Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox (More info?)
HAHAHAHA!!!! ATI is having major DEVELOPMENT problems with the R520 and
the R500. And it is supposed to ship WHEN? Oh yeah, it WILL run a lot
faster -- sure. The xflop 1.5 full circle MTV show was a fiasco, the
xflop 1.5 full circle E3 press conference was a fiasco, the xflop 1.5
full circle E3 floor demo was a fiasco, and NOW THIS!!! No wonder they
couldn't show up with even a GPU prototype, because there isn't one.
Total wank-ass lamers.
http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/company/ati/r520/index.html
Trouble for ATI?
R520 Issues
by Josh Walrath
"I have received some rather interesting information about some of the
issues facing ATI at this time. Several months ago it was suggested
that
ATI would be unveiling the R520 chip in April, then that time was
pushed
back to May, then it was rumored that it would be released during
Computex.
Now, all of those times have passed, and so far no next generation
product
from ATI. Several pieces of information have dropped into my hands,
and I
thought that I would share them here.
The R520 was supposedly taped out around 7 to 8 months ago (I haven't
been
able to pin down an exact time). Now, it usually takes a good three
months
before production quality silicon can be received back from the Fab
(this
includes time to get first silicon, make possible metal layer changes,
respin the design, etc.). Once production quality is achieved, then
the
initial orders for the production parts are sent and it takes generally
around three more months to get these initial orders back from the Fab
and
packaged and sent off to the board partners. So, it typically takes
around
six months between the initial tapeout to when we can expect solid
quantities of products to be hitting the shelves. So far that of
course has
not happened.
It has been widely commented on that TSMC's 90 nm Low-K process is
actually
quite robust, and the yields and bins are better than expected with
such a
new and complex process. So if ATI's R520 taped out so long ago, and
TSMC's
process is running at a higher efficiency than expected for this time
frame,
where are the R520 parts? The information I have received paints a
rather
grim picture for ATI. Add to that the recent information released by
ATI
about the lower than expected revenues due to product pressure and poor
yields and packaging problems, things are not as happy as they should
be.
The information on the R520 suggests that there are some extreme yield
problems with the current design. Not only are there few working dice
per
wafer, but a large number of those dice only have 16 pixel units
working,
and others are lucky to get 24 working. The information I received
suggested that the R520 was in fact designed with 32 pixel units (each
with
multiple ALU's), but due to the issues that the chip is facing, very
few of
them so far are fully functioning. There are of course fully
functioning
parts that have been shown behind closed doors, and apparently Abit
showed
off a working card at AConn that scored some impressive 3D Marks.
Another issue that ATI appears to be running into with the R520 is
current
leakage. AMD and Intel got around most of their current leakage
problems
with some advanced fabrication techniques and overall design. While
the
Pentium 4 Prescott is a pretty leaky monster, it also runs at 3.8 GHz
at
max. Once this gets turned down to under 3.0 GHz it starts to act a
lot
nicer. AMD uses a combination of design, SOI, and strained silicon to
keep
leakage at a minimum. Intel on the other hand uses Low-K and strained
silicon to keep current leakage in check. While TSMC's process runs
Low-K,
they do not offer strained technology. Also, ATI is using standard
cells to
design their chips, as compared to AMD and Intel which use full custom
cell
designs (which is one of the reasons why graphics chips run at 500 MHz
vs. a
processor which runs above 2.0 GHz). A standard cell gives ASIC
designers a
quick way to achieve complex layouts with a minimal amount of
engineering
resources, while a full custom design will give greater performance and
better power features than a standard cell, but it requires hundreds of
dedicated engineers to layout a complex custom cell design. While ATI
has
signed agreements with companies such as Intrinsity, which promises to
give
its customers custom cell performance at standard cell prices, so far
we
have yet to see the fruits of such collaborations. From my
understanding,
the R520 is not going to utilize dynamic logic, but rather standard
CMOS
technology.
This bit of information leads to a second possible problem. ATI also
is
trying to perfect the R500 chip, which will be used in the X-Box 360.
Is
the R500 going through the same teething process as the R520? It is
hard to
say, especially because the R500 is a totally different architecture
with a
much different design methodology. The R500 does not necessarily have
to
hit high clock speeds, so that takes a lot of the binning pressure off.
Because the X-Box 360 is a closed architecture, as long as the R500
hits the
minimum performance criteria set by Microsoft, it doesn't need to run
at 600
MHz to achieve its performance goals. It is not as if ATI is in a
runoff
with another company, and whichever company builds the faster product
with
good yields gets the contract. So, production pressure is not as
extreme
for ATI with the R500 as it is for the R520.
