[SOLVED] Best tool for wiping 6TB mechanical hard drive before possible RMA

[MadsModsat]

I have an almost brand new mechanical hard drive, which I suspect might be failing, and I have contacted the store asking if it should be RMA'ed (or if I'm wrong).

But it is full of personal files, I have a lot of family photos on it, I have some work related data and a tonne of stuff that isn't private or important at all, but I would still prefer to wipe the drive completely before possibly returning it.

Until now, I never RMAed faulty HDDs, I just threw them in the recycle bin at a local electronics store, but the 6TB drive is somewhat more expensive than the smaller 1TB and 2TB drives I've used until recently.

The secure erase function of my BIOS is only for SSDs, not mechanical drives. I used to have a copy of "Ultimate Boot CD" somewhere, I could probably use one of the free tools on it.
But they take forever, and it is a 6 TB HDD - I was hoping some more up-to-date tools might have become available since I used UBCD last time (and I don't even know if those old DOS programs can even process large capacity drives).

There is an available Secure Erase program that comes with Samsung drives, but having never tried it, I don't know if it works with non-Samsung drives, and / or if it works with mechanical drives. But I have 3 Samsung SSDs, so I should be "allowed" to use it, at least - if it is recommended.

But my question is, is there a good Secure Erase program I should be looking for? Preferably free, but I don't mind paying for one - but I don't need a business level security, so I don't need a overly expensive solution.

Thanks in advance for any advice


Another bonus question, but not as important - but maybe someone can confirm if my suspicions are well founded.

I bought a completely new Seagate IronWolf 6TB HDD (ST6000VN0033-2EE110). There are no problems with the stored, read or written data, the drive is completely fine when it comes to the 1 and the 0's.

But mechanically, it is a completely different matter - when the drive is "idle", by which I mean the plates are spinning, but no data is being written to the drive, and no data is read from the drive, the drive shakes my entire case - I have a Corsair Obsidian 750D, and it supposedly weighs 10 kg when nothing is installed in it, and I have a lot installed in it - so it takes some considerable force to shake the entire thing.
I don 't know the right english words, unfortunately, so the only way I can really describe it, is that it feels like the drive's motor spins the platters in "waves" or pulses. It is like great big mechanical "jolts" repeated over and over again every few seconds - as if the motor is trying to keep the platters spinning, without doing it continously, but in pulses.

You can feel it very clearly, if you put you hand on the drive while it is behaving that way.

However, when the drive is being accessed, if it is being written to or copied from, the drive is performing completely normally, spinning fairly quietly (as well as can be expected from a mehanical drive).

But then, after having been accessed, and it returns to idle, the mechanical shaking, noise, and pulsating jolts are back.

When the drive goes to sleep, as defined in Windows Power Management, the drive is of course completely silent.

EDIT : All S.M.A.R.T. reports are 100% fine, SeaTools OKs the drive as well.

Do you think, as I do, that the drive is faulty, or is this really to be expected?

I've been around mechanical harddrives since the early 90s, so I have heard and seen a lot (I even had 3 WD Raptor 10.000RPM drives at the same time, and they were loud), and in my opinion this is not to be expected, but then again, you never know....

 

[Barty1884]

1. You have to realise that nothing is 100% guaranteed to 'wipe' a drive, shy of physically destroying it.
However, DBAN would be the more commonly used tool to do so these days: https://dban.org/
It's not quick, but anything that is particularly fast, is not going to give you the best results.

2. That level of vibration doesn't sound normal at all. With that, I'd be inclined the RMA the drive (only after ensuring the drive is mounted securely, of course) and after explaining the situation to Seagate and see what they say.

 

[MadsModsat]

Thanks a lot for your quick reply.

If it wouldn't have an impact on the RMA process, I would definately have "dropped" the drive, but I think I'll be making things difficult for myself unneccesarily - in that case, it would probably be better to just toss the drive in the bin. I don't really wnat to be dishonest either.

I probably should have added, that the quality of the secure erase doesn't have to be at a level fit for CIA or anything, but I don't want to return a drive, where I have just moved files to the recycle bin.

It is mostly so it a least requires a tiny bit of effort to restore the files. I don't really suspect anyone at the store where I bought it would do that, it is a reputable store, and also the data isn't THAT private, but you know - just as a precaution.

