BioShock Soaked in DRM Fiasco

[killerb255]

To bad for these guys that myself and many others have already switched to Linux completely. At least a few of the upcoming games recognize this. Us lowly Linux gamers can rebuild/reinstall as many times as we want without ever asking anybody's permission(activate). It takes a while, but all games seem to run on Linux eventually, usually at a greatly reduced cost.

Until Linux is more heavily marketed and made more user-friendly to Joe Sixpack consumer and Joseph Bigbuck businessman (Ubuntu is getting there on the user-friendliness), people won't switch rapidly enough to affect the pocketbooks of Microsoft at a rate Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer would be concerned with.

Remove the "computer geek" image from Linux and get the community to agree with one distro and then we'll talk.

 

[spongebob]

The activation limit has already been changed; that's been confirmed.

Secondly, they have announced that they are removing the SecuROM protection at a later date.

Third, I'd be hesitant to brand anybody trying to say anything in defense of the system as somehow being employed by 2K or Sony. I've gotten that on a few forums now, and it doesn't change the fact that I'm not (to the contrary, I wish I were... maybe then I wouldn't have $40,000 in student loan debt and could afford more games).

Fourth, I think the reason most publishers "treat their customers like criminals" is because of the outcry from situations like this, where people threaten not to buy the games or pirate them on principle (not exactly proving to the publisher that they AREN'T criminals). I used to be one in this camp, and have realized it's not serving the right end.

1) The activation limit in and of itself is, IMO, reasonable. As a means to that end I'd say SecuROM was a poor choice.

2) I hope it's sooner rather than later. I'd love to pick up a version of this software that's not tied to Sony's product or anything like it.

3) No argument there.

4) Not buying a game based on principle - this is nothing that warrants the criminalization of the customer, it's simply how the customer votes. Pirating on principle or for any other reason I can not condone. And actually, I suspect those who pirate on principle use these inconveniences as a justification of convenience - had the launch gone smoothly they'd find another reason I'm sure. As I said before, all this talk of piracy serves only encourage them to tighten the screws.

That said, I do understand their concern. During the napster craze things were way out of hand. Once I witnessed a computer mfg. rep in an office supply store downloading away while he was rattling off what music he collected that day. Nuts! It's those kind of visions that drive publishers to protect their jewels. Having worked in the game publishing industry at one time I understand that. But IMO all that's needed is to make piracy inconvenient, not impossible because the latter I believe can not be achieved.

I suppose this could be argued this one way or the other for hours on end, but at the end of the day there are better, more consumer friendly solutions IMO, I don't trust SecuROM (they weren't exactly up front about it to begin with) and I don't want that junk on my system. I therefore will not buy it out of principle, and hope that others with similar convictions refrain from purchasing as well.

 

[Luscious]

CONTROL is the word of the future.

PS: I really hope I'm wrong.

As history has shown us, CONTROL was also the backbone of Communism. Yet it was that same attempt at totalitarian control that led to it's failure and collapse.

@ rfunes

When I was reading your post again this morning I remembered this – a very interesting read.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

So no, you’re not wrong.

Looking at that link, if this is seriously the vision of Bill Gates and Microsoft, then I can only think that he is sending the PC as we know it today into a permanent technology graveyard. DRM is only the beginning of Microsoft's "plan" - pissing off the honest consumer. In a free and democratic society where the intelligent consumer enjoys rights and privileges, there is no way in hell Bill Gates should decide; 1.) what we can do 2.) with what we have legally paid for, 3.) legally own and 4.) use in our own homes. That kind of monopolistic, totalitarian, unrestricted control is only asking for trouble. Bill Gates may be an incredibly wealthy man right now, calling the shots and in control of a software empire, but the human race and society would have to be totally brainwashed to succumb to his fantasies and rescind such core principles as free-decision, autonomy, and financial security. Think about it for a minute - can you imagine for real a life where MS is dipping its hands into our wallets totally legally whenever they want for as much as they like, telling us what we can and cannot do with what we own, monitoring what we do, controlling our time, forcing things on us as they want, giving us "permissions" as if we are a subordinate class, dictating the events in our lives, and telling us it is all for "our own good", for our "safety" and in our "best interests" ???

