Continual Flame - Permanent?

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news😛00f31psk4h3qbdpm7o9uisi0rtobi6mrj@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:18 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:34:11 +0000, Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
>>> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>>>
>>>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>>>least.
>>>
>>> No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.
>>
>>Nope. AD&D 2nd edition version used up the materials,
>
> That's not quite the "old" version, however. It would be the "last"
> version.
>
> The "old" version is 1E,

OD&D, actually.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> Alex Johnson wrote:
>
>>Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>>least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
>>>something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
>>>light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
>>>cities as well...
>>
>>I don't see how it completely avoids the need for any other light
>>source. Our group of 10-13 level characters and our group of 6-8 level
>>characters both have continual flame light sources, but we only use them
>>in absolute emergencies. Normally we have daylight or sunrods. Take a
>>look...continual flame only has a 10' radius, while most encounters
>>happen more than 10' away. If you start out 10' from that fomorian
>>giant, you're screwed! Even against orcs, you won't be too happy with
>>10' of vision (as they skewer you with javelins from 60' away and you
>>can't even tell where they are to fight back).
>
>
> Nit: continual flame has a radius of 20 feet, and
> provides shadowy illumination to 40 feet.
>
> -Bluto

Hmmm. So it does. Our stinkin' DM is cheating us again. Our continual
flames only illuminate 10'.

Alex

 

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Buy your own PHB 🙂

(or have the SRD handy)

 

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Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is
permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old
Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years
at
> least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any
other
> light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street
lights in
> cities as well...

There is of course a big problem with using them to illuminate cities.

A quite skilled professional in D&D3.x land makes about [(+3 ability
+5 ranks + 2 synergy + 2 other synergy + 2 masterwork tools + 3 skill
focus + 10.5 die roll)/2]GP per week, or about 715 GP/year.

The average is closer to 377 GP/year (assuming no slack time or
vacations). Unskilled is 30 or so GP if they are stupid enough to use
the rate in the book (which I assume to be for unreliable vagrants,
aka adventurers or drug adicts), or 260 GP/year if they notice that
craft is usable untrained, and assistants get paid half their check
result per week.

Multiply those numbers by about $100 and you have reasonable pay rates
for the current USA (within a factor of 2 or so, and the errors are
in different directions).

Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)

Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
or less....

Imagine that some cities actually have thieves' guilds (OK my
imagination won't streach that far, mafias and organized fences yes,
but the classic fantasy theives' guild is nonsensical).

How long do YOU think the city will stay illuminated?

Streetlight: 50 GP material component, 60 GP level 2 spell, 60 GP
having a really heavy rock draged into town to cast it on, so the
whole assemblage won't "mysteriously" get up and walk away on its
own some foggy night.

DougL

 

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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:22:36 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news😛00f31psk4h3qbdpm7o9uisi0rtobi6mrj@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:18 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
>> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:34:11 +0000, Matt Frisch wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
>>>> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>>>>
>>>>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>>>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>>>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>>>>least.
>>>>
>>>> No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.
>>>
>>>Nope. AD&D 2nd edition version used up the materials,
>>
>> That's not quite the "old" version, however. It would be the "last"
>> version.
>>
>> The "old" version is 1E,
>
>OD&D, actually.

That'd be the "Ancient" version...

I just checked my book, and Continual Light there also makes no mention of
consuming whatever it was cast on.

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 16 Mar 2005 09:25:53 -0800, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > The average is closer to 377 GP/year (assuming no slack time or
> > vacations). Unskilled is 30 or so GP if they are stupid enough to
use
> > the rate in the book (which I assume to be for unreliable vagrants,
> > aka adventurers or drug adicts), or 260 GP/year if they notice that
> > craft is usable untrained, and assistants get paid half their check
> > result per week.
>
> I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they can't
> take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9 in
> the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2
> MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone with
> decent Int.

Irrelevant, the rules for Craft say you can get paid half your
check result for assisting and that it can be used untrained.

You can houserule this, but doing so is a houserule.

> > Streetlight: 50 GP material component, 60 GP level 2 spell, 60 GP
> > having a really heavy rock draged into town to cast it on, so the
> > whole assemblage won't "mysteriously" get up and walk away on its
> > own some foggy night.
>
> Why do you imagine it will take three months' pay for a labourer to
> move a rock?

If "a labourer" can move the rock it will still walk away!

If your rock doesn't cost 60 GP to move you need a bigger rock!