I don't know why I didn't think of dban, I've seen it metioned before, but it never occured to me, so thanks a lot for that recommendation, I'll check it out immediately.

To be honest, I don't really have any doubts the drive is mechanically defective, and I feel like it is just a matter of time, before the thing shakes itself apart
- but the RMA "conditions" where I live are such, that if a product doesn't prove to be faulty the moment when the store is testing it, I'll have to pay quite a large fee, plus shipping to the store in the first place, AND return shipping as well.

So when a product is not very expensive, the HDD in this case, it could end up being a better solution to keep the drive and purchase a new one, rather than RMA'ing it, unless I'm confident that the store will see the same defects I do.
Since the drives is completely fine on rare occations, that is basically the only reason why I'm reluctant to make a final decision. If it had been a smaller capacity (cheaper) drive, I wouldn't have considered RMA'ing it.

 

[Barty1884]

It is mostly so it a least requires a tiny bit of effort to restore the files. I don't really suspect anyone at the store where I bought it would do that, it is a reputable store, and also the data isn't THAT private, but you know - just as a precaution.

As far as requiring a little bit of effort, a basic format of the drive within Windows makes it slightly difficult to recover data. If it were going back to Seagate, and you've no particularly sensitive information on the drive, I'd (personally) be ok with that. To a random shop/retailer, maybe not so much.

To be honest, I don't really have any doubts the drive is mechanically defective, and I feel like it is just a matter of time, before the thing shakes itself apart
- but the RMA "conditions" where I live are such, that if a product doesn't prove to be faulty when the store is testing it, I'll have to pay quite a large fee, plus shipping to the store in the first place, AND return shipping as well.

So when a product is not very expensive, the HDD in this case, it could end up being a better solution to keep the drive and purchase a new one, rather than RMA'ing it, unless I'm confident that the store will see the same defects I do. That is basically the only reason why I'm reluctant to make a final decision.

Where are you located? Are RMA conditions such that you have to return to the store, opposed to the manufacturer? I know it happens in certain regions, just no first-hand experience as in Canada & the UK (my first-hand experience), an RMA goes to the manufacturer.

Paying the shipping in the event the component is not defective is pretty standard practice. A fee as a result, is not... to the best of my knowledge anyway.

If at all possible, I'd try to replicate the vibration in another system alltogether. If the same thing happens in a friend or family members system (completely different hardware & chassis) should rule out your specific case/mounting system. It's fairly safe to assume the problem will replicate itself under test environments. Taking a video of this occurring (if you can), will substantially help your case.

 

[MadsModsat]

As far as requiring a little bit of effort, a basic format of the drive within Windows makes it slightly difficult to recover data. If it were going back to Seagate, and you've no particularly sensitive information on the drive, I'd (personally) be ok with that. To a random shop/retailer, maybe not so much.



Where are you located? Are RMA conditions such that you have to return to the store, opposed to the manufacturer? I know it happens in certain regions, just no first-hand experience as in Canada & the UK (my first-hand experience), an RMA goes to the manufacturer.

Paying the shipping in the event the component is not defective is pretty standard practice. A fee as a result, is not... to the best of my knowledge anyway.

If at all possible, I'd try to replicate the vibration in another system alltogether. If the same thing happens in a friend or family members system (completely different hardware & chassis) should rule out your specific case/mounting system. It's fairly safe to assume the problem will replicate itself under test environments. Taking a video of this occurring (if you can), will substantially help your case.

I'm located in Denmark, and it would be the cheapest option to return it to the store. They provide a 2 year warranty on their own, and then off course there's the factory warranty. I know the RMA process here is like any other country, so I don't mind paying thhe shipping to the store. It is what happens if they don't find any faults, I'm worried about, then it will become expensive.

ButI have the option to chose either of the two possibilities (local RMA or Factory), and I actually registered the drive with Seagate shortly after i recieved it - so it should all be fine.

So both options are a possibility. But it is almost GBP £20-ish to ship the drive registered outside of Denmark, and it is only GBP £8 to ship it locally.

But I have shipped some RAM back to Corsair in The Netherlands no too long ago, so I have returned some products to the manufacturer before, and both are options are viable.

If the hard drive had cost tripple the amount of money it did, I wouldn't care about shipping internationally, but I personally would like to keep the cost down on a harddrive which wasn't too expensive all things considered.

