application. Nvidia putting together their own CPU with its own proprietary 900GB/s interface doesn't take away other ARM licensees' ability to do the same.

I actually Agree with you here! We have a company already doing its own exclusive interconnect in the form of AMD. It also creates its own CPUs and GPUs and interconnects. If anything it levels the playing field.

The only Downside is that it will encourage theindustry to move to the Nvidia inside as the standard GPU, instead of Mali etc But this is just normal practice. This is not monopalistic at all. It is business as normal.

This is all a non issue, the guy just fears his job position, and is trying to scare the British Politicians into not approving the deal, by talking Fear at a level they will not understand!

 

[ginthegit]

NVIDIA makes Tegra, they have their own ARM implementation in Project Denver, and they're exploring a RISC-V implementation (though they've made a custom RISC CPU named FALCON), so NVIDIA does indeed make SoCs and CPUs. They don't make modems, sure, but neither does most of the other ARM developers (the only that makes their own ARM CPU core and a modem is Qualcomm).

So it would definitely be in NVIDIA's interest to buy ARM. And I would have the same position as I do against NVIDIA if Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, MediaTek, or any of ARM's other licensees wanted to buy them.

This is also true, as they already have their own iteration.

This is fear porn because the guy fears his job position.

 

[ginthegit]

As we all know, Nvidia could have produced this chip without purchasing ARM. No, they have their eyes on something entirely different - their numerous shocking anti-competitive historical practices should be raising serious alarm bells amongst those in the know, and I'll assume that includes the tech readership.

Now you have a point here. Nvidia like Intel, do have a history of litigation. They will certainly change the Mali Graphics into its own.

But all Arm vendors, including Apple, until recently, had their own graphics in PowerVR.

The only legal argument here is that they can create a Monopoly considering their market share

 

[-Fran-]

For those that are still wondering why nVidia buying ARM is a bad thing, think about this:

What if you force X86 out of AMD, Intel and VIA, and spin it into its own company? You would now*, most likely, have Qualcomm, Samsung, nVidia, Texas Instruments and others actually licensing the ISA and creating X86 CPUs for us to buy. That definitely encourages an active market and competition, which is what has made ARM pretty much be in every device. What nVidia wants to do is what Intel could not: own exclusive rights to one of the most popular ISAs in the world and profit the hell out from it at the expense of the consumers and rest of the world. You guys think nVidia will allow others to license ARMv8, ARMv9 without any big asterisks? No, they won't. And even more, I'm sure they'll find an excuse to stop licensing it effectively killing the other chip manufacturers and the current market that depends on ARM's instruction set.

On the upside, this could mean RISC-V may see an uprising? 😛

Cheers!

 

[spongiemaster]

What nVidia wants to do is what Intel could not: own exclusive rights to one of the most popular ISAs in the world and profit the hell out from it at the expense of the consumers and rest of the world. You guys think nVidia will allow others to license ARMv8, ARMv9 without any big asterisks? No, they won't. And even more, I'm sure they'll find an excuse to stop licensing it effectively killing the other chip manufacturers and the current market that depends on ARM's instruction set.

You're predicting that Nvidia's goal is to profit the hell out of ARM by ending all its licensing agreements? I think you need to elaborate on how exactly that strategy is going to work. Nvidia doesn't sell enough Shields to cover the $40 billion acquisition fee.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

You're predicting that Nvidia's goal is to profit the hell out of ARM by ending all its licensing agreements? I think you need to elaborate on how exactly that strategy is going to work. Nvidia doesn't sell enough Shields to cover the $40 billion acquisition fee.

I don’t think that’s what he meant. He means they’re going to license the hell out of it and make tons of money

 

[spongiemaster]

I don’t think that’s what he meant. He means they’re going to license the hell out of it and make tons of money

Let's quote him again.

"And even more, I'm sure they'll find an excuse to stop licensing it effectively killing the other chip manufacturers and the current market that depends on ARM's instruction set. "

That's literally what he said. Stop licensing and kill the competition.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

Oh my bad. Yeah that doesn’t make much sense does it? I would think that they would license the crap out of it and make bucks

 

[spongiemaster]

Oh my bad. Yeah that doesn’t make much sense does it? I would think that they would license the crap out of it and make bucks

Agreed, I would expect a significant change in the licensing structure. Despite being in everything, ARM is losing money. They lost $400 million in 2020, and if not for a giant one time bag of cash from a joint venture with a Chinese conglomerate, they would have lost $400 million in 2019 as well. Nvidia isn't buying ARM to lose $400 million a year. One has to wonder how a company can have such a ubiquitous and dominant market share, about 95% of the cellphone market, and still be losing money. Apple is printing money and soon basically their entire product portfolio will be based off of technology from a company losing money.

 

[Phaaze88]

When Nvidia bought Mellanox, a networking company, what was the aim behind that?
Is that why Geforce Now exists?

