Question Bizarre problem getting new system to boot to the BIOS ?

[optorian]

This is a continuation of another thread about the same subject that's gotten to be nearly 4 months old. I took a pretty long break from this project due to how much it was frustrating me, but recently I took it to a professional, and thought that I had the problem solved on two separate occasions, though for some reason, its not.

This started with me buying a new mobo, cpu, psu, case, nvme ssd, and cpu cooler to upgrade my current rig, though with all of the new components, its more so me salvaging some parts from my old rig to put into a new one. The problem started when I tried to put all the components together on the mobo box and get it to post, but it never did. All that would happen when I tried to get it to post, was the no input screen on my monitor flashing. when I kept the system running the no input screen would come up multiple times as if it had an input for a split second and lost it (usually when there is no input it goes into sleep mode and doesn't come back on unless there is an input).

I tried to clear the cmos, reseated the ram, and I reseated the gpu. Nothing seemed to work, so I decided to return the cpu and mobo in case either was a DOA part. i also tested the psu with a multimeter, and I knew the gpu and ram worked fine because I'm currently using them both in my old system. When I got the new parts, I set everything up, and it posted. I then took out the 24-pin connector from the motherboard, and the realized I should probably boot to bios just to make sure I can, and when I plugged it back in, it went back to not being able to post at all no matter what I tried. so I eventually just got frustrated with the whole ordeal and tried to get a friend to take a look at it, but over the course of a couple months, he kind of flaked out on me.

After that, I eventually just said screw it and took it to a local pc repair shop. I initially only took my new parts, that being the mobo, psu, cpu, nvme, and cooler. I did this because i knew my other parts worked in my current rig, and I didn't want to be without a pc for however long it was gonna take (bad reasons lol). so he calls me back and tells me he got it to post. what he did was, he had the same issue when the graphics card was in the top pcie slot, but he moved it to the bottom slot, and got it to post, then he updated the bios, and the card worked in the top slot, and he could boot to bios just fine (he did it about 5 times he said, and he did it in front of me). Then I go home, put it all together and no dice, same issue.

I tried moving the card from slot to slot, tried removing ram sticks and trying it with only 1 stick, nothing worked. Then I took it back to the guy, this time with my graphics card, and within 15 mins, he got it to boot to bios. he said he removed two of my sticks of ram, because they weren't compatible with the motherboard apparently (the two sticks being 16 gigs of ballistix ddr4 sport). He said that the other two sticks of ram worked fine (16 gigs of ballistix ddr4 crucial). he showed me it boot to bios, and initially it didn't actually boot, it had the same issue. when that happened, he turned the system off, and then turned it back on, and it worked fine.

So with this new information, I get back home, and try again only to encounter the same issue. through this whole process I've kept the anti static bag from the mobo, under the mobo, atop the mobo box to test it. I remember reading something about that might cause problems, so I try again tonight without the bag under the board, and first try, it worked. Then i do exactly the following: turn off the system by flicking the power supply off, I wait a few seconds, flick the power supply back on, jump the connectors to switch the system on, and encounter the dreaded problem. I did nothing else, didn't touch any cables, didn't touch any connectors, I have zero clue what possibly could have happened between the time the system booted to bios, and the time it decided it didn't want to work. I'm really at a loss here, and I feel like its something really stupid that I'm doing wrong, but I don't understand what it could be at all. any help is much appreciated.

CPU: i5 12400f - NEW
CPU cooler: id-cooling se 224-xst - NEW
Motherboard: Asus tuf gaming b660m-plus wifi d4 - NEW
Ram: 4 sticks of crucial ballistic 8gb ddr4 - 4-5 years old but still works in old PC
SSD: Samsung 970 Evo plus 1tb nvme - NEW
GPU: MSI RTX 2060 Super - 4-5 years ago, still works in old PC
PSU: EVGA Supernova 650 gt - NEW
Chassis: fractal pop air rgb - NEW
OS: windows 10 not installed
Monitor: not 100% sure what model, but it's a 144hz Sceptre - 4ish years

Old Thread: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/new-pc-posts-once-then-wont-post.3803465/

 

[Aeacus]

It was a long read, but my advice: call the repair guy at your place and try to work out the issues at your home. Maybe even pay him to assemble the rig fully for you, at your place, once the breadboarding is a success.

As of what is going on, once the PC is powered on and you're in BIOS, let it sit there for a while. Don't flip it off at an instant. (I even did 3-4 exit BIOS, POST, back to BIOS loops when i breadboarded mine, before powering off.)
Once you've shut down the PC (flipped PSU switch), do not power on the build at an instant. Instead, let the build sit at least a minute. <- This was so true with old hardware (PATA/IDE days), where you had to wait until you powered the PC on again. I haven't tested it with newer hardware but it still can be true even today. For electronics, any electronics, it isn't good when it is constantly powered on and off, without having time for small capacitors on MoBo/in PSU to drain from power.

