Discussion: Polaris, AMD's 4th Gen GCN Architecture

[jimmysmitty]

I can say fairly confidently that there were not game specific driver updates like we have today 15, 10, even 5 years ago. There were driver updates to fix game specific issues, but unless it was a major title and it was totally broken, you usually had to wait for their update to come later on. Nowadays its every time a new AAA title comes out we get updates.

http://www.techspot.com/community/topics/new-ati-catalyst-02-3-driver.2575/

They have always had game specific driver optimizations. As I said I would say since APIs. Before that maybe not but it is truly hard to say.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

How come Intel doesn't have those type of driver updates for their iGPU? Or do they and that I've just never noticed? :lol:

 

[Rogue Leader]

I can say fairly confidently that there were not game specific driver updates like we have today 15, 10, even 5 years ago. There were driver updates to fix game specific issues, but unless it was a major title and it was totally broken, you usually had to wait for their update to come later on. Nowadays its every time a new AAA title comes out we get updates.

http://www.techspot.com/community/topics/new-ati-catalyst-02-3-driver.2575/

They have always had game specific driver optimizations. As I said I would say since APIs. Before that maybe not but it is truly hard to say.

I agree, I was just saying that we didn't have them nearly weekly and for every release like now. Nowadays we get driver releases the day of the game release. I do not remember that ever happening years ago.

 

[renz496]

This is just my pure opinion i think this game specific optimization happen because of competitive reason. And probably this also lead to nvidia have better driver and ATI havr bad driver thingy in the past. Plus once game developer done with their game that's the end of it. Imagine the game have issues on new hardware. Will developer going to revisit their old game and make patch to optimized their old game on newer hardware? that is if they still "exist".

And with DX12 stuff.....just because few developer said that they want low level API on pc it doesn't mean all of them asking for it. To me DX12 solve on problem in one area only to create another in other area.

@TJ hooker.

I think there is lots of developer talking about this stuff. Call it what ever you want but amd and nvidia will try to look for opputunity on where they can increase their performance. As for running thinhs out of API spec that actually quiye popular with nvidia and opengl. This is one reason why nvidia have superior performance in opengl compared to amd. Ex Valve developer once talk about this thinng. But it's not like AMD not try to do the same. Even if they want to they probably can't because the guys that writing opengl stuff for amd has been long gone from the company and they afraid unnecessary tweaking might end make it worse for them. Plus most pc games was directx anyway. Hence they did not push heavily on opengl.

 

[jimmysmitty]

They do:

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/26078/Intel-Graphics-Driver-for-Windows-10-and-Windows-7-8-1-15-40-?product=80939

Look at the release notes. They just don't do as many since most people do not buy an Intel CPU with an iGPU to game.

 

[Math Geek]

you never noticed cause you have probably never used the igp. my old atom netbook was not given win 10 igp drivers and intel refuses to make them. i'm stuck with generic driver until i can figure out how to get win 7/8 drivers working on it. much harder than it used to be to get old drivers going.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

But it's not this way with CPUs. I'm assuming that is because they are all the X86 architecture? But they still have architectural differences, so why is it that GPUs would have problems with this stuff? Don't they execute all execute the same instructions, just work with those instructions in different ways like different CPUs do?

 

[jimmysmitty]

I can say fairly confidently that there were not game specific driver updates like we have today 15, 10, even 5 years ago. There were driver updates to fix game specific issues, but unless it was a major title and it was totally broken, you usually had to wait for their update to come later on. Nowadays its every time a new AAA title comes out we get updates.

http://www.techspot.com/community/topics/new-ati-catalyst-02-3-driver.2575/

They have always had game specific driver optimizations. As I said I would say since APIs. Before that maybe not but it is truly hard to say.

I agree, I was just saying that we didn't have them nearly weekly and for every release like now. Nowadays we get driver releases the day of the game release. I do not remember that ever happening years ago.

That is true. We did not have pre-release game driver. That is more recent but probably because of the poor optimizations that most games have at launch and the complexity of games these days. Back in 2002 a game could fit on a 700MB CD. Now you need multiple DVDs and even multiple single layer Blu-Rays to fit some games. The amount of code has probably gone up by 100x meaning that both nVidia and AMD need to get their driver ready to handle it.