To do any good the rock must be big enough that moving the rock a
noticable distance is more than half the price of the continual
flame spell, otherwise it still walks. If you count the rock as
adding to the value of the item rather than as dead weight, then
the cost of the rock must be over 110 GP!

DougL

 

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"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
>
> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
> or less....
>
You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that would
make it obvious where it came from?
Would there really be a market for stolen streetlights?

Geoff.

 

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"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
now.

>
>"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
>news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
>> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
>> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
>>
>> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
>> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
>> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
>> or less....
>>
>You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that would
>make it obvious where it came from?

You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
the issue?

Plausible deniability is everything... "No sir, that wasn't stolen.
I bought it from Guido's Lights and had Bruno, the mage on staff
enchant it. They'll back me up and here's my invoice."

>Would there really be a market for stolen streetlights?

Of course. There are markets for ANYTHING that can be stolen, and
since it was a relatively common item like a streetlight with a
relatively low GP cost to create new, the asking price for stolen
versions would probably be lower than creating a new light from
scratch.

The up front cost of each such item would be far cheaper in the long
run than continually purchasing new oil and/or candles and would cause
no work stoppages (or security risks if servants were allowed into
normally locked areas) for replacing burned down candles or refilling
lamps.

Bill
--
By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually
get to be boss and work twelve hours a day. - Robert Frost

 

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On 16 Mar 2005 09:25:53 -0800, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> The average is closer to 377 GP/year (assuming no slack time or
> vacations). Unskilled is 30 or so GP if they are stupid enough to use
> the rate in the book (which I assume to be for unreliable vagrants,
> aka adventurers or drug adicts), or 260 GP/year if they notice that
> craft is usable untrained, and assistants get paid half their check
> result per week.

I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they can't
take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9 in
the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2
MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone with
decent Int.

> Streetlight: 50 GP material component, 60 GP level 2 spell, 60 GP
> having a really heavy rock draged into town to cast it on, so the
> whole assemblage won't "mysteriously" get up and walk away on its
> own some foggy night.

Why do you imagine it will take three months' pay for a labourer to
move a rock?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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DougL wrote:
>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they can't
> > take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9 in
> > the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2
> > MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone with
> > decent Int.
>
> Irrelevant, the rules for Craft say you can get paid half your
> check result for assisting and that it can be used untrained.

Learn to read and interpret rules correctly before
posting such nonsense.

-Bluto

 

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Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> DougL wrote:
> >
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they
can't
> > > take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9
in
> > > the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus
+ 2
> > > MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone
with
> > > decent Int.
> >
> > Irrelevant, the rules for Craft say you can get paid half your
> > check result for assisting and that it can be used untrained.
>
> Learn to read and interpret rules correctly before
> posting such nonsense.

The rules are quite clear. The skill is usable untrained and
"You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about
half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."

There is no real ambiguity. You can roll a check with no ranks in
the skill, you earn about half your check result per week.

There is NOTHING that says you need to actually have the skill.

Usable untrained means that anyone can do it WITHOUT training!

DougL

 

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"Wildwood" <wildwood72@pipeline.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ioui31ps8foboumrspcfvse4u5v0u9fqcq@4ax.com...
> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
> now.
>
> >
> >"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
> >news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
> >> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
> >> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
> >>
> >> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
> >> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
> >> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
> >> or less....
> >>
> >You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that
would
> >make it obvious where it came from?
>
> You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
> identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
> the issue?
>
So they sell fake/stolen streetlights openly?

Geoff.

 

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"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
news:8up_d.1983$Le2.18946@nasal.pacific.net.au...
> "Wildwood" <wildwood72@pipeline.com.invalid> wrote:

>> You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
>> identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
>> the issue?
>>
> So they sell fake/stolen streetlights openly?

....until the "law" bans the making and selling of copies, of course.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
now.

>
>"Wildwood" <wildwood72@pipeline.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:ioui31ps8foboumrspcfvse4u5v0u9fqcq@4ax.com...
>> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
>> now.
>>
>> >
>> >"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
>> >news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
>> >> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
>> >> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
>> >>
>> >> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
>> >> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
>> >> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
>> >> or less....
>> >>
>> >You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that
>would
>> >make it obvious where it came from?
>>
>> You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
>> identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
>> the issue?
>>
>So they sell fake/stolen streetlights openly?
>

Probably, sold as "reproductions." Of course that also probably
depends on the local laws allowing questioning by magic and/or mind
reading, which would screw the whole thing up.