With this information in hand, it looks as if NVIDIA could
have
a big leg up on ATI for the next several quarters. While the rumored
specs
of the G70 are not as impressive as that of the R520, NVIDIA looks to
have
no problems producing G70 chips. This is actually quite reminiscent of
the
R300/NV30 situation. One company decided to use a new process for a
large
and complex part, while the other company sacrificed die size and
overall
clock speed to achieve more sustainable yields (and less risk). My
impression is that the R520 is not a dog, and will be a very competent
SM
3.0 part, but the ability to adequately cool/power/produce the R520 is
in
severe doubt at this time. While ATI will most likely respin the
design (or
already has done so many times) to achieve better yields and lower
leakage,
their time to market will be severely impacted by the issues that they
have
encountered so far. If the latest design they have sent off for
production
is a success, we still will not see the R520 introduced until early
Fall,
and then we have to question the availability of this product. While
the
G70 is a huge die on 110 nm (or so the current speculation goes), that
is a
very well known and mature process that will allow solid yields and
speed
bins for a product designed for it."
________________________________________________
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050609093014.html
ATI Fights for Next-Gen R520 GPU Yields - Sources.
ATI's Next-Gen Product May Not Yet Be in Production
Category: Video
by Anton Shilov
[ 06/09/2005 | 09:31 AM ]
Sources close to graphics chip designer ATI Technologies said on
Thursday
that the company has not yet started commercial supplies of its
next-generation R520 visual processing unit and that the chip firm is
in
process of re-spinning the chip so that to receive maximum yields of
the
processor when producing it in mass quantities.
According to a source who is familiar with the plans and ongoing
actions at
ATI Technologies, the company is working on a re-spin that is aimed to
improve yields of the product so that the company could deliver as many
next-generation graphics processors as possible. The source told X-bit
labs
that from functionality standpoint the R520 graphics processing unit is
fully functional.
Re-spinning of a chip is a costly process, as every re-spin costs
several
millions of U.S. dollars. Still, provided that such a re-spin would
improves
commercial yield by a significant margin, the cost of re-spin will be
compensated because of extremely high profit margin on high-end
graphics
processors.
ATI is reportedly playing a waiting game with NVIDIA Corp., who is
expected
to release its NVIDIA GeForce 7800-series graphics processors shortly.
Once
the benchmarks of NVIDIA's part code-named G70 are out by independent
review
web-sites, ATI is expected to finalize specifications, such as
clock-speeds,
of its next-generation RADEON product. Still, given that the Markham,
Ontario-based graphics firm is re-spinning its R520, it may not close
to
mass production of the product, which automatically puts the commercial
release at a later date, particularly towards back-to-school season.
Because of potential R520 product delay, some analysts this week said
they
were cautious about ATI's performance and concerned about possible
market
share loss by the company.
Interlocutors of X-bit labs also mentioned that the number of pixel
pipelines reported by various web-sites may not be accurate, as
internal
organization of next-generation of graphics processors may depend on
the
type of work they perform. Furthermore, the number of pixel pipelines
does
not necessarily indicate performance and a lot depends on the number
and
efficiency of arithmetic logic units (ALUs) inside the chip as well as
internal organization of caches.
ATI code-named R520 VPU is projected to support Shader Model 3.0 and
other
innovations, which requires a totally new graphics architecture from
ATI.
Still, general specifications of ATI's code-named R520 VPU are unclear
at
this time. Given that a new 90nm fabrication process is to be used for
the
manufacturing of R520, it is unlikely that the visual processing unit
will
be tremendously large in terms of transistor count and complex in terms
of
the number of pipelines. Fabless semiconductor designers tend to
balance
complexity of their chips for new fabrication processes. For instance,
since
2002, ATI has not launched manufacturing of high-end graphics chips
using a
new process technology unless the technology was tested on mainstream
chips.
Still, even on relatively new manufacturing processes, ATI has set
pretty
high clock-speeds for its VPUs in the past.
"In the short-term, which I would call the next three to twelve months,
the
PC roadmap is still going to be a big driver for revenue growth for the
company, with products including our [R]500 series and 90nm series
driving
growth in the desktop, notebook and workstation markets," said David
Orton,
ATI's CEO and President in a recent interview.
ATI has already showcased its R520-based graphics cards at E3 and
Computex
shows.
__________________________________________________
http://www.forbes.com/markets/2005/06/07/0607automarketscan10.html?pa...