It may be exaggerating the point there, but don't be surprised if one day in the distant future Bill Gates is the homeless bum hiding in the cardboard box under that freeway overpass, his misguided, distorted visions having ultimately sealed his ill fate, and his Microsoft empire gone into dust as a mere memory - the victim of an extended, difficult, global do-or-die struggle by an oppressed society to regain it's freedom and escape the clutches of a ruthless, powerful, money-hungry, obsessed megalomaniac bent on controlling humanity through "his" technology.

 

[MrsBytch]

I dont see what the big deal is. I have the game downloaded, I have no reason to download it twice or on another computer. As far as malware well I havent experienced that yet but I havent tried to uninstall it either.

 

[Ananan]

After a few days to sort of simmer down and think about things rationally I still don't believe the activation limit is proper.

I have games that I have installed well over 10 times over the years without a hint of piracy involved. I've probably installed Alpha Centauri over 20 times. I should not have to jump through hoops to re-install games I've purchased.

I often take a game I'm playing on my home PC to my parent's house when I visit them. All of my boyhood friends are long gone from that place and I just don't feel like going out to bars by myself. My parents don't even have cable.

So I have to have something to do after they go to bed, and I'll play a game I bought legally to try out different characters or play styles. Because my dad is obsessive about his PC I always uninstall the game when I leave; usually I'll just leave the save games tucked away somewhere he can't find them. I've been doing this for many years.

So now, according to 2K, I no longer have the right to freely do this. I have to be their lapdog.

It IS a big deal. It's ALWAYS a big deal. I simply cannot understand people who say it isn't.

 

[Zorg]

Guys,

Just remember something very important, if you say that online activation is not an issue:

Can you guarantee that in 10 years 2K games will still exist? In 5 years? In 2 years?

Now they are on the market, they have money, they have servers doing the online activation thing. But in the future?

I can still today play my "Prince of Persia" game, and I like it, because I payed for it long time ago.

Will you be playing Bioshock in 10 years? What happens if the online activation server goes down?

If this article is any indication, when it is no longer profitable to support the game then you will loose your "right" to play it. Send those aholes a message, don't buy the game, but don't pirate it either.

DIE SONY DIE!!!

TG Daily - Sony to kill off Connect music store, proprietary ATRAC format

 

[sojrner]

So now, according to 2K, I no longer have the right to freely do this. I have to be their lapdog.

It IS a big deal. It's ALWAYS a big deal. I simply cannot understand people who say it isn't.

agreed. ANY limit on re-installs is wrong. I too have reinstalled many games more than 5 times, some (like UT'99) MUCH more than that.

I personally have quite a few games that I purchased and then immediately found a no-cd crack. (virtual drive or hacked exe) Is this to pirate it or run multiple copies? not at all. It is simply to be able to hit the go button on any game installed and not worry about if I have the cd in the drive. I bought the game, I want to play it how/when I want... I like the convenience of having games installed so I can play as the mood strikes me.

...to those that are saying to go console to remove this problem... that is not a solution. You want to talk about controlled, closed systems? Even this retarded DRM is freedom compared to what you can (can't) do with console games.

 

[mman74]

For the love of GAMES, please, please DON'T buy this game!!!
If you buy it, you will be condoning this sort of action by game developers. PLEASE DON'T buy this game. Buy games, any game, just don't get this one!!!

 

[Guest]

I dont see what the big deal is. I have the game downloaded, I have no reason to download it twice or on another computer. As far as malware well I havent experienced that yet but I havent tried to uninstall it either.