 

[optorian]

It was a long read, but my advice: call the repair guy at your place and try to work out the issues at your home. Maybe even pay him to assemble the rig fully for you, at your place, once the breadboarding is a success.

As of what is going on, once the PC is powered on and you're in BIOS, let it sit there for a while. Don't flip it off at an instant. (I even did 3-4 exit BIOS, POST, back to BIOS loops when i breadboarded mine, before powering off.)
Once you've shut down the PC (flipped PSU switch), do not power on the build at an instant. Instead, let the build sit at least a minute. <- This was so true with old hardware (PATA/IDE days), where you had to wait until you powered the PC on again. I haven't tested it with newer hardware but it still can be true even today. For electronics, any electronics, it isn't good when it is constantly powered on and off, without having time for small capacitors on MoBo/in PSU to drain from power.

Alright so I tried what you said. I took all my parts out of their boxes, set it all up, and first time I start it up, it works. I sit in bios and exit the bios a good 5-10 times, and I let it sit for like 10 mins minimum. I then powered it off, and let it sit for around 8 minutes. I powered it on and still the same issue occured. I then unplugged the PSU and jumped the starter pins for about 20 seconds to drain the capacitors and tried to power it on but still, same problem. Then I unplugged all PSU connectors from the board, and took out the GPU, and pulled out the cmos battery, and waited about 8 minutes. I put the battery in and start it all up, but still nothing. For whatever reason, it seems to want to work when I pull everything out for the night, and wait about 8 hours before I try anything again? Idk tbh this just brings up more questions than it answers.

 

[Aeacus]

For whatever reason, it seems to want to work when I pull everything out for the night, and wait about 8 hours before I try anything again?

This symptom tells me to replace the PSU.

Sure, EVGA SuperNova GT is good quality, but there are lemons, even among the best. And as long as you don't try with 2nd, good quality, known to work PSU (e.g top-of-the-line Seasonic PRIME, Corsair AXi or Super Flower Leadex Titanium), you can not rule out PSU issue.

Also, might want to use different power socket in your home, just in case issue is with main power delivery.

 

[optorian]

This symptom tells me to replace the PSU.

Sure, EVGA SuperNova GT is good quality, but there are lemons, even among the best. And as long as you don't try with 2nd, good quality, known to work PSU (e.g top-of-the-line Seasonic PRIME, Corsair AXi or Super Flower Leadex Titanium), you can not rule out PSU issue.

Also, might want to use different power socket in your home, just in case issue is with main power delivery.

Hmm, the only problem is I don't know if Amazon will exchange it when it's been 4 months since I bought it. I know I multimeter tested it and the guy tested it with whatever device he's got. But that is one of the only parts I haven't replaced so I'll see what I can do, but is there anything else I could possibly be in the meantime? Thank you again for the help with all this.

 

[Aeacus]

For PC to operate, 4 components are needed: CPU, MoBo, RAM, PSU.

But since you have F-suffix CPU, without iGPU, you'll also need dedicated GPU as well.
Monitor is there to see what PC is doing and KB/mice are for input.

So, your issues come down to those 5 components.

Multimeter testing doesn't do anything, since there's 0 load on PSU when you test it. To know for sure that PSU works fine, you have to use high quality (and very expensive) PSU testing equipment that puts the PSU under load, while monitoring all what PSU outputs.

Oh, always use only 1 stick of RAM when breadboarding. Might even switch out the RAM stick, just to see if it helps.

All-in-all, it's difficult to say why your build acts up.
Also, it doesn't help that your CPU is F-suffix, since it adds dedicated GPU in the mix, complicating things even more. <- This is essentially main reason, why i don't suggest anyone to get CPU without iGPU. Sure, 99% of times, iGPU in CPU isn't used and is essentially useless. But the remaining 1%, when PC acts up, it is godsend when you can take out your GPU, connect monitor to MoBo and see if issue is with dedicated GPU or not. Also, iGPU is great redundancy when dedicated GPU happens to die, since you can still continue using the PC, with monitor hooked to MoBo.

 

[optorian]

Gotcha, then I'll be sure to get this psu swapped out, I'll update you when I get the replacement

 

[optorian]

For PC to operate, 4 components are needed: CPU, MoBo, RAM, PSU.

But since you have F-suffix CPU, without iGPU, you'll also need dedicated GPU as well.
Monitor is there to see what PC is doing and KB/mice are for input.

So, your issues come down to those 5 components.

Multimeter testing doesn't do anything, since there's 0 load on PSU when you test it. To know for sure that PSU works fine, you have to use high quality (and very expensive) PSU testing equipment that puts the PSU under load, while monitoring all what PSU outputs.

