Question Changing motherboard, processor (from FX-8350 to Ryzen 5 3600) and Ram.

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Darkbreeze

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Memtest86


Go to the Passmark software website and download the USB Memtest86 free version. You can do the optical disk version too if for some reason you cannot use a bootable USB flash drive.

Create bootable media using the downloaded Memtest86 (NOT Memtest86+, that is a different, older version and is outdated). Once you have done that, go into your BIOS and configure the system to boot to the USB drive that contains the Memtest86 USB media or the optical drive if using that option.


Create a bootable USB Flash drive:

1. Download the Windows MemTest86 USB image.

2. Right click on the downloaded file and select the "Extract to Here" option. This places the USB image and imaging tool into the current folder.

3. Run the included imageUSB tool, it should already have the image file selected and you just need to choose which connected USB drive to turn into a bootable drive. Note that this will erase all data on the drive.



No memory should ever fail to pass Memtest86 when it is at the default configuration that the system sets it at when you start out or do a clear CMOS by removing the CMOS battery for five minutes.

Best method for testing memory is to first run four passes of Memtest86, all 11 tests, WITH the memory at the default configuration. This should be done BEFORE setting the memory to the XMP profile settings. The paid version has 13 tests but the free version only has tests 1-10 and test 13. So run full passes of all 11 tests. Be sure to download the latest version of Memtest86. Memtest86+ has not been updated in MANY years. It is NO-WISE as good as regular Memtest86 from Passmark software.

If there are ANY errors, at all, then the memory configuration is not stable. Bumping the DRAM voltage up slightly may resolve that OR you may need to make adjustments to the primary timings. There are very few secondary or tertiary timings that should be altered. I can tell you about those if you are trying to tighten your memory timings.

If you cannot pass Memtest86 with the memory at the XMP configuration settings then I would recommend restoring the memory to the default JEDEC SPD of 1333/2133mhz (Depending on your platform and memory type) with everything left on the auto/default configuration and running Memtest86 over again. If it completes the four full passes without error you can try again with the XMP settings but first try bumping the DRAM voltage up once again by whatever small increment the motherboard will allow you to increase it by. If it passes, great, move on to the Prime95 testing.

If it still fails, try once again bumping the voltage if you are still within the maximum allowable voltage for your memory type and test again. If it still fails, you are likely going to need more advanced help with configuring your primary timings and should return the memory to the default configuration until you can sort it out.

If the memory will not pass Memtest86 for four passes when it IS at the stock default non-XMP configuration, even after a minor bump in voltage, then there is likely something physically wrong with one or more of the memory modules and I'd recommend running Memtest on each individual module, separately, to determine which module is causing the issue. If you find a single module that is faulty you should contact the seller or the memory manufacturer and have them replace the memory as a SET. Memory comes matched for a reason as I made clear earlier and if you let them replace only one module rather than the entire set you are back to using unmatched memory which is an open door for problems with incompatible memory.

Be aware that you SHOULD run Memtest86 to test the memory at the default, non-XMP, non-custom profile settings BEFORE ever making any changes to the memory configuration so that you will know if the problem is a setting or is a physical problem with the memory.
 

newc1975

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most of the times, freezing while gaming or word processing has been the ram to be suspicious... use 1 stick and then test all the ram modules and motherboard ram ports and see which is faulty, also it can happen if u have unknowinly bent any cpu pins...
Thanks - I'll try the single stick test in the different modules and see if it makes a difference. I doubt if I bent a CPU pin - it slid into the socket very easily...thanks for your input
 

Darkbreeze

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Even if it went easily into the socket, if you did not keep one finger lightly pressing down on the CPU while you locked the lever arm down, I've seen them raise just enough that at a certain point, a few pins along one side of the CPU slightly bends. What that does is it either breaks the connection for those pins or shorts them to something. It's not common, but I have seen it happen. If before too long you can figure the problem out I would absolutely check for that but you'll want to make sure you have some replacement thermal paste and a bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol on hand before you do because you will need it to repaste the CPU and put it back together again if nothing is wrong.
 

newc1975

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Even if it went easily into the socket, if you did not keep one finger lightly pressing down on the CPU while you locked the lever arm down, I've seen them raise just enough that at a certain point, a few pins along one side of the CPU slightly bends. What that does is it either breaks the connection for those pins or shorts them to something. It's not common, but I have seen it happen. If before too long you can figure the problem out I would absolutely check for that but you'll want to make sure you have some replacement thermal paste and a bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol on hand before you do because you will need it to repaste the CPU and put it back together again if nothing is wrong.
Update - I tried 1 stick then the other in several Ram slots - still freezes.
I will check the CPU
I don't see the point in testing the ram any further unless there is a possibility that both sticks are bad. I've never adjusted Ram speeds (at least manually). The "good news" is when playing a game the computer freezes usually within the first 10 minutes of play - so if it's going to freeze - it doesn't take long to tell.

