DRM and Piracy: The Vicious Circle

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But Steam and Stardock are great examples of how additional DRM can be better for both the game companies and the gamers. CD checks and Keys while not too bad can still be a pain and have limitations. Plus they don't stop a lot of piracy. Steam stops more piracy and eliminates CD checks and Keys. It has some disadvantages, but I would choose Steam over retail games in most cases regardless of it's effect on piracy. It's just better in my opinion, while also being a better platform for publishers. I'm not sure why somebody would argue with that unless they just had a blind hatred of the letters D, R and M.
 
Well there are some legitimate criticisms of Steam. First they occasionally have glitchy problems. Second it sucks big time if you are on dialup and is entirely unusable if you have no internet connection at all. Third, they allow, without warning the consumer, for publishers to incorporate 4th party DRM on top of steam.

All in all, for the majority of gamers, Steam is still pretty good, but there are a few for whom steam is not feasible.
 
i know nothing is 100% effective but look at it this way

if the law enforcement of the state you live in has the effectiveness of drm, then the government will have then disbanded for not meeting national standards

people oppose drm because it is a major inconvenience and has a extremely low success rate

the success rate is just too low to justify the drm practices
 
Razor... yes it does justify the practice in the case of the DRM methods that we are supporting.

Impulse, MMOs, Consoles, Steam, and basic CD checks. These methods are not terribly inconveniencing to consumers and they have a notable effect on piracy.

Also your analogy, as usual, is stupid. If a district had that high of a crime rate and that low of an arrest rate the state would declare martial law and lock down everyone which is obviously not what you are suggesting so quit trying to draw a correlation to law. It doesn't work.
 
Razor,
I give up trying to discuss any topic with you. Not because we disagree, but because your only response every seems to be to go off on some ridiculous tangent or nonsensical analogy. I'm sure you don't realize it but half the time you do so you actually end up disproving your own point. The more I read your post in this thread the more certain I am that you have only have a very vague idea of what DRM actually is. I would recommend doing some real research on the matter such that even if you still are against it you will at least be able to debate the issue in a reasonable fashion. There are real reasons to be against it which go well beyond something as trivial as not being able to activate a game more than 3 times. But I’m not going to tell what they are.
 
aww isn't it great so see everyone agreeing so well :)

and don't you find analogies fun :)

there also useful, there used to give examples of similar situations in order to convey your ideas more clearly

yay for analogies :)

cute puppies all around :)
cute2bf1.jpg



ps tomorrow is caturday so be sure to celebrate how cute cats are


dogs and cats hate DRM also

 
Regrettably, I was away from my computer for some time; but I just thought i'd add the following -



Getting upset at people who provide the demand for pirated games is 100% certifiably /pointless/

If you want to get upset at anyone, get upset at those distributing the games - as that is the very definition of piracy; "making available of content"


If you start to think of digital media piracy in a relation to drug addiction, it becomes rather easy to see why 1: people pirate games and 2: why pirates provide the games to be downloaded.

The people pirating games are the drug addicts, they are looking for their next "gaming fix" and they will do anything to get it - including steal. In their minds its okay for them to steal because they /need/ that gaming rush in order to get through their day/week/month/year.

The people providing pirated games are alike to drug pushers; they provide a service to acquire this digital media under the pretense typically pertaining to some form of sponsorship - whether it be through advertising, identity theft schemes, or terminal access control schemes (trojan horses); in pretty much every case, those providing the software initially do it for their own benefit in some way.

Then of course there are the lower end drug reseller types; those who just take someone elses product and dole it out to people they know in exchange for money (or other illegal software) - ultimately, these people do a great degree of local piracy and they continue to sustain the demand for more pirated content.

That all having been said, i'm not justifying or encouraging the piracy of games - but I am quite simply stating that unless you cut the problem off at the very beginning; those making the software available in the first place; then there is absolutely no point in complaining or doing much of anything - because this phenomenon simply cannot be stopped.

I buy my PC games because I like gaming on the PC because of the increased image quality - I know that if I stop buying PC games, that inevitably others will as well until the point comes that more and more people aren't buying - at which point the platform will cease to be viable.
 
I liked the quote:
"It's not as if one night everything will be as it was in 1999"

It's like chasing ghosts, I have a box somewhere of C-64 games that were cracked pre-1985. 1999 wasn't any more secure than today. Before torrents were the ftp sites constantly getting flooded with releases in hidden and odd directories of their upload areas, or in any unsecured directory.