 

[spongiemaster]

When Nvidia bought Mellanox, a networking company, what was the aim behind that?
Is that why Geforce Now exists?

Mellanox produces high speed network interfaces like InfiniBand for HPC/super computer applications.

 

[Phaaze88]

HPC/super computing...

Arm + Nvidia(plus all the other companies they 'assimilated') x HPC/super computing...

Spoiler

Oh no... Nvidia's going places.

 

[-Fran-]

You're predicting that Nvidia's goal is to profit the hell out of ARM by ending all its licensing agreements? I think you need to elaborate on how exactly that strategy is going to work. Nvidia doesn't sell enough Shields to cover the $40 billion acquisition fee.

As I mentioned, much like Intel and AMD have a duopoly of X86, nVidia wants to have a Monopoly of the ARM ISA. When you manage to secure a position of "single provider", you're sure to put pressure on your licencees like never before.

I mean, there's a reason not even Apple is making any business with nVidia anymore. APPLE.

If you think it is in nVidia's best interest to keep the licencing model long term, you're solely, completely and utterly mistaken. This is economics 101: you want to be a monopoly to maximize profits. Why do you think Intel hasn't moved X86 to a licencing model if it's lucrative as you say?

Agreed, I would expect a significant change in the licensing structure. Despite being in everything, ARM is losing money. They lost $400 million in 2020, and if not for a giant one time bag of cash from a joint venture with a Chinese conglomerate, they would have lost $400 million in 2019 as well. Nvidia isn't buying ARM to lose $400 million a year. One has to wonder how a company can have such a ubiquitous and dominant market share, about 95% of the cellphone market, and still be losing money. Apple is printing money and soon basically their entire product portfolio will be based off of technology from a company losing money.

What?

https://www.forbes.com/companies/arm-holdings/?sh=6d9ebc405df1

How is ARM losing money????

Regards,

 

[Soaptrail]

After the monopolitic <Mod Edit> that Amazon and Google pulled toward Parler, I can only say this: may nVidia clean their clocks! $crew Amazon and Google, as they have destroyed the goodwill they formerly enjoyed. I now recommend to everyone against those companies that have so fraudulently, dishonestly and dishonorably behaved toward conservatives; may they be broken-up and go out of business as the evil monopolies they have actually become.

Your argument does not make sense, the markets for Nvidia/Arm are different from Google and Amazon.

But I will not hold my breathe that Parler wins any lawsuits against Amazon.

 

[hotaru.hino]

How is ARM losing money????

They make their money licensing out their IP cores, e.g., things like the Cortex A processors. The thing is, companies that make ISAs don't make money off the ISA itself. And in fact, it's detrimental for them to hide the ISA documents behind a paywall because software support will basically be zero. What they make money off of, if they don't make the processors themselves, are licensing out the implementations of the processors. This way some other company doesn't have to design a CPU core which can result in faster lead times and the ISA holder doesn't have to actually sell a real product (though they probably could).

It's similar to graphics cards AIBs. EVGA doesn't make GPUs. They just take what NVIDIA makes and either plops it on a reference board design or they make their own to stand out from everyone else doing the same thing.

In any case, since a lot of the higher performance segment makes their own cores, ARM is stuck licensing their stuff out to people who sell SoCs for literally a couple of dollars or less per unit.

 

[jkflipflop98]

A lot of visionaries believe that ARM is finally the one who will displace x86.

Nvidia is the biggest threat to that new future. What good is breaking from x86 when you replace it with the likes of Nvidia? Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

This happens all the time. People don't realize we have what we have because that's usually the natural progression of things.

Example : Cable companies. People got sick and tired of having to buy cable packages from the big conglomerates. So we had this giant "CUT THE CORD!" thing where people went crazy for streaming services. "Ah Ha!" they said "this is how we'll get away from that evil BIG CABLE!! Ho Hooooo!"

Then content creators jumped on board. Then we had more than just Netflix and Hulu. Then pretty soon everyone has their own streaming service for 9.99/mo - but who is going to subscribe to 20 different services for 9.99/mo?? So then we started banding these services together where you get Hulu+Disney Plus+ and Discovery Plus and Hentai Central for $30 a month. And now we're right back to where we were with that "evil BIG CABLE" in the first place. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

As I mentioned, much like Intel and AMD have a duopoly of X86, nVidia wants to have a Monopoly of the ARM ISA. When you manage to secure a position of "single provider", you're sure to put pressure on your licencees like never before.

I mean, there's a reason not even Apple is making any business with nVidia anymore. APPLE.

If you think it is in nVidia's best interest to keep the licencing model long term, you're solely, completely and utterly mistaken. This is economics 101: you want to be a monopoly to maximize profits. Why do you think Intel hasn't moved X86 to a licencing model if it's lucrative as you say?