ATI Hindered By Product Delays, Potential Share Loss
06.07.05, 12:13 PM ET
Goldman Sachs reiterated an "in line" rating and reduced earnings
estimates
on ATI Technologies , citing concerns. Goldman said, "First, we remain
concerned with the delay of ATI's next generation high-end graphics
processor, code-named R520, which appears to be now due out in August,
flatly missing the 'spring refresh' window. Given the tape-out took
place as
far back as October, and Taiwan Semiconductor's yields on 90nm have
been
generally good on other products including the Xbox 360 graphics chip,
we
believe the delay is due to a design issue."
The research firm is also concerned about ATI's presence in the desktop
discrete market, where it sees potential share erosion. "In addition to
ATI's recent share loss at the high end which was aggravated by supply
constraints, we expect that the transition to PCI Express by
add-in-board
makers this summer may favor Nvidia, given feedback we have received
from
the Taiwan channel on better reception for Nvidia's PCI Express
products.
While we view ATI's diversification efforts as better than Nvidia's, we
think both stocks are still mainly driven by share gains and losses in
the
desktop discrete market, and thus any potential share loss makes us
incrementally cautious on ATI." Earnings estimates have now been
reduced in
light of these reasons and ATI's negative preannouncement.
Goldman lowered the fiscal third-quarter estimate to earnings of 4
cents per
share on revenue of $530 million, down from earnings of 21 cents per
share
on revenue of $585 million. Estimates for 2005 were lowered to EPS of
75
cents on revenue of $2.352 billion, down from earnings of $1.06 per
share on
revenue of $2.460 billion. The 2006 estimate was lowered to EPS of 95
cents
on revenue of $2.606 billion, down from earnings of $1.31 per share on
revenue of $2.670 billion. However, Goldman did raise the 2007 estimate
to
earnings of $1.16 per share on revenue of $2.880 billion, up from
earnings
of $1.10 per share on revenue of $2.503 billion due to ATI's long-term
growth rate and a potential boost from the Longhorn operating system
from
Microsoft.
The research firm said that "to become more positive on ATI we would
wait
for more visibility around the timing and performance of their upcoming
high-end graphics processor, as the risks around its new architecture
design
and new process technology node (90nm) are significant."
HAHAHAHA!!!! ATI is having major DEVELOPMENT problems with the R520 and
the R500. And it is supposed to ship WHEN? Oh yeah, it WILL run a lot
faster -- sure. The xflop 1.5 full circle MTV show was a fiasco, the
xflop 1.5 full circle E3 press conference was a fiasco, the xflop 1.5
full circle E3 floor demo was a fiasco, and NOW THIS!!! No wonder they
couldn't show up with even a GPU prototype, because there isn't one.
Total wank-ass lamers.
http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/company/ati/r520/index.html
Trouble for ATI?
R520 Issues
by Josh Walrath
"I have received some rather interesting information about some of the
issues facing ATI at this time. Several months ago it was suggested
that
ATI would be unveiling the R520 chip in April, then that time was
pushed
back to May, then it was rumored that it would be released during
Computex.
Now, all of those times have passed, and so far no next generation
product
from ATI. Several pieces of information have dropped into my hands,
and I
thought that I would share them here.
The R520 was supposedly taped out around 7 to 8 months ago (I haven't
been
able to pin down an exact time). Now, it usually takes a good three
months
before production quality silicon can be received back from the Fab
(this
includes time to get first silicon, make possible metal layer changes,
respin the design, etc.). Once production quality is achieved, then
the
initial orders for the production parts are sent and it takes generally
around three more months to get these initial orders back from the Fab
and
packaged and sent off to the board partners. So, it typically takes
around
six months between the initial tapeout to when we can expect solid
quantities of products to be hitting the shelves. So far that of
course has
not happened.
It has been widely commented on that TSMC's 90 nm Low-K process is
actually
quite robust, and the yields and bins are better than expected with
such a
new and complex process. So if ATI's R520 taped out so long ago, and
TSMC's
process is running at a higher efficiency than expected for this time
frame,
where are the R520 parts? The information I have received paints a
rather
grim picture for ATI. Add to that the recent information released by
ATI
about the lower than expected revenues due to product pressure and poor
yields and packaging problems, things are not as happy as they should
be.