OH and BTW - Norton screwed up you tube video play in a bad way. I have it turned off at the moment and will likely uninstall it for now - going back to Win Defender, this freezing issue is complicated enough., I'll deal with Norton after fixing the freezing issue.
 

Darkbreeze

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Norton sucks, and has been problematic for years. Windows defender actually beats them all out in the most recent roundup anyhow if you consider the fact that it tied three other top paid options, while being free, AND while not having ANY of the major code bloat associated with Norton and others. Especially Norton. Might as well just install a virus yourself as use Norton for as much as it flubs up your system.

Honestly, I've seen Norton and Kaspersky end up being the ENTIRE problem on a number of systems where we couldn't find a culprit until looking at installed programs and those ended up being the issue. Antiviral and malware utilities are always a potential culprit.
 

newc1975

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Norton sucks, and has been problematic for years. Windows defender actually beats them all out in the most recent roundup anyhow if you consider the fact that it tied three other top paid options, while being free, AND while not having ANY of the major code bloat associated with Norton and others. Especially Norton. Might as well just install a virus yourself as use Norton for as much as it flubs up your system.

Honestly, I've seen Norton and Kaspersky end up being the ENTIRE problem on a number of systems where we couldn't find a culprit until looking at installed programs and those ended up being the issue. Antiviral and malware utilities are always a potential culprit.

Update 12-12-19. Machine still freezes randomly. Yesterday it actually froze at the Win 10 logon screen. Today, it froze when trying to log onto my yahoo e-mail. It freezes for 10-15 seconds - then seems to operate normally. Sometimes it freezes while watching a youtube video. This freezing could happen once an hour to once in 3 hours. I did take the CPU out to inspect for bent pins - I found none. I am now running the latest BETA BIOS from MSI - runs great except I still have the freezing. I uninstalled Norton - using Win defender. Ran the system on one single RAM stick - then the other - in different slots - didn't make a difference. Tried USB generic mouse and keyboard - no change. All drivers are up to date. I have run several stress tests (3D Mark), Heaven Benchmark - all run flawlessly. Tried disconnecting all the storage drives (except the SSD WIN drive - no difference. Ran WD and Seagate storage drive tests - no failures. Ran Win 10 memory tests - no issues.

Rig:
CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600 (new)
MOBO - MSI Tomahawk B450 MS 7C02 (new)- BIOS 1.D 1 BETA
GPU RX 5700 8 GIG (new)
RAM - 2X8 Ballistix 3200 DDR4 (new)
PSU - EVGA GQ 750 (new)
Storage:
SSD PNY CS1111 240 GIG (Win 10 home - 10.0.18363 Build 18363 - fresh install)
HDD Seagate Firecuda 2TB (new)
HDD Seagate Barracuda 1 TB
HDD Easystore 1TB (USB backup)
Monitor - ACER KG240 freesync
Sound - Realtek onboard
Speakers - Creative Inspire T3-100 2.1
Optical drives - 2
Mouse and Keyboard - Redragon Model S101-3 gaming
 

Sohom

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Update 12-12-19. Machine still freezes randomly. Yesterday it actually froze at the Win 10 logon screen. Today, it froze when trying to log onto my yahoo e-mail. It freezes for 10-15 seconds - then seems to operate normally. Sometimes it freezes while watching a youtube video. This freezing could happen once an hour to once in 3 hours. I did take the CPU out to inspect for bent pins - I found none. I am now running the latest BETA BIOS from MSI - runs great except I still have the freezing. I uninstalled Norton - using Win defender. Ran the system on one single RAM stick - then the other - in different slots - didn't make a difference. Tried USB generic mouse and keyboard - no change. All drivers are up to date. I have run several stress tests (3D Mark), Heaven Benchmark - all run flawlessly. Tried disconnecting all the storage drives (except the SSD WIN drive - no difference. Ran WD and Seagate storage drive tests - no failures. Ran Win 10 memory tests - no issues.