While most people that buy a game, install and use it on only one computer. *The Big Deal* is ~~~ Say your hard drive crashes, you just lost an install of BioShock. Say 3 months later, you buy a new computer; you just got hit again.. The *Big Deal* is, 2K Games is pushing software with install limits so 6 months/1 year/2 year/whatever you may not be able install the game to replay it.

I can read your mind already -- Who is going to want to replay BioShock in a year or two? That's not the point. The point is, having install limits on software that you legally own and have paid good money for. That means that you can't give it away after your done, you can't sell it on eBay in ernest (but I bet that won't stop some people), you can't do anything with it except file it in the trash can and let your local landfill take care of it ~~ money down the drain...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and don't forget that installing this software will also install malware on your computer!!!

 

[Dune]

Hi all,
After viewing Mr. Rob Wright's first and second video, I have decided to do the following:
I will go out and buy the game. I understand it is wrong to pirate the game in anyway and it does rob the studio and the programmers their rightful income. So, after buying a legit copy, I will wait for a good crack to come out. Then, I may very well choose to use that crack. I don't believe in being limited in anyway after I spent good money on a game title which I should have a legit claim to own and do as I please. And some of the replies are absolutely right. What if 5 to 10 years down the track 2K decided to go out of business? Will they keep their server running to check my legal right? I do still play games from over 10 years ago from time to time! This way, I am not being "cheap" and my conscience is clear.

 

[llama_man]

Ta-da! And another honest user is turned into a pirate by their pointless DRM. The system works! [/sarcasm]

Sony really are retarded. You'd think they'd have elarnt from their last fiasco.

 

[Zorg]

Unfortunately, Sony will never learn

 

[BigMac]

as a Bioshok player...

I dont like DRM. But i understand the need to protect the software. DRM isn't the way to go in my opinion due to what we're seeing today.

However, Online registration (or telephone) isn't that bad. What is bad is forced restrictions on the installations. If i buy the game, i should be allowed to install it as many times as i want. I then should be able to give it to my friend when i'm done. Or uninstall and play on another computer.

2k goofed on that one.

I actually love the valve way. As long as you have steam installed you can install the game on a million computers. However you can only play it on one computer at a time.

I think it's safe to say that piracy of Hl2 and CS;S are pretty low in comparison

Unfortunately running BioShock via Steam is not doing it the ValvE way. As you are informed when purchasing the game via Steam, the 5 installs policy still applies. In itself 5 seems ok, but it means you still get the SecuROM software on your system as an added bonus which offends a lot of people (including me). I do not mind having it installed on my system by itself, it is the fact that you will not get rid of it if you are doing an uninstall of the game(s) that rely on it which really pisses me off.

 

[Blackmanta]

Dont Buy or pirate the game.

Every single buy made of this game will be like saying that you accept secuROM.

 

[Archytas]

I joined this forum so I could join in this discussion... so here goes...

I'm going out to buy this game today... DRM and all. Because I don't care. And apart from a vocal few, lots of people are going to buy this game and not have any problems. And the developers and puplishers are going to make money and in the end there's not going to be many people who remember this.

For those that will want to play it in 10 years and are worried that the activation servers will be gone(and the point has been made over and over) they already said that the game wont need it in the future. In fact this was pointed out by another poster earlier on and obviously ignored...

Also another point was made about how many law suits were coming and this was going to change everything... Unfortunately this isn't the case as Sony has been sued before and it will be sued again.

ruthless, powerful, money-hungry, obsessed megalomaniac bent on controlling humanity through "his" technology.

Bill Gates really isn't any of the above.... and he doesn't really have much of a say in the day to day running of MS anymore either, and can drop his shares very very quickly, So if MS was to cumble he'd still have all of his money...

Nice forum by the way...

 

[sojrner]

Because I don't care.

...and that my friend says it all.

This is the problem regardless of the issue. As more ppl become apathetic to any issue, NOTHING changes. Now I am not equating the fight for DRM with a fight against taxation w/o representation... but if you don't fight for what you know to be right, then what is the point with believing anything? Why bother living at all?

