Did you say Vista Sucks?

[notherdude]

If this is true I think Opera has got a point. The stuff that microsoft intregates IE into Windows is kinda old news don't you think so? It's not the main issue.

Actually, I think for Opera it is the main issue. They want NO browsers pre-installed on windows and want to be on the Windows disk along with other browsers to show up as an option when you go to 'choose your browser'. This is old news in the US of course but the EU is trying to open up the same old question, big time!

As far as the 'open standards' are concerned I have not followed that closely but in general I do think MS should follow the standards set by the appropriate standard setting body. I'm not sure they should be forced to do so though. And the politics behind all of this is trecherous, on both sides. That is a tricky business.

The push to get Opera on the Windows install is what sparks my ire. The browser standards issue I am open to.

MS seems to think they own the consumer PC platform and in a way they do I suppose, since other platforms form only a tiny share put together. It's a tough call. I tend to think the market will sort these things itself and I seriously doubt the EU has any more clue than the US justice depatment did about trying to goveren the wild and ever changing world of technology.

I don't like MS being heavy handed. I don't but I like the EU meddling even less. It already netted them $700 mil in fines or so. Deep down I'd like to see MS just pull out of the EU and let them scramble. I don't think MS will do this though. Too much cance this would allow another OS, Linux likely, to get entrenched.

Can you imagine what the EU would do to Apple? They bundle everything and control their platform ten time more than MS.

 

[speedbird]

I don't see the harm in including a Browser with windows. It's a Microsoft OS ,so what is the problem with including Microsoft applications? Like someone has already mentioned, other browsers are just a simple click away. I don't understand how Microsoft is crushing other browsers, it's just utter nonsense.

We all know people who don't know anything about computing use IE as they never even heared of Opera/Firefox/Camino/Safari etc...

I personally prefer Firefox over Internet Explorer because it's a tad faster for me and possibly more secure.
Internet Explorer 7 is by no means a bad browser and from my experience it suffers less bugs than Firefox. I would rather use Internet explorer over Opera and certainly more so than the awful safari.

 

[SyPheR]

Nah, you guys are missing out on the point here. The main problem is that people who make websites have to make the website compatible with all browers >> IE/Firefox/Opera. Never heared of this problem? Open web standards. It's not only about IE being integrated into Windows. I agree about the integration part and me too see it as kinda harmless. That's not really monopoly. But the Open web standard used to build websites with are as they continuesly change them giving compatibily issues in other browsers except IE. If you think this is a good development think twice....it's not. It costs the browser developers damn much time to addept to this problem while Microsoft who has IE integrated does not have to worry about these development delays as they have none. That's the whole idea behind this matter. You can't make me believe that's a fair competition.

 

[parabola]

Great discussion. If Microsoft was the horrible beast people make it out to be, they would have written code in the OS to block installation of other browsers, hell, all other non MS software a long time ago, but they never have done this. It's the internet/PC savvy like you guys who know the difference, and seek out alternative non MS apps.

 

[hrm2001]

I usually don't get too involved in these kind of issues, but I will give my opinion on the matter.

1. If MS were to remove IE from the OS, we would have a slight problem. We would have NO browser! How would we get one installed onto the computer? This is assuming that MS does not provide any service to install one. Which I wouldn't blame them if they did that. The only way to get a browser would be to call the companies for Firefox and Opera and ask them to send you a CD. I don't believe you can even get them in a store. I don't think a lot of people would like that. And I think including Opera on the Windows Install CD is a ridiculous request.

2. I'm not that much into business, but I really don't understand how a company that gives away their product for free can say someone else is a monopoly? What are their damages?

3. Is Internet Explorer an essential part of the operating system? I would have to say Yes. The majority of people buying computers today is to get on the internet. Think of all these novice uses that use IE because they know of no other browser. Can you picture them sitting in front of a computer that does not contain a browser. I can see them all taking their computers back to the store because they can't get on the internet.

4. I really don't believe the problem is a monopoly. It is the lack of consumer awareness, or how ever else you want to put it. Should MS be singled out and punished for utilizing mass consumer ignorance?