Rig:
CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600 (new)
MOBO - MSI Tomahawk B450 MS 7C02 (new)- BIOS 1.D 1 BETA
GPU RX 5700 8 GIG (new)
RAM - 2X8 Ballistix 3200 DDR4 (new)
PSU - EVGA GQ 750 (new)
Storage:
SSD PNY CS1111 240 GIG (Win 10 home - 10.0.18363 Build 18363 - fresh install)
HDD Seagate Firecuda 2TB (new)
HDD Seagate Barracuda 1 TB
HDD Easystore 1TB (USB backup)
Monitor - ACER KG240 freesync
Sound - Realtek onboard
Speakers - Creative Inspire T3-100 2.1
Optical drives - 2
Mouse and Keyboard - Redragon Model S101-3 gaming
try running the ram at 2933 mhz and see if the freezing stops...
 

newc1975

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try running the ram at 2933 mhz and see if the freezing stops...
According to CPU-Z my Ram has been running at 2399.4 {1199.7X2} (default settings in the BIOS) - freezing is occurring
I just noticed that on the Ram stick it says - w/XMP - If I enable XMP in the BIOS it runs at 3199.4 {1599.6X2} ( I just tried this today) - will see if it makes a difference.

I am not very familiar with changing RAM and CPU settings in the BIOS - I don't overclock - I normally just use default settings in the BIOS.
 

Darkbreeze

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And THAT, can be a problem. These days, it's VERY rare, except on OEM type systems that have very limited BIOS options anyhow, that you can get away without at least making handful of changes in the BIOS setup program. And for memory, unless you are running 2133mhz sticks, it's practically never.

You ALWAYS have to enable the XMP profile in the BIOS if you are running memory that is profiled faster than the CPU can support by default. For Ryzen, that has generally been 2133mhz. Supposedly X570 supports 3200mhz by default but most users I've helped that have X570 boards have been seeing them default to 2133mhz. So anything over that, or for the advertised profile of the memory in general as hard coded/imprinted on the memory module itself, needs to be set in the BIOS using the XMP, A-XMP or DOCP profile settings.

XMP at 3199.4 is the same as 3200mhz, which should be right if your sticks are 3200mhz sticks. That could definitely have an impact on latency and lag, but I'm not sure it would cause any freezing, however anything is possible and I'd never rule anything out until I know for sure.
 

newc1975

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And THAT, can be a problem. These days, it's VERY rare, except on OEM type systems that have very limited BIOS options anyhow, that you can get away without at least making handful of changes in the BIOS setup program. And for memory, unless you are running 2133mhz sticks, it's practically never.

You ALWAYS have to enable the XMP profile in the BIOS if you are running memory that is profiled faster than the CPU can support by default. For Ryzen, that has generally been 2133mhz. Supposedly X570 supports 3200mhz by default but most users I've helped that have X570 boards have been seeing them default to 2133mhz. So anything over that, or for the advertised profile of the memory in general as hard coded/imprinted on the memory module itself, needs to be set in the BIOS using the XMP, A-XMP or DOCP profile settings.

XMP at 3199.4 is the same as 3200mhz, which should be right if your sticks are 3200mhz sticks. That could definitely have an impact on latency and lag, but I'm not sure it would cause any freezing, however anything is possible and I'd never rule anything out until I know for sure.

OK - so I have enabled the XMP and the RAM runs at 3199.4. What other changes should I be making in the BIOS set up?
 

Darkbreeze

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Setting the memory profile is the biggest one, especially if you have fast memory installed.

Others settings that might be of importance are ensuring Cool N Quiet is enabled for AMD platforms or Intel speed step for Intel platforms. I also like to disable Intel speed SHIFT, because I have yet to find it work properly on anything.

Usually, when running Windows 10, you want to make sure the primary boot device is set to "Windows boot manager", rather than any specific drive letter or designation. Usually. I've encountered a couple of instances where the drive itself had to be enabled on some legacy Windows 10 configurations but for UEFI configurations you want the boot manager. Probably doesn't apply here because you probably already have it set to that by default anyhow.

There's lots of changes that might be necessary, based on the configuration. For people with M.2 NVME drives there may be settings that have to be changed in order for THAT to work right, especially as a boot device. And sometimes nothing special needs done.

Obviously, for people who are overclocking there are a TON of options that might be desirable or necessary, that people running the stock configuration would never need to worry about.
 

newc1975

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Setting the memory profile is the biggest one, especially if you have fast memory installed.

Others settings that might be of importance are ensuring Cool N Quiet is enabled for AMD platforms or Intel speed step for Intel platforms. I also like to disable Intel speed SHIFT, because I have yet to find it work properly on anything.

Usually, when running Windows 10, you want to make sure the primary boot device is set to "Windows boot manager", rather than any specific drive letter or designation. Usually. I've encountered a couple of instances where the drive itself had to be enabled on some legacy Windows 10 configurations but for UEFI configurations you want the boot manager. Probably doesn't apply here because you probably already have it set to that by default anyhow.