It is a great idea trying the drive on a different system. I've only tried different SATA ports, but it would certainly give some comfort, if I can replicate the problem on a different setup myself. Unfortunaltely most people I know use laptops, but I must know someone with a desktop PC.

Great idea with video as well, I'll definately do that.


EDIT : I would of course have formatted the drive, full format (not quick, I know), but I thought a single pass of secure erasing it would be a bit better, don't want to wait for multiple passes though.

 

[Barty1884]

Ok, jumping back & forth in currency here, but stick with me...
From what I can find, that drive costs about 1650kr / 220EUR.
You're looking at ~185kr / 25EUR to ship to Seagate.

Personally, I'd see if I could sell the drive locally for ~1400-1500kr (after DBAN'ing it)
Ultimately, best-case scenario, you're going to be out the difference in one-way shipping alone. Even more if they don't find any problem. Of course, disclose the vibration to any seller/listing, and see if you can move it.

IF you can sell it for that kind of price, I'd just do it and buy another.

If you cannot, then I'd send it to Seagate.
If they don't find any issue with it, they should only charge you shipping back (and should be less than your pricing as an individual).

Realistically, Seagate should replace the drive without much issue given what you've described, but this way you mitigate the slight potential of additional costs.

 

[MadsModsat]

Euros are fine too, I somehow got it into my head you were british, sorry

I can definately see your point about selling it. I must admit I hadn't considered that option, as I don't feel comfortable selling something which to my best knowledge is not in perfect working order - but I would of course, as you suggest, be very clear about the problem before a buyer pays me anything for it.

I did actually sell an old AMD Radeon 290 which I accidently broke, when I was removing heatsinks mounted with thermal glue from an aftermaket cooler, that I had installed. The GPU worked fine, in a way, it just got incredibly hot. I put it up for auction with a starting bid of 0,- and I got quite a lot of money for it (it had almost just entered the market at that time).

Sorry, I got sidetracked.

I'll consider your advise about selling it, but I think I'm more inclined to ship it to Seagate. Now that you mention the advantages of it, I think it sounds like a good idea.

I'll wait and see what reply the store has, I only submitted my request just before starting this thread, so it will be a day or two before I hear anything.

Depending on what they think, I'll most likely go with your idea and ship it to Seagate.

Until then, I'll make a video in which the niose is obvious, that was a great idea I hadn't thought of myself.

I really appreciate your time and your replies, they are very helpful.

 

[Barty1884]

I am - and live in Canada. I just meant I was going to be jumping back & forth in my post between currencies - but then I just covered my bases 😂

Yeah, I'm not suggesting you scam anybody - but I'd post your honest view of it.
6TB HDD: Barely used, just feel like it excessively vibrates. Functions as expected.
Now, I'm not too confident someone would pay you 1500kr, but you never know. And it mitigates your potential shortfall if there's nothing wrong with the drive - and should just about equal your net cost if there was.

Obviously, it'll depend on the local stores reputation. I'd be more confident in Seagate than a small retailer, but if they're honouring products for an extended period of time, then you should be fine to get a replacement from them anyway.

 

[MadsModsat]

Don't worry, I did see you said to be honest when selling

I doubt I'd be able to ask more than 1000,- and that may even be very optimistic.

The thing is, if it was only vibrating, I would feel more comfortable selling it.

But it feels more like someone is physically hitting my entire PC on the side of the case with their fist every 2 seconds, until the drive goes to sleep. Maybe a little overexaggerated, but not too far off actually, I would never have thought there was so much torque in such a small electric motor.

When you drop a HDD, it will often make that familiar clicking sound of a dead drive. There is no clicking sound, but if you imagine the same frequency of the clicking, that's the same interval of the severe "impacts" or jolts. Almost as if you are trying to spin a plate (for food) on a stick, and you need to grab it, push it to keep momentum, then do it over and over again. I know it sounds dumb, I don't really know how to explain it.

So I'm surpised the heads don't collide with the platters, but when the drive is being accessed, it behaves completely normal - I guess that's why there's no data corruption (yet).

So I haven't been in a hurry really, to RMA it - and I have the data backed up. But I get a very strong sensation, that the drive mechanism might break / shake itself to pieces. It is a very powerful physical action, it is felt very strongly. Maybe I'm using the wrong words, I can't find a good translation for the word I would use in Danish, but it definately doesn't feel right.