5. About the web standards, I'm not sure if I understand properly. Is it that most web page developers are only concerned with making their pages look good in IE (who doesn't follow the standard) and the other Browser companies have to edit their software to conform to the web pages? I'm not sure. I do agree that MS should follow a standard that has been setup. But I do not know much about this subject.

 

[SyPheR]

5. About the web standards, I'm not sure if I understand properly. Is it that most web page developers are only concerned with making their pages look good in IE (who doesn't follow the standard) and the other Browser companies have to edit their software to conform to the web pages? I'm not sure. I do agree that MS should follow a standard that has been setup. But I do not know much about this subject.

If you want to know about web standards....read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_standards

The complaint calls on Microsoft to adhere to its own public pronouncements to support these standards, instead of stifling them with its notorious “Embrace, Extend and Extinguish” strategy. Microsoft’s unilateral control over standards in some markets creates a de facto standard that is more costly to support, harder to maintain, and technologically inferior and that can even expose users to security risks.

And this while Opera has long held the position of innovator in the Web browser market, having introduced and pioneered features like tabbed browsing, Speed Dial, integrated search bar, mouse gestures. At the end we are the onces that pay the price.

I think the real European inventor of this deserves credits and not to be put in the background by Microsoft while Microsoft copy's (just like they've copied/stole most of Vista's interface layout from MAC OSX 10) all of those inventions into their own new browsers while making it difficult for the competition by controlling the webstandards in their own little way. I think Microsoft is about to pay the price again and again we will see lots of people who don't understand anything about webstandards say that Europe is bad etc while in fact it's a good thing that we try to solve this God blesh America Microsoft problem. There are rulez too. Even their God knows it

 

[notherdude]

There are two issues here. Standards and, for lack of knowing the proper term, browser bundling. Opera wants you to have a choice of browsers, likely by having theirs and others, included on the Windows install or else by having no browsers at all on the install.

I'm flexible on standards but not on the bundling. I think this happened a ways back in the EU about WMP. MS was forced to release a version, N I think they called it, that had not media player at all. The same editions of XP, identical, except N had no WMP. I'd like to know what if any effect this had on popularizing other media players.

Perhaps MS should just release a ver of windows in the EU with no browser. Of course there is a catch 22 there.

MS has the perfect right to put there own browser on there, imo. Other browsers are just A CLICK AWAY. NO CHARGE. The success of FF proves it can be done. Why hasn't Opera been able to achieve the same penetration as FF? They want the EU to do all the work for them. Screw em, I say

 

[SyPheR]

There are two issues here. Standards and, for lack of knowing the proper term, browser bundling. Opera wants you to have a choice of browsers, likely by having theirs and others, included on the Windows install or else by having no browsers at all on the install.

I'm flexible on standards but not on the bundling.

Yes, indeed there are two issues here but you are only using the issue bundeling to bash on EU and Opera while in fact the most important issue here is something that not only Opera agrees with but also Firefox and other browsermakers.
It's just that Opera makes the call.
Have you ever noticed what is happening with Firefox 3 for example? It totally sucks in security. It's got bugs etc.
It's just plain simple what Microsoft is doing.....why don't you talk about that instead of the stupid integration part that Microsoft has been blamed for over many years.
It's totally true what you say about that. I think it's complete noncence too. But dont give Opera and EU all the blame cause this time the web standard issue is more important.
I would like you to answer this question please.

Do you think it's fair that when Web Standards being edited in a private way so the competition has problems keeping up? Look at the proud American product Firefox 3 that now totally sucks and other browsers like Safari that have issues because of this etc. Don't you think it's time that someone stood up against this? PLease don't start about bundeling again that we allready know of....we talk web site development standards here that is the most important factor. We allready know the integration part sucks and that it's useless too blame Microsoft for doing that.

 

[inspecter71]

Windows Vista is by far the best windows, I just wanna give it to the guys a microsoft for doing such a fine job with this product and i have nothing but good things to say about vista.Microsoft keep up the great job you been doing thanks.


