EFF Shows Evidence That AT&T, Verizon And Sprint Helped NSA With Mass Collection Of Phone Records

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alextheblue

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The most important aspect of this issue is that no one is required to follow an unconstitional law or order, and that includes companies. To say phone companies were simply following orders is pure poppy-cock logic. You are not required to follow an order that is unconstitutional, no matter who issues that order.

You are required to obey the law. If you BELIEVE the law is unconstitutional you can ATTEMPT to fight it and take it to the Courts. That doesn't guarantee an outcome in your favor! Further, if you fight it and fail, you're not only back to square one, but you'll be punished for breaking the law in the first place. Look at various corps that were fined for non-compliance. If they lose their cases, they're on the hook at a minimum for all their legal costs plus fines (and if they're lucky no criminal charges). You only fight when you seriously think you can win, or if the issue is so vital that you have no choice even if you don't think you can stop them (see Microsoft's current fight against the DoJ - I'm sure you'll blame Bush somehow).

In this case obviously the telcos knew this was NOT a fight they could win. At all. Even better, the NSA is spying and you're blaming ATT, VZW, et al. The NSA and their supporters love people like you so much.
 

Aspiring techie

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What's the point in the NSA collecting all our records? To maybe stop 1 minor terrorist attack every 10 years that could be stopped anyway by pouring billions of hard working American's dollars into a national spying program??? Sheesh, I'm glad the top guy can't run for a 3rd term. It's time for a president that actually respects America and the people in it.

Don't blame the phone companies, blame the government. The phone companies have to follow orders or pay the price. Trying to defy the government is like one little guy trying to fend off an army of tanks. Of course the phone companies buckled.
 

toadhammer

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I agree. I'm not sure anyone can clean this up any time soon, or you're "soft on terrorism." Despite the historical proof that the best intelligence comes from the man on the ground, and most of the plots we've heard of were "lone wolf" where signals intelligence does absolutely no good.
 

f-14

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this was already settled by the founding fathers, what we have now is a bunch of harvard and high priced lawyers fast talking their way around their seditious conspiracy, to try to keep from going to prison.
extenuating circumstances such as public emergency extend only to actual public emergencies, such as an actual act of terrorism being knowingly carried out. as per the constitution:
Article. I.
Section. 9.

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

i would go into a long spiel and spellit out however others have already done so much simpler and well worded for shorter answer, i have found this guy covered it short and sweet and since i'm not paid like a lawyer to educate the rest of you, a great many who are not americans, and have no american rights or laws, i feel it's wasted effort on foreigners, and i can lead a horse to water, but i can not make any drink with out breaking the law and hotboxing you for 2 days but mostly because i am not recompensed and linking this site page is easier and faster and hopefully leads many of you to read and generate your own thoughts and opinions and expands a broader horizon of other reasons none of us has thought or added before:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/commbillrights.php

Commentary on the Bill of Rights.

As the United States government continues its war against the nation created in 1779, it has become all too obvious that many Americans, although they will talk about the Bill of Rights, remain unclear as to what it says and what it means. Partly that is due to endless government and corporate media spin, and partly because the language spoken in this nation has changed so much from the time of the writing of the Constitution to the present day, that many people are confused as to what was actually intended. On the occasion of the New York Times publishing an op-ed calling for the abandonment of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I offer some clarification.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This amendment was created by the Founding Fathers as a response to the British practice of random searches of homes, businesses, and persons, again as an attempt to terrorize the colonists into silence and inaction as the Currency Act looted the profit of their labors for the Bank of England. The intention of the Fourth Amendment was to prevent the government from entering your home, place of business, or searching your person simply because they wanted to, or as part of a general campaign of intimidation. Evidence of actual wrong-doing, and not just disagreement with the government, had to be presented by the police to the courts, for a warrant for such invasion to be granted. Although neither the telegraph or telephone existed at the time the Fourth Amendment was ratified, under the 9th Amendment, 4th Amendment protections extend to new technologies. In the present day that includes computers and cell phones, although the government, attempting to justify the NSA spying on all Americans takes the position they do not.
 

slatt01

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johnkra

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Strange is it not that you start with a conclusion and go about providing so called "evidence" to support your conclusion. The Gov't performing an illegal search and seizure followed by the Gov't is not above the law. Do you know what is the info the Gov't is collecting? Why do you not object to ATT, Verizon, sprint collecting this info. Why are you so opposed to the NSA having this information? What have you done illegally, or plan on doing?

 

toadhammer

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I don't know about CL537, but I do object, to both the govt action and the telecom cooperation, forced or unforced. Having worked for some of those companies, I know exactly what is collected. Fortunately, the 4th Amendment objects to this behavior as well, so I don't really need to follow your silly argument about whether I feel guilty for some hidden wrong. I will be generous, however, and give a completely different argument. I object to the billions spent collecting and warehousing the data, which cannot ever be used to convict anyone of a crime in a court of law, and has historically been almost useless for detection or deterrent of any threat.
 

somebodyspecial

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"Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I'm confused. You don't seem to understand what the above means. GET A WARRANT or piss off. PERIOD. They make it extremely CLEAR. It's about what THEY have to do before they can monitor you, and even then, they must be VERY SPECIFIC in what they are after and where they'll look. The whole point of the amendment was to stop govt from abusing it's citizens. PERIOD.

What exactly do you think probable cause is here for searching ME? And the ENTIRE USA population? We are all suspected terrorists today? If I was caught googling for a "make bomb for new york city", then it makes sense to DIRECT ATTENTION to me SPECIFICALLY. But since we ALL did not do something like that, the BLANKET surveillance is ILLEGAL according to our LAWS. And when in court, and asked how many crimes it stopped, the guy couldn't name any...ROFL. You can watch those hearings on youtube...LOL.

I object to govt getting it without a warrant. Telco has to, for future possible case in court. But there is no reason they have to just blatantly hand it over WITHOUT said warrant. Telco is acting no different than all companies collecting ALL email you send/recieve (and calls, simple in IP phone networks, we do it to check abusive call center people). The problem comes when they hand it to the govt without ANY probable cause (likely for kick-backs, mergers passing with ease, etc etc). The company should have said, piss off, get a warrant then we comply for CITIZEN X for which your warrant covers. No judge would pass "tap the whole country despite the laws of this land". His job is to shoot those requests down (blanket ones, without cause), which is exactly why they didn't want to ask a judge...LOL. I also object to spending my tax dollars to monitor 300+ million people who are NOT terrorists. The potential for abuse here is tremendous (see IRS scandal helping get obama elected, feinstein getting tapped etc - not that I like her, just making a point) and we've already seen it many times.
 
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