Torrents may make it easier for the less savvy, but I don't know many of those more casual types that would download several gigabytes at a time anyway. The last time I really searched for a distribution was the old AD&D gold box games when my CD became unusable and the publisher couldn't replace it. I guess that was a while ago, but I still feel that was justified, though today I don't know that I have any of them and haven't seen the code wheels in a while.
 
basically for the whole drm debate,

base line answer

drm wouldn't have such a uproar and be under so much debate if what i said previously was not true

drm fails because the innocent people suffer more than the pirates because the drm only effects them
 
ovaltine,
You’re not completely wrong but trying to analogize this topic almost always proves futile. The key difference between the drug trade and piracy is with whom the profit lays. As with any industry (legal or otherwise) profit is what drives the market. With drugs it is very simple to see which party actually profits - the suppliers. The users only get a short high which is offset by both the problems caused by their use and the loss of money they paid for the drugs. Even if you were to assume drug use causes no problems the user still theoretically just breaks even; The cost of the drugs = the high.
With piracy however it seems to me that the user is the one making most of the profit, or at the very least they are sharing in it. While certainly many pirated games are actually sold, and for a profit to the seller, the user always comes out not having paid as much as they would had they bought a legit copy. Aside from some rare situations (ie actually getting caught with pirated games and punished) what is the user personally losing in the transaction? We can get a little more abstract and say “they are hurting the industry, thus they are costing themselves” but that’s about it. Certainly we can see the profit they gain from a pirated game – they saved themselves X number of dollars not having to buy it, not to mention the enjoyment of the game itself.
Now I’m not ignorant enough to think telling people to stop pirating will work any better than telling people to stop using drugs. But unlike the drug trade, which I agree with you is nearly impossible to fight at the user level you can do so with piracy with greater success. Unlike a drug user pirates are actually driven by a practical motive – profit. Make that less practical and you can actually thwart a good amount of piracy.
 
If you don't like the analogy then just take it for face value:


People pirate games because they have addictions to video gaming, this is hardly uncommon - they become so detached from reality that they feel its okay to steal games, music, and movies; because to them satisfying their entertainment urges is more important than any sort of morality - in fact, these people are very much slaves to mass media entertainment.

There, no analogy - face value; and its really very much truthful thought. People use media entertainment generally speaking to avoid the real world, as its much more fun to step into fantasy for a lot of people because it lets them forget about responsibilities. I don't believe that every gamer is a gaming addict - but I do //believe// (opinion) people who steal entertainment in any form quite obviously do have an addiction problem.
 
Generally for something to qualify as an addiction, it needs to be something that causes problems and continues to be preferred. WoW and MMO's are obvious examples, I don't know of anyone who's lost a job or marriage over games they downloaded though like I've known to happen to players of those types of games.

The risk/reward in software piracy, especially in games, is pretty low. I doubt many really consider there being any risk as prosecution's been primarily against those reselling counterfeit copies or those who repackage and distribute the games.
 
The only genre that has really not had much problems with pirating is the MMO community. You buy the game, you register and get a user name, you cannot play unless you log in. A similar approach could be used for any game, not just online games.
The internet is becoming available almost anywhere including public transportation. Airliners will soon be offering internet during flights as well, so not having the internet available at all times will not be a problem.
 
most public locations that offer internet will charge a high price for it

while games like WOW have a smaller percentage of pirates, it has a larger number of pirates who have cracked versions of the game.

 
razor,

what do you mean crack versions of game? crack the WoW client so 40 people join their small private server without any update?

jack,
while all game can go with MMO alike monthly charge. but then no body will ever buy it. most online game rental only cost 14/mon and its not lock to single title. unless game dev outlaw rental otherwise is wishful thinking.

i dont know how.. or where tom find this guy to write the column. but i dont think he knowledgeable enuff to write this article.
"I'm not terribly concerned about digital rights (or "restrictions," depending on who you ask) management"

did he know the history of DRM?? aka sony DRM and root kit is? i know sony say drop the root kit, but do you ever trust any DRM ever again? and not worry restrictions... good lord, we talking tomshardware right?? the site that most reader upgrade their computer all the time..

even CNN could done better then this..
 


Its hardly uncommon for players to become obsessed and addicted with games from any genre - the qualifier for what makes an "addictive" game formula are personal advancement models.

RTS games tend to use some sort of ladder system where positions are earned from winning a quantity of matches against similarly ladder leveled players.

Some modern FPS games such as CoD4 use a level/perk system.

Race Driver: Grid uses a ranking system that rewards you whether you're a good driver or not.