William,

 

[notherdude]

Yes, indeed there are two issues here but you are only using the issue bundeling to bash on EU and Opera while in fact the most important issue here is something that not only Opera agrees with but also Firefox and other browsermakers.
It's just that Opera makes the call.
Have you ever noticed what is happening with Firefox 3 for example? It totally sucks in security. It's got bugs etc.
It's just plain simple what Microsoft is doing.....why don't you talk about that instead of the stupid integration part that Microsoft has been blamed for over many years.
It's totally true what you say about that. I think it's complete noncence too. But dont give Opera and EU all the blame cause this time the web standard issue is more important.
I would like you to answer this question please.

Do you think it's fair that when Web Standards being edited in a private way so the competition has problems keeping up? Look at the proud American product Firefox 3 that now totally sucks and other browsers like Safari that have issues because of this etc. Don't you think it's time that someone stood up against this? PLease don't start about bundeling again that we allready know of....we talk web site development standards here that is the most important factor. We allready know the integration part sucks and that it's useless too blame Microsoft for doing that.

I made a big deal about bundling because, as I read the story when it came out, it seemed to me that that was the big issue. Anyway, I was a little foggy on that but I found the Opera itself has published it's complaint on it's website:

The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards. Opera has requested the Commission to take the necessary actions to compel Microsoft to give consumers a real choice and to support open Web standards in Internet Explorer.

Opera requests the Commission to implement two remedies to Microsoft’s abusive actions. First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop. Second, it asks the European Commission to require Microsoft to follow fundamental and open Web standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities. The complaint calls on Microsoft to adhere to its own public pronouncements to support these standards, instead of stifling them with its notorious "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish" strategy. Microsoft's unilateral control over standards in some markets creates a de facto standard that is more costly to support, harder to maintain, and technologically inferior and that can even expose users to security risks.

"Our complaint is necessary to get Microsoft to amend its practices," said Jason Hoida, Deputy General Counsel, Opera."The European Court of First Instance confirmed in September that Microsoft has illegally tied Windows Media Player to Windows. We are simply asking the Commission to apply these same, clear principles to the Internet Explorer tie, a tie that has even more profound effects on consumers and innovation. We are confident that the Commission understands the significance of the Internet Explorer tie and will take the necessary actions to restore competition and consumer choice in the browser market."

So, it's two prong but it sounds to me that the bundling issue is primary in the complaint.
Anyway, you and I seem to agree on the bundling. About the standards: what is unclear to me is this -

1. is MS changing the OS, frequently, with an aim to disrupt the competition, to break browsers other than it's own? Doesn't sound like it. The browsers still start up and run and render the vast amount pages correctly, so it's more subtle than this

2. Is MS changing IE as it pleases, on the fly as it were, thus forcing web page creators to change their pages and in the process break those pages on other browsers?

3. Is MS simply sticking to it's own standards which are contrary to what the non-MS consensus believes should be standard? In which case web creators will of course make their pages compliant with the dominant browser, IE, and the other browsers can either do it the MS way or the highway? Not a nice choice to have to make but they can do it, if they are willing to make those concessions. If this is the case I see no legal issue myself.

It sounded to me like #3 was the case "and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards", and "Microsoft's unilateral control over standards in some markets creates a de facto standard that is more costly to support, harder to maintain, and technologically inferior and that can even expose users to security risks."

but I am happy to admit that I have not looked into the standards thing deeply. If FF is having issues exactly how is MS responsible?

So, if you know the details please fill me in and make the case.

 

[SyPheR]

Excactly...we can't know everything orelse the case would allready be clear if it was that simple.

You are right about MS simple sticking to it's own standards and offcourse they come with updates. If this happens Firefox will still start up newly designed pages but once webpages are designed with the new standards Firefox needs to be adjusted again to make the code work. This takes time plus it causes security problems and leaks that nobody want. It's that simple. It's not good.
Microsoft should pass on the updates they do or at least communicate with other webbrowser developers before doing so.