I'm just always the type, who keep second guessing myself, when I RMA something - but I feel quite confident, that this HDD will break at some point - and if it doesn't, I don't really care to listen to it all day long until I retire it.

 

[cryoburner]

I don 't know the right english words, unfortunately, so the only way I can really describe it, is that it feels like the drive's motor spins the platters in "waves" or pulses. It is like great big mechanical "jolts" repeated over and over again every few seconds - as if the motor is trying to keep the platters spinning, without doing it continously, but in pulses.

What you describe could be resonance, particularly if you have more than one drive installed in the system, where the normal vibrations of two or more drives can align at certain intervals, resulting in a vibration sound that comes in waves. It's possible that the vibrations might align with other hardware, like case fans too. Is the drive just hard-mounted to the drive cage, or does your case use rubber vibration-dampening grommets or anything?

But they take forever, and it is a 6 TB HDD - I was hoping some more up-to-date tools might have become available since I used UBCD last time (and I don't even know if those old DOS programs can even process large capacity drives).

Pretty much any software will tend to take quite a while, since a secure erase is typically writing to every sector on the drive more than once. Doing some quick math, even in the drive managed to maintain an average of 200MB sequential performance across the drive, that would work out to over 8 hours for a single pass at best, and multiple times that amount for additional passes.

 

[MadsModsat]

What you describe could be resonance, particularly if you have more than one drive installed in the system, where the normal vibrations of two or more drives can align at certain intervals, resulting in a vibration sound that comes in waves. It's possible that the vibrations might align with other hardware, like case fans too. Is the drive just hard-mounted to the drive cage, or does your case use rubber vibration-dampening grommets or anything?


Pretty much any software will tend to take quite a while, since a secure erase is typically writing to every sector on the drive more than once. Doing some quick math, even in the drive managed to maintain an average of 200MB sequential performance across the drive, that would work out to over 8 hours for a single pass at best, and multiple times that amount for additional passes.

I tried describing it in my post while you were posting, I'll just copy / pate it here as well, for simplicity.

The thing is, if it was only vibrating, I would feel more comfortable selling it.

But it feels more like someone is physically hitting my entire PC on the side of the case with their fist every 2 seconds, until the drive goes to sleep. Maybe a little overexaggerated, but not too far off actually, I would never have thought there was so much torque in such a small electric motor.

When you drop a HDD, it will often make that familiar clicking sound of a dead drive. There is no clicking sound, but if you imagine the same frequency of the clicking, that's the same interval of the severe "impacts" or jolts. Almost as if you are trying to spin a plate (for food) on a stick, and you need to grab it, push it to keep momentum, then do it over and over again. I know it sounds dumb, I don't really know how to explain it.

So I'm surpised the heads don't collide with the platters, but when the drive is being accessed, it behaves completely normal - I guess that's why there's no data corruption (yet).

I actually considered not posting my question, as I can simply not find an english word which is the correct to describe the issue. That's why I tried waves for example, that is pretty much the worst description, now that I can see what it could indicate.

The drive is not vibrating, it is very aggresively shaking every two seconds or so - shaking is also not very precise, since it indicates it happens over a short time. It is more like chocks to the system.

When I initially installed this drive, I had 2 NVMe SSDs and a SATA3 SSD - no other mechanical drives. The drive is mounted in a HDD cage with room for 3 drives, on its own - it is mounted in rubber bushings. The drive cage is mounted quite firmly to the floor of the case (or bottom, whichever is the correct term). It is a Corsair Obsidian 750D, so qiute a heavy case.

I have always had at least 3 HDDs in any system I have had for the past 20 years or so, often 5 or more before SSDs became a thing. I have never encountered this phenomenon before. I see your point regarding harmonic vibration, but this is not at all like that - I have often experienced that, although not in this chassis / case.

But I have since then, added 2 more HDDs, and the noise from the Seagate drive hasn't changed. When I put my hand directly on the drive, I feel the drive shake (not vibrate) physically, very noticably and sounding loud too. Not continuosly, but like hammering almost.

I have had a lot of mechanical drives through the years, right now I have 6 2 TB "standby drives" in my closet which I retired over the recent years, you never know if they could become useful again.
So I'm familiar with the spectacular niose mechanical drives can make - especially when looking back at the three 10.000 RPM WD Raptor drives I had - they were incredibly noisy.
I'm also familiar with harmonic vibrations, I used to suspend my harddrives in rubber bands to avoid it.