Extreme take on it to be sure, but the point is still valid. Care about something man. If we all just sat down and took the DRM from each company that wants to give it to us we might as well just let them take over our computers... I mean really... they know what we need better than we do don't they? Let them set the admin password on your system and only give you access to what you "need". You should not be messing in the registry anyway should you? It's saturday, you can't play games today... curfew is 10pm... no ripped mp3's no matter if you bought the CD... that is a bad site, quit looking there... ESRB rating is too high on this one for you...

Honestly, if you don't care (and I mean REALLY dont care) then why are you even responding to this forum?

 

[Archytas]

Because DRM will never get that bad. Ever. And I don't think anyone here believes that. All it does is prevents you from copying or cracking or whatever. And that really isn't a bad thing.

I absolutely totally agree that it should be gone after an uninstall but in reality every software leaves bits of itself behind. The uninstaller development is always left till last and is always the worst part of an app.

Now if its left behind on purpose what is it doing? How does it send out information? Does it send out information? But A good firewall will take care of that. Agreed we shouldn't have to be dealing with it but its not the end of the world.

 

[famia]

Archytas, DRM has already gotten VERY close to what sojrner posted. Go look up starforce (believe the BS of the company or the BS of the users, up to you).

True, some software leave bits of themselves somewhere forgotten or otherwise. Problem with DRM is that the DRM software(or *ware if you prefer it) is not dependent on the software you bought. It does not just leave a mark in the system (frankly if it only leaves a mark I would not care, 5-10mb is nothing nowadays) it is still active trying to block you from doing stuff or lack thereof, is still being loaded in memory and using up precious CPU time.

I would like to reply to your query on removing the DRM in the future. My answer is How? How will they remove it? Thru a patch? The software you bought is written to the cd permanently so if you are going to reinstall it 10 - 20 years from now it will still do the checks, ping the server and what not. it will still block you when it does not get a response from the server. So how will they remove this "feature" that is coded in your CD? Are you telling us to keep the no-DRM patch in our HD forever or as long as we are still interested in the game (this is considering that both company goes under because we can just re download the patch when we want to if they are still active)?

 

[BigMac]

Let's not get carried away by the argument of computer game longevity, ok?

Do you still have a functioning (emulation)platform on which you're still playing the original Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards (the original was released in 1987)?

A life time of 20 years is way past the economical lifetime. I think 10 years will be enough of a challenge, that would be around the time of something like Hexen.

 

[famia]

I don't have that game. I started with the NES.

The idea there is it's a hypothetical but possible scenario. I still play the original mario now and again. In an emulator though since my NES is already broken, but with a PC you can still install it with a new PC (granted you have DOS for the old games and microsoft keeps the platform intact). it's not longetivity, not the life of a game is for the media (shelf-life) but how long the life of a game is for the consumer. The DRM introduced in this game puts the gamers who still play their old games way after their shelf-life to question the what-ifs. I can imagine myself playing starcraft 20 years from now. What happens if I got the game liked it and all other games keeps reminding me about this game.

I have nothing against publishers/developers who wanted to protect their products. My problem lies in how they do it. For comparison, I still got casette tapes of classic musics(from the 70's) and a working stereo to put the casette on. If this was introduced then and I wanted to hear the casette now does that mean I have to go out and pay another sum for a CD (which in my country the famous ones are grossly overpriced, they go as high as 100 USD for Elvis' albums, I'm not even sure they are original. not kidding. in comparison to a new CD of recent artists which is worth 10 USD)?

I'm really curious how they will implement the removal of this DRM in the future. It's really interesting considering I'm in the software industry. I honestly can't come up with a solution to remove the DRM out of the box without releasing a new box or a patch.

 

[Blackmanta]

Because DRM will never get that bad. Ever. And I don't think anyone here believes that. All it does is prevents you from copying or cracking or whatever. And that really isn't a bad thing.