The information on the R520 suggests that there are some extreme yield
problems with the current design. Not only are there few working dice
per
wafer, but a large number of those dice only have 16 pixel units
working,
and others are lucky to get 24 working. The information I received
suggested that the R520 was in fact designed with 32 pixel units (each
with
multiple ALU's), but due to the issues that the chip is facing, very
few of
them so far are fully functioning. There are of course fully
functioning
parts that have been shown behind closed doors, and apparently Abit
showed
off a working card at AConn that scored some impressive 3D Marks.
Another issue that ATI appears to be running into with the R520 is
current
leakage. AMD and Intel got around most of their current leakage
problems
with some advanced fabrication techniques and overall design. While
the
Pentium 4 Prescott is a pretty leaky monster, it also runs at 3.8 GHz
at
max. Once this gets turned down to under 3.0 GHz it starts to act a
lot
nicer. AMD uses a combination of design, SOI, and strained silicon to
keep
leakage at a minimum. Intel on the other hand uses Low-K and strained
silicon to keep current leakage in check. While TSMC's process runs
Low-K,
they do not offer strained technology. Also, ATI is using standard
cells to
design their chips, as compared to AMD and Intel which use full custom
cell
designs (which is one of the reasons why graphics chips run at 500 MHz
vs. a
processor which runs above 2.0 GHz). A standard cell gives ASIC
designers a
quick way to achieve complex layouts with a minimal amount of
engineering
resources, while a full custom design will give greater performance and
better power features than a standard cell, but it requires hundreds of
dedicated engineers to layout a complex custom cell design. While ATI
has
signed agreements with companies such as Intrinsity, which promises to
give
its customers custom cell performance at standard cell prices, so far
we
have yet to see the fruits of such collaborations. From my
understanding,
the R520 is not going to utilize dynamic logic, but rather standard
CMOS
technology.
This bit of information leads to a second possible problem. ATI also
is
trying to perfect the R500 chip, which will be used in the X-Box 360.
Is
the R500 going through the same teething process as the R520? It is
hard to
say, especially because the R500 is a totally different architecture
with a
much different design methodology. The R500 does not necessarily have
to
hit high clock speeds, so that takes a lot of the binning pressure off.
Because the X-Box 360 is a closed architecture, as long as the R500
hits the
minimum performance criteria set by Microsoft, it doesn't need to run
at 600
MHz to achieve its performance goals. It is not as if ATI is in a
runoff
with another company, and whichever company builds the faster product
with
good yields gets the contract. So, production pressure is not as
extreme
for ATI with the R500 as it is for the R520.
With this information in hand, it looks as if NVIDIA could
have
a big leg up on ATI for the next several quarters. While the rumored
specs
of the G70 are not as impressive as that of the R520, NVIDIA looks to
have
no problems producing G70 chips. This is actually quite reminiscent of
the
R300/NV30 situation. One company decided to use a new process for a
large
and complex part, while the other company sacrificed die size and
overall
clock speed to achieve more sustainable yields (and less risk). My
impression is that the R520 is not a dog, and will be a very competent
SM
3.0 part, but the ability to adequately cool/power/produce the R520 is
in
severe doubt at this time. While ATI will most likely respin the
design (or
already has done so many times) to achieve better yields and lower
leakage,
their time to market will be severely impacted by the issues that they
have
encountered so far. If the latest design they have sent off for
production
is a success, we still will not see the R520 introduced until early
Fall,
and then we have to question the availability of this product. While
the
G70 is a huge die on 110 nm (or so the current speculation goes), that
is a
very well known and mature process that will allow solid yields and
speed
bins for a product designed for it."
________________________________________________
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050609093014.html
ATI Fights for Next-Gen R520 GPU Yields - Sources.
ATI's Next-Gen Product May Not Yet Be in Production
Category: Video
by Anton Shilov
[ 06/09/2005 | 09:31 AM ]
Sources close to graphics chip designer ATI Technologies said on
Thursday
that the company has not yet started commercial supplies of its
next-generation R520 visual processing unit and that the chip firm is
in
process of re-spinning the chip so that to receive maximum yields of
the
processor when producing it in mass quantities.
According to a source who is familiar with the plans and ongoing
actions at
ATI Technologies, the company is working on a re-spin that is aimed to
improve yields of the product so that the company could deliver as many
next-generation graphics processors as possible. The source told X-bit
labs
that from functionality standpoint the R520 graphics processing unit is
fully functional.
Re-spinning of a chip is a costly process, as every re-spin costs
several
millions of U.S. dollars. Still, provided that such a re-spin would
improves
commercial yield by a significant margin, the cost of re-spin will be
compensated because of extremely high profit margin on high-end
graphics
processors.
