China Finds Zen: Begins Production Of x86 Processors Based On AMD's IP

[bit_user]

Both of China's Supercomputers were in design by 2015 and the silicon was certainly being taped out by then.

Whether or not it was in development is separate from the question of whether it was planned to be used for this machine.

Since both of China's two top Supercomputers were on-line by November 2017 it is IMPOSSIBLE that China completely switched gears, created a new processor, boards and assembled 40,000+ processors ALL in 18 months. The assembly ALONE would have taken a year!!

So, you're saying the embargo wasn't targeted at a specific project, but just in anticipation of one?

And I don't know why those numbers are supposed to be relevant. If we're talking production volumes of desktop CPUs or motherboards, those are entirely unremarkable.

It did not delay any plans to bring a second machine on-line as they were both on-line by November 2017. THEY WERE ALREADY IN THE PIPELINE WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA EMBARGOED INTEL, AMD and nVidia.

Is this "supposition", or do you have good sources on this?

President Eisenhower made an excellent point to the National Security Council back in the 50's... 'We should sell the Russians anything they can't shoot back."

He probably didn't even imagine cyberwarfare.

Your analysis is all supposition. Stick with facts and leave the geopolitical analysis to those who actually know what they are talking about. You have absolutely NO CLUE what the message being sent to China was you just THINK you know.

As @SkyBill40 said, if you want us to weight your statements beyond speculation and conjecture, then give us credentials or sources.

I have no better sources than what I've read on nextplatform, wikipedia, and what Paul just cited, above. I'm pretty sure I read something on nextplatform about their shift to sourcing domestic silicon after the embargo hit. They talked about a couple different candidates that were considered, as well as some background of the Sunway SW26010 that was selected. I'll post the link if I find it.

 

[bit_user]

As is usually the case with government analysis, they thought China was not capable of bringing a top tier supercomputer on-line and a simple embargo would set them back.

Clearly they were wrong. They were just as wrong when it was commonly thought Russian and China would not have a bomb for 20 years. Ooops.

Espionage, be it corporate or otherwise, has a way of upsetting any type of analysis and time frames based upon it or would you not agree? This is specifically why the Russians got the bomb as quickly as the did and very likely the same reason as to why the Chinese got theirs. The infiltration of the Manhattan Project was a major game breaker for that program. Now... as for the computing end of things, it's less likely to be a case of espionage and more a matter of reverse engineering and/or being sold the equipment prior to being embargoed.

Relevant:

There are many that speculate that the Sunway processor is based on the Alpha 21164, a RISC chip developed by Digital Equipment for its AlphaServer systems over two decades ago, but this has never been confirmed and often denied.

Source: https://www.nextplatform.com/2016/06/20/china-topples-united-states-top-supercomputer-user/

 

[DGurney]

China is laughing its ass off at the stupid, stupid U.S.

 

[DGurney]

China is laughing its ass off at the stupid, stupid U.S.

 

[10tacle]

Clearly they were wrong. They were just as wrong when it was commonly thought Russian and China would not have a bomb for 20 years. Ooops.

That is historically WRONG. The US government was racing against Russia to develop the first nuclear bomb during WWII. Further, as posted by Bill above, even as tightly controlled as the Manhattan Project was, Russia spies still compromised it and gathered intelligence that immediately went back to Stalin. We knew then that they'd have a bomb in short order. Some historians theorize that the US decided to use nukes on Japan as much for a show to Russia our capabilities as it was to beat Japan into submission.

And in cased you missed it, the Cold War, which revolved around nuclear power projection, started right after WWII and we split Germany with the Russians. Not 20 years later. Regarding China, we learned during the Korean War they were working with the Russians and buying (or being given) military hardware to assist Communist North Korea, so it was inevitable they get nuclear weapons too either by purchase or by technical help.

 

[bit_user]

Clearly they were wrong. They were just as wrong when it was commonly thought Russian and China would not have a bomb for 20 years. Ooops.

That is historically WRONG. The US government was racing against Russia to develop the first nuclear bomb during WWII. Further, as posted by Bill above, even as tightly controlled as the Manhattan Project was, Russia spies still compromised it and gathered intelligence that immediately went back to Stalin. We knew then that they'd have a bomb in short order. Some historians theorize that the US decided to use nukes on Japan as much for a show to Russia our capabilities as it was to beat Japan into submission.