It will probably get worse but I hope AMDs RTG can keep up with nVidia. They can't be lazy on drivers like they were for many years, they need to kick it up a notch and make sure to hit all the big game releases.

@Math Geek, I know this might seem crazy but have you tried Windows 10 on it? I have seen a lot more success with 10 on getting drivers for products not on 7/8.

 

[Rogue Leader]

AMD used to include CPU drivers with their processors (in fact I think my Phenom even came with a CPU driver). If it ever was updated it was back in 2012 maybe. Because the technology and instruction sets in every CPU is standardized thats probably why they don't do optimization drivers for the CPU, since that architecture doesn't really change.

 

[Rogue Leader]

That is true. We did not have pre-release game driver. That is more recent but probably because of the poor optimizations that most games have at launch and the complexity of games these days. Back in 2002 a game could fit on a 700MB CD. Now you need multiple DVDs and even multiple single layer Blu-Rays to fit some games. The amount of code has probably gone up by 100x meaning that both nVidia and AMD need to get their driver ready to handle it.

It will probably get worse but I hope AMDs RTG can keep up with nVidia. They can't be lazy on drivers like they were for many years, they need to kick it up a notch and make sure to hit all the big game releases.

Right! Back in the day when you used to need to troll the support forums for your games looking for game updates, not get them automatically. Now they dump games out and patch it later, automatically, and expect AMD/Nvidia/Intel to fix the GPU support. Its funny even early PS3 games (2006-2009) would only get 1 or 2 updates and usually fairly small. Later games you had to download gigs of patches for every game, even day 1, it really shows the shift in the mentality and industry.

AMD seems to be pretty good these days, they have been releasing drivers prior to or on game release days, even the one for Forza which was only a beta.

 

[Math Geek]

yah it's running win 10 home. and no igp driver out for that cpu. intel has stated officially it won't make one. i'm working on getting win 7/8 driver working on it. not as easy as the old change version number in .ini file, that worked so well for so long.

i'm still learning but win 10 has changed so much it is almost starting over on learning windows again. even group policy editor is dumbed down and made almost useless other than a few key settings. so many tweaks and secrets i know about the other versions of windows no longer work. that and every time it updates it puts itself back to default. so i have to brush up on my ability to write scripts to automate the changes i have made to put back each time windows resets them.

 

[renz496]

Probably because both amd and intel cpu is based on x86?

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Probably because both amd and intel cpu is based on x86?

They are the same architecture and not at the same time 😛

 

[-Fran-]

I just hope we don't get to the point where Intel is releasing CPU drivers for games 😱 - lol, that'll never happen though.

That is a nasty can of worms, lol.

Does "compilers" ring a bell? 😛

Cheers!

 

[Rogue Leader]

They now show up on Newegg.... as out of stock... AND if you click on them it gives you an error page

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=AMD+RX+480&N=-1&isNodeId=1

 

[turkey3_scratch]

They now show up on Newegg.... as out of stock... AND if you click on them it gives you an error page

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=AMD+RX+480&N=-1&isNodeId=1

So Sapphire and all them are selling reference cards, too? Sounds like Nvidia's partners.

 

[Rogue Leader]

They now show up on Newegg.... as out of stock... AND if you click on them it gives you an error page

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=AMD+RX+480&N=-1&isNodeId=1

So Sapphire and all them are selling reference cards, too? Sounds like Nvidia's partners.

They always did, AMD (Ati) stopped making their own reference cards many years ago.

 

[-Fran-]

They now show up on Newegg.... as out of stock... AND if you click on them it gives you an error page

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=AMD+RX+480&N=-1&isNodeId=1

So Sapphire and all them are selling reference cards, too? Sounds like Nvidia's partners.

They always did, AMD (Ati) stopped making their own reference cards many years ago.

I still have my X1800XT BBA 😀

Cheers!

 

[littleleo]

I'm awaiting some form of a GPU upgrade. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I own a 390, Nvidia's cards are too high right now, and AMD's options will probably not be powerful enough to merit an upgrade. I can rule out getting the 1070 or 1080 right now, too expensive. A single RX 480 won't be much better than an R9 390. I could get two for $400, but if I can already get a second 390 instead for $250, it's something i need to think about. I don't want multi-GPU issues, so I might be holding off until 1070 and 1080 prices drop.