I could go on, but there is no need to; you can argue with me all you want but the proof is in the pudding - most people would rather drown themselves in virtual entertainment than deal with their real lives, and video games are one of these virtual entertainments.

Look, I game just like anyone else but i'm aware that many of these games include an addictive formula which is why gaming is a secondary objective in my life - developers are designing these games to have an addictive component to them, and its important that people be aware of that.

How does this effect piracy? I already stated; people don't really care how they get their gaming rush, they just want it - and because of their detachments from reality, spineless and anonymous theft is okee dokee to them.
 


i think tom find this guy and he pretty good at writing columns.. he knowledgeable enough to give opinion, and good enough for reader to read. in fact look how much discussion one article caused. i'd say that is about much as ask for
 
drm is made to be in the companies best interest and not the users

even though it doesn't stop piracy, they feel it is worth it if it can just stop even 1 person from pirating their game

drm does nothing to improve the gaming experience for the user who gets the game legit

it just adds more work for that player to do to get their game up and running
 
People pirate games because they have addictions to video gaming, this is hardly uncommon - they become so detached from reality that they feel its okay to steal games, music, and movies;
Click to expand...
What evidence is there to suggest that piracy is mostly the product of addiction? Your theory seems to be that the only reason to steal anything is addiction. If somebody steals a car are they addicted to cars?
Regardless of that question my argument is that you say pirates do so because they are "detached from reality", whereas I think piracy is considered very normal and is hardly considered a deviat activity. Unlike drug use and commen theft which are severly looked down upon piracy of games, movies and especially music is barely frowned upon. If you were to take a survey of average people ranking where they see piracy as a crime my guess would be that it would fall somewhere around the range of speeding rather than other forms of theft. I've even known pastors who've downloaded a song or two from a P2P for church services without giving it a second thought. The point being it hardly takes an abnormal personality to think downloading digital content is ok.
 
Anyone that is for DRM has not been on the wrong end of it AFTER LEGALLY PURCHASING A GAME. Uhh... Sims 2 anyone? SafeDisc made that installation process damned near impossible for many people who legally bought it (I'm included in that group) I ended up having to copy the contents of each CD to a directory and then install directly from the hard drive. How jacked up is that? This story is even funnier (to me at least) because the Sims 2 SUCKED and I immediately uninstalled it. Whole lot of effort just to play a game... and then to find out that it sucks. If DRM is going to continue to exist, it has to be 100% transparent to the legal owners... we're not the ones that should be hassled over piracy. That said... STEAM gets it right. If that's considered DRM, I'll accept that any day.
 
While I admire your tenacity to argue your point of view; i'm entitled to my point of view and i've already stated reasoning for why I believe that.

If somebody steals a car are they addicted to cars?
Click to expand...

I've never met anyone who stole cars for fun, typically people become thieves to support another aspect of their life whether it is substance abuse or simply a desire for "more bling"

you say pirates do so because they are "detached from reality", whereas I think piracy is considered very normal and is hardly considered a deviat activity.
Click to expand...

I believe anyone that thinks it is okay to steal has loose morals - go ahead and steal all you want; but if you steal, you're a thief and I have no respect for thieves.

I've even known pastors who've downloaded a song or two from a P2P for church services without giving it a second thought.
Click to expand...

Yea, and i've known "deliverers of the faith" who've raped children - why you're attempting to use religious figures as something to support your argument is not something I can understand. Pastors are no "holier" than you and I; they are men, they are /NOT/ divine.

If you were to take a survey of average people ranking where they see piracy as a crime my guess would be that it would fall somewhere around the range of speeding rather than other forms of theft.
Click to expand...

The fact that people think its "okay" to speed is borderline appalling. I don't know if you've noticed lately but PEOPLE **** DIE because of speeding, in fact travelling in excess of posted speed limits is one of the most common contributors to motor vehicle accidents.

The point being it hardly takes an abnormal personality to think downloading digital content is ok.
Click to expand...

Sure, but that doesn't mean I agree with it; and i've already stated my point of view upon modern societies and their addiction to media entertainment.

You can believe what you want, but questioning every word that I post doesn't make your point of view right. If you want to state a point of view go ahead, but don't try to invalidate my point of view through convoluted arguments. If you think i'm going to force my ethics upon anyone you would be sorely mistaken; but i'm pulling your post apart because i'm getting sick of people trying to point at my posts and invalidate my personal ethics and opinion on the subject.
 
As an example to DRM, I agree that the Steam platform is pretty tight on security, but it at least allow you to play offline after you logged in once, and give several advantages like the Steam Community, almost 1-click install and automated updates.
 
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