There's lots of changes that might be necessary, based on the configuration. For people with M.2 NVME drives there may be settings that have to be changed in order for THAT to work right, especially as a boot device. And sometimes nothing special needs done.

Obviously, for people who are overclocking there are a TON of options that might be desirable or necessary, that people running the stock configuration would never need to worry about.

I made the following changes to the BIOS:
XMP - enabled
AMD Cool and Quiet - changed from AUTO to Enabled
There is an option in the OC section of the BIOS for "Game Boost" which the MOBO manual says is for those who are unfamiliar with overclocking - I Enabled it
I checked the Boot section of the BIOS and could not find " Windows boot manager" as an option - is it somewhere other than the Boot section of the BIOS?

Thanks as always for your help!
 

Darkbreeze

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I would turn game boost back off.

I wouldn't worry about the boot settings. If it's working, just leave it. You would probably need to change a few settings AND then do a complete clean install of Windows in order to get a full UEFI installation, which would result in seeing the Windows boot manager. One thing to check though, is that in the secure boot or other area of the boot settings that the OS version is set to Windows 8/10 and not "Other OS". If that was set to "Other OS" when Windows was installed, that is probably why it is not a full UEFI installation.
 

newc1975

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I would turn game boost back off.

I wouldn't worry about the boot settings. If it's working, just leave it. You would probably need to change a few settings AND then do a complete clean install of Windows in order to get a full UEFI installation, which would result in seeing the Windows boot manager. One thing to check though, is that in the secure boot or other area of the boot settings that the OS version is set to Windows 8/10 and not "Other OS". If that was set to "Other OS" when Windows was installed, that is probably why it is not a full UEFI installation.
Game Boost - turned back off.

I was looking for "Windows Boot manager" in the BIOS but could not find it.
There were two sections that mentioned UEFI. One was in the advanced settings. It was under Windows OS Configuration. If I set it to UEFI - it won't boot - it just keeps bringing me back into the BIOS screen.

I also found it in the Boot section of the BIOS. There was a setting for Boot Mode Select: UEFI or UEFGI & Legacy.

If I set it to UEFI - the boot order is only UEFI componanats (like UEFI hard drive, or UEFI USB) - under that setting - the machine won't boot. It has to be set at UEFI& Legacy - then it boots.

I am willing to reinstall windows again if necessary.....

I am about to change the case - except for the optical drives it's the only component that is not new to this build. The other day I removed a USB device from one of the front USB ports and the machine shut down. I'm assuming there is a short of some kind in that USB port. Not sure that would affect the freezing issue (that is still occurring) but it will eliminate another variable.

This has been the most troublesome build for me - although I am gaining a ton of technical knowledge that I didn't have before! - Thanks
 

Darkbreeze

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It could absolutely affect it. If there is a USB port malfunctioning, well, USB ports and devices are high probability culprits for latency and lag issues. Whether due to driver problems related to a USB device, the USB device itself, or a USB port or wiring, they can all absolutely cause these exact types of problems MUCH as keyboards and mice often do which is why a lot of people recommend trying a different keyboard or mouse right off the bat when this kind of thing starts happening just to eliminate them. Sometimes it's the ports, not the hardware. Or even the motherboard, but obviously it's not AS likely since it's a new board. A spark from a USB port is probably a very HIGH indicator that something is wrong with the circuit whether it is the mini I/O board on the front of the case, or something further down the chain.

Try unplugging the wiring that comes from the front USB panel to the motherboard, and see if that solves the problem. Obviously, do so when it is powered off.

I don't think I would want you to worry about doing another installation of Windows until this problem is sorted out, since you just did one not long ago. Once the problem is resolved we can worry about getting you switched to a full UEFI installation assuming all your hardware is UEFI compatible.

If you are not using a legacy graphics card or motherboard, which you are not SFAIK, then it shouldn't be any problem to do that later and was likely a legacy installation due to the BIOS settings at the time of the Windows installation.
 

newc1975

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It could absolutely affect it. If there is a USB port malfunctioning, well, USB ports and devices are high probability culprits for latency and lag issues. Whether due to driver problems related to a USB device, the USB device itself, or a USB port or wiring, they can all absolutely cause these exact types of problems MUCH as keyboards and mice often do which is why a lot of people recommend trying a different keyboard or mouse right off the bat when this kind of thing starts happening just to eliminate them. Sometimes it's the ports, not the hardware. Or even the motherboard, but obviously it's not AS likely since it's a new board. A spark from a USB port is probably a very HIGH indicator that something is wrong with the circuit whether it is the mini I/O board on the front of the case, or something further down the chain.