Well the RX 480 is supposed to be $200 and run faster than any AMD except the Fury. Some sites suggest they could be as fast as the 1070.... Well I think there is some hype involved with that claim. But it doesn't hurt to wait and see in this case. You have had good luck in the past with AMD I'd wait and see how the 480 pans out.

 

[littleleo]

They now show up on Newegg.... as out of stock... AND if you click on them it gives you an error page

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=AMD+RX+480&N=-1&isNodeId=1

So Sapphire and all them are selling reference cards, too? Sounds like Nvidia's partners.

They always did, AMD (Ati) stopped making their own reference cards many years ago.

I still have my X1800XT BBA 😀

Cheers!

Yes AMD spun its factory off to follow the Nvidia model, that business became Sapphire.

X1800XT, No wonder is says your "Ancient", lol!

 

[Math Geek]

as noted earlier today, amd claims they will be well stocked for launch. may not get a pre-order in but hopefully have a better chance of getting one near launch day. i'm sticking by what has already been said. gonna sit it out and wait for everything to die down. custom cards to be available and reviewed and prices to stabilize before making any choices.

basically you got the 460 = 960, 470 = 970 and 480 = 980. at least basically around those levels from everything i have seen. the "beast mode" superclocked 480's are reported to be very close to 1070 performance. these cards will be closer to $300 of more though since they will be top end custom cards. still $300 to get close to $450 card is still a good deal.

 

[Kewlx25]

Yes gpu maker "cheat" with their drivers but do you really hope game developer should shoulder the work instead? Look at dx12 title that available today. Nvidia hardware did not benefit the same way amd hardware did in AoS because nvidia hardware are not the same as amd. They probably can solve the issue if they make another tweak or build specifically for nvidia hardware but they already said that they will not going to do that because doing so will take too much time. Then look at hitman. A game touted by amd will show us the best case of async compute usage. Dx12 have far more stability issue and even radeon take performance in dx12 for that game. And the new war hammer. GCN 1.0 based card and kepler don't even run in DX12 version of the game.

Yes, game makers should shoulder the work of making games instead of hardware manufactures. Maybe you'll claim that Intel should simplify computer programming and just fix all of the issues for everyone else. Indie games have a hard time competing because they can't make games run fast because the APIs are broken. AAA games can get help from AMD and Nvidia, but not all of the other games.

AoS is not an example of how a game engine is better for one GPU or another, but an example of how Nvidia didn't do as good of a design as they should have. Async shaders are a great idea and Nvidia only emulates them by doing extremely expensive context switching.

Oversimplifying the problem doesn't help anyone.

 

[Rogue Leader]

They now show up on Newegg.... as out of stock... AND if you click on them it gives you an error page

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=AMD+RX+480&N=-1&isNodeId=1

So Sapphire and all them are selling reference cards, too? Sounds like Nvidia's partners.

They always did, AMD (Ati) stopped making their own reference cards many years ago.

I still have my X1800XT BBA 😀

Cheers!

Yes AMD spun its factory off to follow the Nvidia model, that business became Sapphire.

X1800XT, No wonder is says your "Ancient", lol!

You think thats old I have a Radeon X850 Pro in my basement waiting for me to rebuild the PC it was attached to for an arcade game rig.

 

[Math Geek]

yah sure seems like this talk is going as far nowhere are the sli/xfire one that lasted for a week. perhaps we can go back to amd rumors and card specs 😀

that's what the thread is for anyway!!

 

[renz496]

AAA games can get help from AMD and Nvidia, but not all of the other games.

this is devrel issue. but usually for nvidia they still pay attention to non triple A games because they have resource for it.

AoS is not an example of how a game engine is better for one GPU or another, but an example of how Nvidia didn't do as good of a design as they should have.

you should know that AMD is the only gpu maker on earth that pushing for ACE like hardware. they have been pushing hard for it since they got GCN and with DX12 they finally able to access that idle hardware in their gpu. and async compute did not give AMD hardware the positive result all the time. just look at hitman. even radeon hardware got performance hit with DX12. and this is a game that AMD touted as one of the best show case for async compute usage. and ultimately you mention that indie dev cannot compete because of broken API. if anything i see it most indie dev will not want to deal with low level API on pc.