It's the same like....Crytek is developing Crysis and suddenly Vista gets changed and Crysis shows bugs cause it was written to function with a certain code that is now updated. You see that happen? I won't. But in browserland is does happen when loading webpages and that pisses Opera etc off. But anyways...we should just wait and see what happens. There first comes a whole investigation. Nobody gets the blame YET.

 

[notherdude]

Excactly...we can't know everything orelse the case would allready be clear if it was that simple.

You are right about MS simple sticking to it's own standards and offcourse they come with updates. If this happens Firefox will still start up newly designed pages but once webpages are designed with the new standards Firefox needs to be adjusted again to make the code work. This takes time plus it causes security problems and leaks that nobody want. It's that simple. It's not good.
Microsoft should pass on the updates they do or at least communicate with other webbrowser developers before doing so.

It's the same like....Crytek is developing Crysis and suddenly Vista gets changed and Crysis shows bugs cause it was written to function with a certain code that is now updated. You see that happen? I won't. But in browserland is does happen when loading webpages and that pisses Opera etc off. But anyways...we should just wait and see what happens. There first comes a whole investigation. Nobody gets the blame YET.

As I see it, it all depends on the details. If MS is merely writing IE a certain way and other browser comapanies and the standards groups don't like that way but feel they are being forced to comply, else their browsers don't work on any and all pages, then I see a potential sort of moral issue but not a legal one.

I do feel a real sense of unfair play if the other browsers are not getting advance warning of changes to the OS itself, which would injure their products. This much I would feel somewhat comfortable with legal intervention - somehow I think there is a lot more going on here than just that though.

I'm going to read up on this more. I simply don't fully understand the standards issue.

 

[hrm2001]

Some links on the subject



http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22673684/

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=588

http://www.sdtimes.com/article/story-20080115-12.html

 

[StormFx]

In regards to Vista, it's a new operating system. There will never be software or an operating system released that doesn't initially have some bugs and/or compatibility issues. Period.

In regards to the whole MS/EU suit thing. Who cares? MS is a business. The idea of a business is to make money. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Period. The whole issue of integrating and this idea that MS is changing stuff to "hinder the competition" is nothing but socialist political rhetoric.

The main problem is that people who make websites have to make the website compatible with all browers >> IE/Firefox/Opera. Never heared of this problem? Open web standards.

As a web developer, I, too, find it frustrating to have to cater to multiple compatibility levels. But the reality is that the web standards are there as a basis. Would it be nice is MS adhered to them? Yes. Should they have to? No.

Do you think it's fair that when Web Standards being edited in a private way so the competition has problems keeping up?

You're saying MS is controlling the web standards now? Sorry, friend, but I think your tin foil hat is defective.

Look at the proud American product Firefox 3 that now totally sucks and other browsers like Safari that have issues because of this etc.

Just for the record, Firefox 3 is in beta stage. If a browser can't keep up with the current technologies, it's their own problem.

P.S. As hrm pointed out above, check his links. IE8 passes the "Acid 2" test.

 

[Cirga]

I would expect from people that have been using computers for so long (if you can remember using dos you re at least 30) and people who have such superior tecnical knowledge to act different than 12 year olds. Your "logic" is based on the asumption: I once fell from a 20 foot lader and landed without a scratch so if you fell from the same lader and got hurt, you re just a pussy. You ceep forgeting that people paid for an os that in many cases seems to have STABILITY isues! I couldnt disagree more with people critisizing vista speed. Just upgrade your hardware! Now in my personal experience, I ve allways upgaded my pc before installing a new os and in the case of win95, win98 and winXP i didnt have a single issue. WinME on the other hand was a nightmare. Vista is not that bad, but it will not open Firefox, it sometime stalls and in general its not fan to operate. Ive been patient since April cause i realy like its potential as an os but am sorry to say that for me, for the past 9 months Vista is crap

I had that same problem with Firefox just not opening sometimes. The process would be there, but the app would never actually load. It turned out to be caused by the JohnQ TV plugin that I installed on Firefox a while back. Once I removed JohnQ TV .. firefox began working perfectly again. That is of course if you have any plugins installed within firefox.