Try unplugging the wiring that comes from the front USB panel to the motherboard, and see if that solves the problem. Obviously, do so when it is powered off.

I don't think I would want you to worry about doing another installation of Windows until this problem is sorted out, since you just did one not long ago. Once the problem is resolved we can worry about getting you switched to a full UEFI installation assuming all your hardware is UEFI compatible.

If you are not using a legacy graphics card or motherboard, which you are not SFAIK, then it shouldn't be any problem to do that later and was likely a legacy installation due to the BIOS settings at the time of the Windows installation.
I disconnected the front panel USB port that acted like it had a short. Sill getting the random short freezes. I still plan to replace the case but I have little hope that it will correct anything. Bought a case but I obviously didn't read the description properly - there were no optical drive bays. Returned it for one that has two.
 

newc1975

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Well, that sucks. Was hoping you had stumbled onto the problem.

I would download and install, and run. LatencyMon. See if that picks up anything.
I downloaded, installed and ran the LatencyMon testing.

While running the test – the screen froze for about 10-15 seconds – then unfroze. The timer on the test skipped ahead 15 seconds after it unfroze.

As I began to type this note (on a word processor) I typed the entire first line. When I looked up, the screen had locked on “I downloaded” - after about 10/15 seconds the system unfroze– and it completed the rest of the line as I had typed it.

BTW – I ran the LatencyMon test for 20 minutes – it found no errors.

I am going switch cases today – which will make the entire system new except for: SSD where Win 10 is installed, two optical drives, one of two HDD hard drives and my WD easy store backup drive.
 

Darkbreeze

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Disconnect EVERY SINGLE DRIVE, EXCEPT for the SSD that Windows 10 is installed on. The system can't be usable the way it is now anyhow, so those drives are not doing you much good and we need to keep them eliminated from the equation until you discover what the problem is. It may be that one of those drives is the problem. I've had similar issues before, especially with external USB drives, but any drive can be the problem.

One thing you could also do is download and install Seatools for Windows or Western digital lifeguard tools and run both the Short drive self test (Short DST) and Long generic (Extended) test on EVERY one of those drives as well as looking at the S.M.A.R.T data for them as well to make sure nothing is flagged there.
 

Darkbreeze

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Did you ever run Memtest on those memory modules like I suggested or did you just decide you weren't going to do that? If you did not do that, I would go back to the top of this page and do as outlined there. You have nothing to lose really and you might find the problem if you actually do the testing that is recommended. There is a reason we recommend specific tests be done at specific points in the process, which is to eliminate having to do a whole bunch of other crap for no reason. Right now, I don't think we really know that the memory is proven to not be the problem so it might be a good idea to do that before you go any further. Testing with just one stick or the other is not the same as testing the memory in general.
 

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newc1975

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Did you ever run Memtest on those memory modules like I suggested or did you just decide you weren't going to do that? If you did not do that, I would go back to the top of this page and do as outlined there. You have nothing to lose really and you might find the problem if you actually do the testing that is recommended. There is a reason we recommend specific tests be done at specific points in the process, which is to eliminate having to do a whole bunch of other crap for no reason. Right now, I don't think we really know that the memory is proven to not be the problem so it might be a good idea to do that before you go any further. Testing with just one stick or the other is not the same as testing the memory in general.
Ran the Memtest86 USB as directed. Disabled XMP settings first...everything set to default.
3.5 hours - 4 passes - no errors.
 

newc1975

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could run off a ubuntu live USB and see if it has same problems - https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-create-a-usb-stick-on-windows#0

if its stalling in the bios screen before windows ever loads, its not going to be windows.
unplugging drives makes sense

tests for the drives DB mentioned above
WD - https://support.wdc.com/downloads.aspx?p=3&lang=en

Seagate - https://www.seagate.com/au/en/support/downloads/seatools/seatools-win-master/
I know this has become a very long thread - as previously stated - I have run ALL the Seagate and WD drive tests - no issues found.

I have unplugged all the storage devices except the SSD Win drive - freezing still occurring. I'll research your ubuntu suggestion.

Thanks!
 

newc1975

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Update Christmas Eve morning - Merry Christmas All!
I changed cases to a new mid tower gaming case.
I can now play Borderlands 3 (my new game) without any significant freezing - previously is was freezing every 15 minutes or so for 15-30 seconds - then it would resume where it left off. Now - I only get a second or two stutter every once in a while.

I still get a momentary (10-15 seconds) freeze randomly when doing other operations - word processing, internet browsing, video streaming, audio playback. It SEEMS to be worse right after booting up.

Thanks, as always, for all of your suggestions and help.
 

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