ATI is reportedly playing a waiting game with NVIDIA Corp., who is
expected
to release its NVIDIA GeForce 7800-series graphics processors shortly.
Once
the benchmarks of NVIDIA's part code-named G70 are out by independent
review
web-sites, ATI is expected to finalize specifications, such as
clock-speeds,
of its next-generation RADEON product. Still, given that the Markham,
Ontario-based graphics firm is re-spinning its R520, it may not close
to
mass production of the product, which automatically puts the commercial
release at a later date, particularly towards back-to-school season.
Because of potential R520 product delay, some analysts this week said
they
were cautious about ATI's performance and concerned about possible
market
share loss by the company.
Interlocutors of X-bit labs also mentioned that the number of pixel
pipelines reported by various web-sites may not be accurate, as
internal
organization of next-generation of graphics processors may depend on
the
type of work they perform. Furthermore, the number of pixel pipelines
does
not necessarily indicate performance and a lot depends on the number
and
efficiency of arithmetic logic units (ALUs) inside the chip as well as
internal organization of caches.
ATI code-named R520 VPU is projected to support Shader Model 3.0 and
other
innovations, which requires a totally new graphics architecture from
ATI.
Still, general specifications of ATI's code-named R520 VPU are unclear
at
this time. Given that a new 90nm fabrication process is to be used for
the
manufacturing of R520, it is unlikely that the visual processing unit
will
be tremendously large in terms of transistor count and complex in terms
of
the number of pipelines. Fabless semiconductor designers tend to
balance
complexity of their chips for new fabrication processes. For instance,
since
2002, ATI has not launched manufacturing of high-end graphics chips
using a
new process technology unless the technology was tested on mainstream
chips.
Still, even on relatively new manufacturing processes, ATI has set
pretty
high clock-speeds for its VPUs in the past.
"In the short-term, which I would call the next three to twelve months,
the
PC roadmap is still going to be a big driver for revenue growth for the
company, with products including our [R]500 series and 90nm series
driving
growth in the desktop, notebook and workstation markets," said David
Orton,
ATI's CEO and President in a recent interview.
ATI has already showcased its R520-based graphics cards at E3 and
Computex
shows.
__________________________________________________
http://www.forbes.com/markets/2005/06/07/0607automarketscan10.html?pa...
ATI Hindered By Product Delays, Potential Share Loss
06.07.05, 12:13 PM ET
Goldman Sachs reiterated an "in line" rating and reduced earnings
estimates
on ATI Technologies , citing concerns. Goldman said, "First, we remain
concerned with the delay of ATI's next generation high-end graphics
processor, code-named R520, which appears to be now due out in August,
flatly missing the 'spring refresh' window. Given the tape-out took
place as
far back as October, and Taiwan Semiconductor's yields on 90nm have
been
generally good on other products including the Xbox 360 graphics chip,
we
believe the delay is due to a design issue."
The research firm is also concerned about ATI's presence in the desktop
discrete market, where it sees potential share erosion. "In addition to
ATI's recent share loss at the high end which was aggravated by supply
constraints, we expect that the transition to PCI Express by
add-in-board
makers this summer may favor Nvidia, given feedback we have received
from
the Taiwan channel on better reception for Nvidia's PCI Express
products.
While we view ATI's diversification efforts as better than Nvidia's, we
think both stocks are still mainly driven by share gains and losses in
the
desktop discrete market, and thus any potential share loss makes us
incrementally cautious on ATI." Earnings estimates have now been
reduced in
light of these reasons and ATI's negative preannouncement.
Goldman lowered the fiscal third-quarter estimate to earnings of 4
cents per
share on revenue of $530 million, down from earnings of 21 cents per
share
on revenue of $585 million. Estimates for 2005 were lowered to EPS of
75
cents on revenue of $2.352 billion, down from earnings of $1.06 per
share on
revenue of $2.460 billion. The 2006 estimate was lowered to EPS of 95
cents
on revenue of $2.606 billion, down from earnings of $1.31 per share on
revenue of $2.670 billion. However, Goldman did raise the 2007 estimate
to
earnings of $1.16 per share on revenue of $2.880 billion, up from
earnings
of $1.10 per share on revenue of $2.503 billion due to ATI's long-term
growth rate and a potential boost from the Longhorn operating system
from
Microsoft.
The research firm said that "to become more positive on ATI we would
wait
for more visibility around the timing and performance of their upcoming
high-end graphics processor, as the risks around its new architecture
design
and new process technology node (90nm) are significant."
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