I appreciate your reply very much, and harmonic vibration could have been the answer, but that would never result in a similar behaviour as I'm experiencing. If it was vibrations, absolutely, but it is not vibrations, actually the drive doesn't vibrate at all, but they are severe "knocks" or jolts, which in exact intervals repeat themselves.

Alsmost as if the motor to spin the platters only recived power for 0.5 seconds at a time, every few seconds.

I'm running out of ideas of how to describe it, I'm sorry I'm not more specific, I can guarantee I'm trying very hard.

EDIT : Right now the drive is running a SeaTools test, so it is nice and quiet, but it seems I'd have to try to capture a video of it happening

 

[MadsModsat]

The store got back to me earlier today, and they suspect the reason why the drive behaves that way is, that it is a NAS drive in a "normal" desktop computer. They did offer shipping it to Seagate, though, so they didn't reject the idea it might be faulty. They are usually very service minded at that store.

I knew the drive was a NAS drive when I bought it, I was going for reliability since the drive would be working with a lot of data being written and transferred continously for days at a time, but maybe I was wrong going in that direction - it didn't occur to me that it could present a problem.

I'm still not too sure the drive isn't faulty, but my firm blelief that it is faulty, has taken a hit, so I won't be returning it.

Instead I've put the drive into an external USB enclosure, and I will only be connecting it for a complete backup with a lot longer inbetween, than what I do now.

Next payday, I'll buy another 6TB internal drive, and make sure it is not a NAS drive, and then return to the continous synchronization setup I was running until today. I'll keep the IronWolf NAS drive, it never hurts to have a backup of the backup

Thanks a lot for your advice to both of you, it is much appreciated.

 

[Barty1884]

The logic that a "NAS" drive would vibrate more in a desktop environment is misguided at best.

If anything, a "NAS" calibre drive should vibrate less. They're designed with 24/7 use-cases in mind.
Now, they may be more noticeable at startup/shutdown (as that's not really their intended use-case), but I would not expect a "NAS" drive to be more noticeable during normal operations - certainly not to the extent you describe.

 

[MadsModsat]

That is also why I try so hard to explain, that the drive isn't vibrating. Vibrations would be ongoing, or somethings that indicates it happens continously over a time window.

I experience severe "knocks" when the drive is not "at work". Almost as if there was some very tiny person (lol), pounding the inside of the HDD outer skin with a giant hammer - almost like : silence - KNOCK - silence - silence - KNOCK - silence - silence - KNOCK - silence... over and over, in tight intervals, the period of time between blows are precise, never varying in time.

That's why I compared it to a HDD that's been dropped from height and is broken - it makes a certain ticking sound, or clicks, in equal intervals. It is the same with the knocks I hear.

It is also almost like those office gadgets with 6 or so beads suspended in strings from a small frame, and when one bead hits in one end, the outermost bead on the other end replicates the action.
It has a very rhytmic sound when the beads swing back and forth.

Although, instead of a tiny click, my entire chassis shakes, as if it had been hit on the side with a closed fist. Hit - nothing - hit - nothing - hit - nothing... and so on.

During the 5 hours I was continously copying to the drive yesterday, it was whisper-quiet, it didn't vibrate and acted exactly as a mechanical drive is supposed to, at least in my experience.

I know my explanations sound stupid, I just can't be any more accurate, as my english is lacking in that department. I'm trying very hard to paint the right picture, but it seems I can't.

But I have learned a lot from the comments, so I'm happy about that

 

[Barty1884]

That description could be the drive parking & starting up. Something that NAS drives are not really intended to do - but shouldn't present a problem.

It's ok, if I'm understanding what you're trying to say - having a broader English vocabulary doesn't seem like it would help any. (again, if I'm understanding correctly), I don't think I'd be able to describe it any better - as a native English speaker! 😂

 

[cryoburner]

Yeah, I was thinking it might be head parking too. Have you checked in the SMART data for whether the load cycle count might be increasing at an abnormal rate? If the heads were trying to park every few seconds for some reason, but Windows was also accessing the drive in the background every few seconds, that could potentially result in a periodic clicking or knocking sound.

 

[MadsModsat]

I was thinking about that as well - it certainly feels like it is the torque frome the electric motor kicking into action, but then not staying on.