Bro, Intel DOES license x86 out to anyone that wants to use it. That's why AMD and VIA processors exist in the first place. You DO NOT want to be a monopoly in the United States, the US government will take your company away from you and smash it into little pieces right in front of your eyes. Intel has taken great pains over the years to keep AMD alive so that it doesn't look like a monopoly (Intel is one of AMD's largest stock holders).

 

[Integr8d]

Let me make this very simple for everyone: if you have an opportunity to make your competitor’s life difficult, that’s what you do. Pure and simple.

It doesn’t matter if an argument is valid or not. If it costs you little or nothing... and if it forces your competitor to HAVE to answer and explain and expend resources... that’s what you do.

nVidia knows this is going to happen. Similarly, all of its competitions know their job. If they can stop this acquisition from happening, it doesn’t matter if it would’ve been benign or typical nVidia BS, they’ve managed to disrupt nVidia’s plans. And that’s a win.

It’s not personal. It’s just business.

 

[spongiemaster]

If you think it is in nVidia's best interest to keep the licencing model long term, you're solely, completely and utterly mistaken. This is economics 101: you want to be a monopoly to maximize profits. Why do you think Intel hasn't moved X86 to a licencing model if it's lucrative as you say?

This isn't comparable to Intel. Intel is the actual originator of x86 and they control the entire manufacturing cycle from R&D all the way to retail products. When you control the entire process, of course you don't want to license it out, you'd just be creating competition for yourself.

Nvidia with ARM is not in the same position. The reason ARM is everywhere is because companies can customize it to their needs. NVidia can't bring the thousands of customized variations in house now and trying to consolidate them into a manageable number of variations is obviously not going to work for the 1800 existing ARM licensees. NVidia is also fabless. It would make zero sense for Nvidia to try and design ARM CPU's for Apple and Samsung and everyone else and then negotiate with TSMC to get them all produced. Nvidia is not buying ARM to go through all that.

The money is in the licensing. Let Apple and everyone else spend the money to develop their own CPU's and battle for FAB allotments, while NVidia sits back and collects checks. Apple can certainly afford to pay more for their license, and it will likely take a pretty large increase in price for them to decide to abandon ship and to start development all over on a different ISA.

What?

https://www.forbes.com/companies/arm-holdings/?sh=6d9ebc405df1

How is ARM losing money????

Regards,

Here are ARM's quarterly results

• Arm's quarterly net sales worldwide 2017-2020 | Statista

Income was about $1.9 billion in 2020, so I don't know what your link that says $1.5 billion is covering. There is no 4 quarter stretch going back to the beginning of 2017 where income was as low as $1.5 billion.

The Dollars And Sense Of Nvidia Paying A Fortune For Arm (nextplatform.com)

Let that sink in while we consider how much money that is for a business that generated just shy of $2 billion a year in licensing fees and other revenues in SoftBank’s fiscal 2019 and 2020 years ending in March and had an income of $1.27 billion in fiscal 2019 and a loss of $400 million in fiscal 2020. The Arm division of SoftBank had a one-time gain of $1.67 billion in that fiscal 2019 year after setting up a joint venture in China and getting a big bag of cash. The point is, it is hard to say how profitable the Arm licensing business really is at this point. Right now, it really isn’t,

Here is a link to Softbank's 2019 q4 financial report:

Consolidated financial report for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2020 (group.softbank)

Softbank themselves reported a negative operating income.

 

[Phaaze88]

A fair bit of this goes over my head, but what I do get - IF this acquisition of ARM is a step further towards Nvidia becoming a monopoly, then this is bad.

 

[spongiemaster]

Bro, Intel DOES license x86 out to anyone that wants to use it. That's why AMD and VIA processors exist in the first place. You DO NOT want to be a monopoly in the United States, the US government will take your company away from you and smash it into little pieces right in front of your eyes. Intel has taken great pains over the years to keep AMD alive so that it doesn't look like a monopoly (Intel is one of AMD's largest stock holders).

Intel does not license out to everyone. Only 3 companies have an x86 license, and you named 2 of them. The reason AMD has a license is because way back in the stone age of the 80's, Intel was trying to land the contract for the IBM PC, and IBM wouldn't do a deal unless they had a second source for CPU's, so Intel gave AMD an x86 license. Ever since then, Intel has tried their darndest to revoke that license. The only thing that has stopped those efforts is x86-64 that AMD licenses to Intel. If Intel managed to revoke AMD's x86 license now, AMD would revoke intel's X86-64 license and that won't work for anyone involved.

 

[hotaru.hino]

Let me make this very simple for everyone: if you have an opportunity to make your competitor’s life difficult, that’s what you do. Pure and simple.

It doesn’t matter if an argument is valid or not. If it costs you little or nothing... and if it forces your competitor to HAVE to answer and explain and expend resources... that’s what you do.

And so competitors who aren't really doing much should just harass and force someone to waste their time and resources is the best way to do business?

Man, I'm surprised I don't see McDonald's cronies heckling Burger King or vice versa.