Oh, always use only 1 stick of RAM when breadboarding. Might even switch out the RAM stick, just to see if it helps.

All-in-all, it's difficult to say why your build acts up.
Also, it doesn't help that your CPU is F-suffix, since it adds dedicated GPU in the mix, complicating things even more. <- This is essentially main reason, why i don't suggest anyone to get CPU without iGPU. Sure, 99% of times, iGPU in CPU isn't used and is essentially useless. But the remaining 1%, when PC acts up, it is godsend when you can take out your GPU, connect monitor to MoBo and see if issue is with dedicated GPU or not. Also, iGPU is great redundancy when dedicated GPU happens to die, since you can still continue using the PC, with monitor hooked to MoBo.

alright, got the new psu finally, tried it out about an hour ago and same issue. I'm going to call the repair guy and see if i can just bring my stuff over, and have him watch me put it all together and see if any of this is user error. my only other guess would be that when i returned either the board or the cpu, they sent me another doa one, but i feel like that's very unlikely.

 

[Aeacus]

my only other guess would be that when i returned either the board or the cpu, they sent me another doa one, but i feel like that's very unlikely.

About that; i've seen countless of cases where people have gotten DOA as 2nd or even 3rd replacement. Both on PSUs and MoBos. So, for my eyes, this isn't that unheard of. Of course, there's also the fact that i'm on the tech support side of things and all cases i see, are to do with PC acting up. Those PCs that operate fine, i won't get to see, since there's nothing to report about.

So, while my experience would suggest some foul play on the hardware replacement part and it's more like hit or miss, i have to remind myself that this is actually very small percentage of all returns ever made.
Sometimes, even my morale gets low, since all what i see, are PC failures. While there are actually far more success stories out there. It's like where doctor may think that all people in the world are sick, since he only sees sick people. Or car mechanic thinking that all cars out there are broken, since he only sees broken cars.

But yeah, get the repair guy out and go over the PC on-site.

 

[optorian]

About that; i've seen countless of cases where people have gotten DOA as 2nd or even 3rd replacement. Both on PSUs and MoBos. So, for my eyes, this isn't that unheard of. Of course, there's also the fact that i'm on the tech support side of things and all cases i see, are to do with PC acting up. Those PCs that operate fine, i won't get to see, since there's nothing to report about.

So, while my experience would suggest some foul play on the hardware replacement part and it's more like hit or miss, i have to remind myself that this is actually very small percentage of all returns ever made.
Sometimes, even my morale gets low, since all what i see, are PC failures. While there are actually far more success stories out there. It's like where doctor may think that all people in the world are sick, since he only sees sick people. Or car mechanic thinking that all cars out there are broken, since he only sees broken cars.

But yeah, get the repair guy out and go over the PC on-site.

Don't companies usually have safeguards when it comes to rma? Like they send you hardware that has actually been tested and known to work?

 

[Aeacus]

Don't companies usually have safeguards when it comes to rma? Like they send you hardware that has actually been tested and known to work?

Policy differs from what is actually done. Also, retailers are keen to reject RMA.
Speaking of it, 1.5 years ago, DOA case happened with Steve (GamersNexus), and Steve showed the entire world how Newegg does it's business.
It blew up, big time.

1st vid:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fnXsmXzphI


Follow up:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL-eB_Bv5Ik


And of course, there are more videos to this saga on GamersNexus channel. You can look them up if interested.

But long story shot was:
* High-end Gigabyte Z490 chipset MoBo got CPU socket damage. It is unclear when the CPU socket got damaged.
* Newegg shipped the MoBo to manufacturer (Gigabyte) to asses damage. (July 2021)
* Gigabyte offered to repair the MoBo for 100 bucks. Newegg declined the repair and broken MoBo was shipped back to Newegg. (Around Oct 2021)
* Newegg put the broken MoBo on sale, at 600 bucks (original price 800), where Steve bought it as "open box" item. (Around Dec 2021)
* Steve even didn't open the shipping box and instead returned the MoBo within 30 days to get his money back.
* Once Mobo arrived to Newegg, they checked it and said Steve damaged the MoBo. With this, Newegg rejected the return and also didn't pay back the money. (Feb 2022)
* Steve then made videos about it and showed the world how Newegg operates.

The rest of the saga is in videos.

Steve's case wasn't the only one regarding Newegg and their refusal of MoBo RMA, clamining user made CPU socket damage. But Steve's case was a good one, since Steve showed the entire world how untrustworthy Newegg is.

 

[optorian]

Policy differs from what is actually done. Also, retailers are keen to reject RMA.
Speaking of it, 1.5 years ago, DOA case happened with Steve (GamersNexus), and Steve showed the entire world how Newegg does it's business.
It blew up, big time.