But to try and counter that, I've disabled HDD sleep in Windows Power settings, so it should be spinning constantly, but it doesn't change anything.

But I'm a bit confused about it. It could very well be different drive behaviour due to it being a NAS HDD, but at the same time it just sounds so intense and loud, acompanied by the physical nature of it, the way it kicks the entire chassis.

But like I mentioned above, I don't want to spend more time on it. I'll buy a 6TB non-NAS drive next time there's a bit of money in my account, and I'll keep the NAS drive as a second backup. Until then, it will be run in the USB HDD enclosure I have, and I'll only connect it for updates to the files, and then disconnect it again.

 

[MadsModsat]

Yeah, I was thinking it might be head parking too. Have you checked in the SMART data for whether the load cycle count might be increasing at an abnormal rate? If the heads were trying to park every few seconds for some reason, but Windows was also accessing the drive in the background every few seconds, that could potentially result in a periodic clicking or knocking sound.

Yes. All S.M.A.R.T. data comes back as 100% OK. There's no data corruption, there's no other indacations it could be damaged.

I ran SeaTools overnight, it took about 8 hours, and came back as a pass.

It does feel like it will break eventually from to forces involved, unless I break down from the noise before that (j/K), it is unbearable to listen to, which is why I have finally removed the drive earlier today

 

[cryoburner]

Yes. All S.M.A.R.T. data comes back as 100% OK. There's no data corruption, there's no other indacations it could be damaged.

Well, you could have thousands of load/unload cycles and the SMART attribute would still come up as being "okay". Having thousands of load cycles in itself wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but having that many after only owning the drive for a short time wouldn't typically be normal.

Did the utility you used to check the SMART data actually list a value for the number of times that the drive heads have been loaded, or how many times the drive has spun up? If the drive were not getting spun down during use, I would expect the load cycles to be similar to power cycles, and the start/stop count to be around double that number.

 

[MadsModsat]

I used CrystalDisk Info, as that was the first program that came to mind. I went through the items listed under Attribute Name, and looked at the the Current / Worst / Threshold numbers, and nothing obvious stood out.

But if you can suggest a better program perhaps, I could try it. But since I didn't really notice any numbers out of the ordinary, and Seagate's own SeaTools ran the most advanced test available in the program, I considered it safe to conclude the drive is fine.

But I'm very much open to suggestions, if I have skipped any obvious steps or tools available

EDIT :

This is what Crystal Disk Info says about the drive

I don't seem to be able to conclude much from that, but maybe someone else can

 

[cryoburner]

They're listing the raw hexadecimal values there, so 4324 for the "load/unload cycle count" would work out to 17,188 times, while the drive has only seen 188 power cycles and 1,015 power on hours. Assuming that load cycle count is being presented in a relatively standard way, that would be a rather high number. It's normal for laptop drives and low-power "green" drives to unload the read/write head when not written to for some seconds, but I wouldn't expect a 7200 RPM desktop or NAS drive to be doing that. I know Seagate lists some of their other SMART values in a proprietary way that makes them difficult to interpret, such as the seek and read error rates, but I believe the load cycle count should be presented in a more direct way.

You could always try checking that smart data again, waiting a minute or so and counting how many times you hear the knocking sound, then running it another time and seeing if the number has increased accordingly (converting the numbers from hex to decimal format first), to verify whether the knocks are lining up with the head parking.

I did a quick search and found some other people mentioning certain Seagate IronWolf drives parking excessively for them, but that was in certain NAS setups, so I'm not sure how it would compare in Windows. A workaround could be to simply have something written to the drive regularly, like a log file, to prevent the drive from parking the heads. Windows or drivers might do that anyway on a boot drive, preventing it from sleeping, but might not on a secondary drive.

 

[mdd1963]

If this drive is installed in any desktop, the entire drive can be easily overwritten (1, 3, 7 , or stupid 35 pass options) with CCleaner (ccleaner/tools/drive wiper) , and, Active@Killdisk has an application with similar options designed just for disk wiping.....

There are even options to format w/ overwrite even within Windows CMD line, but, as I would need to look them up each time (or at least once and save it for future reference) for exact cmd syntax with options/sub-options, most obviously find the GUI infinitely easier.

 

[MadsModsat]

Thanks a lot for your suggestions, they are much appreciated - I'll definately have a look at it