Bill
--
By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually
get to be boss and work twelve hours a day. - Robert Frost

 

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DougL wrote:
>
> Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> > DougL wrote:
> > >
> > > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they
> can't
> > > > take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9
> in
> > > > the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus
> + 2
> > > > MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone
> with
> > > > decent Int.
> > >
> > > Irrelevant, the rules for Craft say you can get paid half your
> > > check result for assisting and that it can be used untrained.
> >
> > Learn to read and interpret rules correctly before
> > posting such nonsense.
>
> The rules are quite clear.

Yes, they are. Too bad you still don't UNDERSTAND
them.

> The skill is usable untrained and
> "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about
> half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."

That's the *general* rule, yes. Now, keep reading:

"(Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of
1 silver piece per day.)"

That's the *specific* rule.

Thus, if you are an untrained assistant, you earn an
average of 1 silver piece per day, just like any other
untrained laborer (see DMG p.105).

> There is no real ambiguity. You can roll a check with no ranks in
> the skill, you earn about half your check result per week.

I agree there is no ambiguity. You can roll a check
with no ranks in the skill. Also, *if* you are trained
in the skill, you can earn about half your check result
per week; otherwise, 1 sp per day.

-Bluto

 

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"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> typed:

>You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that would
>make it obvious where it came from?

The thief could just take an axe and chop the glowing bit off the
distinctive bit, then bolt it onto something else and add a bit of
paint.

This raises the question of how much of the original item you need to
retain the magic. If you were to cast the spell on a house, would you
need to steal the whole house, the brick or just a fragment of the
brick?


--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

 

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Senator Blutarsky <monarchy@comcast.net> wrote:
>> The skill is usable untrained and
>> "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about
>> half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."
>
>That's the *general* rule, yes. Now, keep reading:
>
>"(Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of
>1 silver piece per day.)"
>
>That's the *specific* rule.
>
>Thus, if you are an untrained assistant, you earn an
>average of 1 silver piece per day, just like any other
>untrained laborer (see DMG p.105).

Well... can't this be interpreted two ways?

1. (subset of people) (earn an average of (amount))
2. ((subset of people) earn an average of) (amount)

In other words, it's not totally clear if it's the way you state
it, or more like "an average wage of all untrained assistants is
about 1 SP/day", which leaves the possibility of exceptionally-paid
untrained assistants.

In real life, there are certainly untrained assistants that make
more than minimum wage, generally due to either "connections", or
one or more high stats (or both).

Donald

 

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In article <roam315ivfs83vfulvibqf317l26d3elsb@4ax.com>,
Jim Davies <jim@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote:
>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> typed:
>
>>You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that would
>>make it obvious where it came from?
>
>The thief could just take an axe and chop the glowing bit off the
>distinctive bit, then bolt it onto something else and add a bit of
>paint.
>
>This raises the question of how much of the original item you need to
>retain the magic. If you were to cast the spell on a house, would you
>need to steal the whole house, the brick or just a fragment of the
>brick?

Casting the spell on a delecate glass focus then putting it in a tamper
resistant housing cemented into a wall could go a long way making it
hard to steal.
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.

 

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"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:d1g347$2rs5$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> Senator Blutarsky <monarchy@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> The skill is usable untrained and
> >> "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about
> >> half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."
> >
> >That's the *general* rule, yes. Now, keep reading:
> >
> >"(Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of
> >1 silver piece per day.)"
> >
> >That's the *specific* rule.
> >
> >Thus, if you are an untrained assistant, you earn an
> >average of 1 silver piece per day, just like any other
> >untrained laborer (see DMG p.105).
>
> Well... can't this be interpreted two ways?

No. At least not in a way that includes the untrained in the general rule.

> 1. (subset of people) (earn an average of (amount))
> 2. ((subset of people) earn an average of) (amount)
>
> In other words, it's not totally clear if it's the way you state
> it, or more like "an average wage of all untrained assistants is
> about 1 SP/day", which leaves the possibility of exceptionally-paid
> untrained assistants.

That's possible with either interpretation you give.

> In real life, there are certainly untrained assistants that make
> more than minimum wage, generally due to either "connections", or
> one or more high stats (or both).

So you might pay 2sp to a talented (high stat) guy you want to keep around
and 0.5 sp to the kid starting his apprenticeship. That says nothing about
their current productive value but still produces an average and
variability.