1st vid:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fnXsmXzphI


Follow up:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL-eB_Bv5Ik


And of course, there are more videos to this saga on GamersNexus channel. You can look them up if interested.

But long story shot was:
* High-end Gigabyte Z490 chipset MoBo got CPU socket damage. It is unclear when the CPU socket got damaged.
* Newegg shipped the MoBo to manufacturer (Gigabyte) to asses damage. (July 2021)
* Gigabyte offered to repair the MoBo for 100 bucks. Newegg declined the repair and broken MoBo was shipped back to Newegg. (Around Oct 2021)
* Newegg put the broken MoBo on sale, at 600 bucks (original price 800), where Steve bought it as "open box" item. (Around Dec 2021)
* Steve even didn't open the shipping box and instead returned the MoBo within 30 days to get his money back.
* Once Mobo arrived to Newegg, they checked it and said Steve damaged the MoBo. With this, Newegg rejected the return and also didn't pay back the money. (Feb 2022)
* Steve then made videos about it and showed the world how Newegg operates.

The rest of the saga is in videos.

Steve's case wasn't the only one regarding Newegg and their refusal of MoBo RMA, clamining user made CPU socket damage. But Steve's case was a good one, since Steve showed the entire world how untrustworthy Newegg is.

just got a new board from rma. same problem happening, im gonna try to take it to the initial guy that had it working. im really at a loss man, this is gnawing at me lmao.

 

[Aeacus]

Your issue is quite perplexing actually. Since with PC hardware, it takes only CPU, MoBo and 1 stick of RAM for successful POST and enter BIOS (PSU too to power it). Once you can enter BIOS, PC essentially is working fine.

You could try with non-F suffix CPU, so that you don't have to put dedicated GPU in the system, instead hooking monitor directly to MoBo. Less failure points this way.
At this point, i'd try with 2nd CPU, that has iGPU. 2nd CPU doesn't have to be beefy for testing, e.g Pentium G7400 or Celeron 6900 would do fine.

 

[optorian]

Your issue is quite perplexing actually. Since with PC hardware, it takes only CPU, MoBo and 1 stick of RAM for successful POST and enter BIOS (PSU too to power it). Once you can enter BIOS, PC essentially is working fine.

You could try with non-F suffix CPU, so that you don't have to put dedicated GPU in the system, instead hooking monitor directly to MoBo. Less failure points this way.
At this point, i'd try with 2nd CPU, that has iGPU. 2nd CPU doesn't have to be beefy for testing, e.g Pentium G7400 or Celeron 6900 would do fine.

Alright so I took it to the guy, and I just had him build the whole thing, and he got it to boot to bios 100% of the time, and left it on overnight. So I took it home and tried it again just now and same exact problem. I think I know what's going on though. I had a suspicion that it might be something to do with the outlet that I'm using, because I live in a house that was build in the 1920s. I tested the outlet with a multimeter, and neutral to hot came back around 120 as it should. Then I tested ground to neutral and got around 15 which is not supposed to happen. I also tried neutral to hot and got around the same when it's meant to be 120. So I checked the outlet and noticed that the ground wire was attached to the metal box which I'm no electrician, but idk if that grounds the outlet or not. So I put the ground on the actual outlet and nothing really changed. I realized that not too long ago, the plugs in my room used to be two prongs, but either I or my dad put in a 3 prong outlet, which lead me to find you're supposed to put in a gfci outlet if you're changing a 2 to a 3 prong. So I did that and still nothing lol. When I talked to the guy when I picked up the PC, I talked with him about all this, and when I told him about the ground to neutral reading, he said that somewhere along the circuit, a neutral isn't making proper contact with the outlet and that's what's giving that reading. So my current plan is to check all the outlets on the breaker that my room is on. Idk if anyone knows much about electrical wiring, but would this cause my problem? I feel like there is literally no other variation other than the outlet at this point.

 

[Aeacus]

Not an electrician myself, so, can't comment on electricity grid issues.

Hiring licensed electrician should help you to find the root cause if it.

 

[optorian]

Not an electrician myself, so, can't comment on electricity grid issues.

Hiring licensed electrician should help you to find the root cause if it.

Alright, this 5 month long technological torture session is over, and the solution was the stupidest thing ever. I brought my PC to my gfs house to test it out on her outlets, and when I plugged it in, it kept giving me the same issue as always. Then the only variable left was the monitor, and since I'm building her a new PC, I decided to try out her monitor and dp cable. And it worked perfectly fine. Then I tried my monitor and her dp cable, and it work perfectly fine. The whole time it was the dp cable. I didn't even think of it because the cable worked with my old system, so I have no clue why it doesn't work with the new system, but I don't really care. I'm just glad it's finally over lmao