I heard that, in the couple years following WW II, some of the nuclear scientists were openly disseminating details about nukes, under the belief that the world would be safer if all major powers had them.

And in cased you missed it, the Cold War, which revolved around nuclear power projection, started right after WWII and we split Germany with the Russians. Not 20 years later. Regarding China, we learned during the Korean War they were working with the Russians and buying (or being given) military hardware to assist Communist North Korea, so it was inevitable they get nuclear weapons too either by purchase or by technical help.

Heh, Korea was also split between the US and Russia, just before the war ended. The communist North actually started the Korean war, when they tried to dominate the South and take over the entire peninsula.

 

[10tacle]

I heard that, in the couple years following WW II, some of the nuclear scientists were openly disseminating details about nukes, under the belief that the world would be safer if all major powers had them.

The US government actually created a small down in BFE Nevada where the development and research was happening. Every phone call was monitored and every mail was read as an employee/resident there. So the only way those leaks got out were outbound off the premises, not inbound where everything was controlled. Anyway, more often than not, good intentions wind up having unintended consequences. But my guess is that it was more about being paid off than any social justice good deed. I only base that on history of espionage trials.

Heh, Korea was also split between the US and Russia, just before the war ended. The communist North actually started the Korean war, when they tried to dominate the South and take over the entire peninsula.

Yeah I know a little about that war. My great uncle (grandmother's brother) drove around in a tank for three days with the body of his dead friend after they got ambushed before being rescued. He was never the same according to my grandmother but I wouldn't have known since that happened long before my time.

 

[SkyBill40]

The US government actually created a small down in BFE Nevada where the development and research was happening. Every phone call was monitored and every mail was read as an employee/resident there. So the only way those leaks got out were outbound off the premises, not inbound where everything was controlled. Anyway, more often than not, good intentions wind up having unintended consequences. But my guess is that it was more about being paid off than any social justice good deed. I only base that on history of espionage trials.

The name of the town of which I believe you are speaking is Mercury, NV, which is within the boundaries of the Nevada Test Site (which I've visited). It's completely closed off to the public. Seeing that all testing outside of subcritical experiments are no longer allowed, the population has dwindled from over 10k in the 60's to approximately 500 today (though the exact number is not known).

 

[10tacle]

^^Yep that's it. When my father was based at Edwards AFB I remember him talking about it. Later I watched a documentary on it. It was truly like a closed off town where everything was controlled, and for good reason. Every employee candidate went through rigorous background checks as well as their extended family. Even friends and former classmates of said candidates were interviewed from what I was told. Obviously, even that wasn't good enough.

 

[bit_user]

I heard that, in the couple years following WW II, some of the nuclear scientists were openly disseminating details about nukes, under the belief that the world would be safer if all major powers had them.

The US government actually created a small down in BFE Nevada where the development and research was happening. Every phone call was monitored and every mail was read as an employee/resident there. So the only way those leaks got out were outbound off the premises, not inbound where everything was controlled. Anyway, more often than not, good intentions wind up having unintended consequences. But my guess is that it was more about being paid off than any social justice good deed. I only base that on history of espionage trials.

After the war, I think there were international scientific conferences or something, at which some of this material was publicly shared.

I wish I had a source to cite, but it's something I saw on a PBS documentary, many years ago. Probably not hard to find, if true.

 

[mdwfield]

Sad and amusing that the American people recognize that’s Red China excels at playing the long game and rightly lauds them for it whilst also going into full-blown hysteria over the prospect of short term pain when we attempt to do the same.

 

[10tacle]

Sad and amusing that the American people recognize that’s Red China excels at playing the long game and rightly lauds them for it whilst also going into full-blown hysteria over the prospect of short term pain when we attempt to do the same.

Yeah except we never dominated another nation. Ask Japan about that after WWII. Or Germany for that matter. Unlike China today who has publicly stated they will expand their powers by all means necessary. Emphasis on by all means necessary.

 

[bit_user]

Sad and amusing that the American people recognize that’s Red China excels at playing the long game and rightly lauds them for it whilst also going into full-blown hysteria over the prospect of short term pain when we attempt to do the same.

If you're talking about the widespread alarm over recent trade tariffs, the problem isn't so much the idea of being more protectionist, but how it's being attempted. A full-blown trade war will cause a lot of unnecessary pain, while failing to achieve the maximum benefits and doing long-term damage to trading relationships and brands or products associated with the USA.

In other words, it's not the mere fact of China playing the long game, but it's that they play it rather well.