Preventing you from using certain programs, installed with out your consent and no uninstall. That is call malware. But I guess it is ok when you have pay for it.

 

[BigMac]

I'm really curious how they will implement the removal of this DRM in the future. It's really interesting considering I'm in the software industry. I honestly can't come up with a solution to remove the DRM out of the box without releasing a new box or a patch.

It is not particular interesting to pursue a claim nobody actually made, that DRM would be removed on out of the box products. I think it is perfectly acceptable to provide a fix/patch over the internet and if they put it in a number of public repositories (you know, these sites that provide access to game demos, patches, ingame movies, usually have game reviews as well) then you can be quite confident that this patch will be available for enough years. Are you confusing the issue on purpose or are you just new to the industry?

I don't think game publishers have a huge business case for making sure that games remain playable for 20+ years. It will always be up to gamer enthusiasts to keep the really old games alive, and some of the publishers provide games for free after a while or even make the full code public domain. You can make that one of your personal reasons for a buy/not buy decision. Now let's get back to the issue here which is the impact of DRM on customers of products that have been recently released.

 

[impar]

Greetings!

Because I don't care.

I am glad for you. However, I do care!

Might be a worthy thread to follow:
Need to re-install. Where is the "Revoke Application"?

 

[famia]

I'm not confusing the issue, and sorry if it looks that way.

The developers said that the activation will be removed. It's just that since the activation is placed out of the box and the impact of this activation as I see it is more on long-term than short-term. I don't think a patch is good enough as it might get lost. Unlike a no-cd patch which I can live without, being unable to activate means I won't be able to play. For those sites that keeps old softwares, most of them are being hunted and closed down by authorities as most of them keeps a free version of softwares that after some point was made retail.

Now let's get back to the issue here which is the impact of DRM on customers of products that have been recently released.

For me this is one of the impacts, while some might play a game for a month or so then forget about it. I personally don't. I'm a customer, this DRM impacts me this way. So with that, I think I'm on topic.

While I might be looking a bit far ahead, for me it just comes naturally (I gues $50 is just a lot when converted to our economy and I'm not particularly rich so I scrutinate my buys for everything not just games). I also don't like softwares that rely on an architecture that it does not need just so that it can check if I'm pirating or not. Here it's internet. Yes argue all you want about it being common, but it does go down sometimes. What if it's down for weeks? Like what happens in asia when the lines broke down. Does that mean that no BioShock for me until the lines get fixed.

While the business doesn't neccessarily need to make a business case for making a game available for X years. Adding a feature that can make the game potentially unplayable in X years is a step back in my opinion. Not to mention that it is not needed, there are other DRM softwares that are less intrusive, less flawed and works just as good.

 

[BigMac]

I'm not confusing the issue, and sorry if it looks that way.

The developers said that the activation will be removed. It's just that since the activation is placed out of the box and the impact of this activation as I see it is more on long-term than short-term. I don't think a patch is good enough as it might get lost.

It certainly looks that way and this is the last bit of attention I'm going to spend on it. If you are considerate enough with your own stuf to keep the original box/CD/DVD of a game with you for 15+ years, then you should also be considerate enough to save the patch when it is released on a medium that you can keep with the box/CD/DVD. You can add those to the other patches that will be out, improving the game further and fixing annoying bugs that ruin gameplay in the original version in your box.

In a timeframe of 15 to 20 years I think you should worry more whether you will still be able to load the original software from the medium that the game came on. I don't think we'll have DVD storage anymore in that timeframe, just as the floppies on which Leisure Suit Larry came on in those days cannot be read anymore either (by Joe average Gamer).

Are you going to talk about medium degradation next (you probably forgot about that)? Pulease...

Can we move on now?

Just for your understanding, I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm just trying to point out that this is a very minor issue indeed compared to the other issues that being put forward. You don't have to believe me, but I'm done on this particular angle.