Question Electrical issues ?

[ragez0r]

hello, name is chris, from the french part of Canada but i moved to the Philippines, please forgive me if my english isnt UK pefect,

im in my 2nd appartment both of which had no ground, however this apartment i have a cable going from the back of the ups (grounding hole) to a metal beam inside my apartment, im told that the beams are all connected and technically go 1.5m into the ground although encased in concrete, so boom i have got ground, i also use a GFCI( never jumped) plug, and a 350 watt ups

system is an amd 7680 (apu)
HAD 16gb of ram i removed 1 stick because computer was on but screen was blank.. im using 8gb fury hyper x ddr3
psu antec 550 watts

monitor chiworld 27 inch lcd

and recently i had to remove 1 stick of ram because as stated above the monitor wasnt coming to life, so my question is, is this really the work of a mentally handicapped guy that tried to do the wiring because i sincerely doubt he was a certified electrician, or is this because of the amount of "static" in the lines or AKA dirty electricity
and also sometimes my monitor just goes blank until i unplug the hdmi plug from the mobo and put it back in, i tried windows key-ctrl-shift-B to reset video drivers, (oh sorry, i use windows 11) and although i see the screen flicker green for a moment.. the problem comes back after 10-15 minutes.. so as of this point i have no choice but to plug in my ups power in into a dc to ac inverter that is connected to 2 batteries that are connected in parallel and charge said batteries with a chinese smart charger that shows on its screen that it is pumping 130 watts or so, any suggestions ? did i overlook something ? and please dont tell me to hire a certified electrician, the moment anyone sees my skin colour the price goes up 10 fold and coming from a socialisat country, i try to keep my spending down to a minimum in order to have funds in case of a health emergency.

please help
aidez moi svp

 

[punkncat]

What happens when you take the UPS out and plug directly to the mains?

 

[helpstar]

which ups are you using? some don't provide a clean sinus ac to the psu and monitor and might trigger a bad behaviour of these.
which exact psu are you using in the pc?

 

[ragez0r]

wanted to ask an additional question, i have a power hungry msi gaming laptop back in my home country

will the same electrical problems be an issue ? it is a MSI GF65 thinUE that takes 130 or 180 watts to power on... of course i will continue to use the UPS.. the brick in the middle of the power cable is the largest ive ever seen nearly the size of a VHS casette

 

[ragez0r]

which ups are you using? some don't provide a clean sinus ac to the psu and monitor and might trigger a bad behaviour of these.
which exact psu are you using in the pc?

refurbished intex all i had to do was order a ups battery.. although it is parallel linked to a second ups battery to give me additional time during a ppower outage

 

[ragez0r]

What happens when you take the UPS out and plug directly to the mains?

nothing it stays powered on, occasionaly it beeps if i accidentally nudge the plug which is around my pretty feet

 

[ragez0r]

worth mentioning that the 2 ups batteries are connected together via alligator clips ???? and i unintentionally touched 1 of the alligator clips and felt a mild buzz, at this moment i feel nothing

 

[punkncat]

You really need a larger UPS in my opinion. I use one the size you have only for my modem and the base receiver for my cameras. I would recommend something larger than your power supply whether the system indicates it is using it or not.

 

[ragez0r]

As of this morning i cannot boot the system at all it says "cannot find operating system" which should be on my main and only ssd as for larger ups, i did check how much the ups pulls from the wall with a wattometer and i never saw it exceed 200 watts so 350 watts inverter or AVR built into the ups should be sufficient, will my msi suffer the same fate if i bring it over here ?

 

[Misgar]

i also use a GFCI( never jumped) plug, and a 350 watt ups

I have a sneaking suspicion you may have a 350VA UPS, which isn't the same thing as a 350W UPS. As such, your 350VA UPS is probably rated at less than 300W and hence may not be sufficient to power a desktop computer and large monitor simultaneously. Although you say the continuous power draw is only 200W, you also have to consider increased power consumption, which typically occurs during the first few minutes as the computer boots up. There may also be instantanous peak power demands which might "swamp" a low output UPS.

Add to that the fact that it probably isn't a "True Sine Wave" UPS, but more likely a cheaper "Stepped Approximation to a Sine Wave" (also known as a "Modified Sine Wave") UPS or worse still, a nasty "Square Wave" UPS and you're just adding to your problems.

ATX computer power supplies prefer a nice clean AC mains waveform (true sine) and may not function reliably when fed with a stepped approximation to a sine wave. Some people insist you must always use a pure sine wave UPS with computer powers supplies (with good reason), but pure sine wave UPS are more expensive than approximation/modified sine wave UPS.

The image below shows a 120V 60Hz mains supply, but if your mains is 240V 50Hz, like mine, just double the voltage scale in your head and substitute 50Hz for 60Hz. The red line shows the output from a stepped approximation UPS. The blue curve shows an ideal pure sine wave, more suitable for an ATX PSU.

Next there's the battery capacity. Many low output UPS come with a very small internal battery, typically rated at 12V DC 5A or 7A. This battery is sufficient to keep the UPS running for a only a few minutes at full rated power, which might give you enough time to close all applications and shut down Windows.

Typical run times for a cheaper UPS running at full power are 2 to 3 minutes. At half power you might get 5 to 10 minutes. At quarter power or less, 20 to 25 minutes.

If your UPS battery is several years old, its capacity will be reduced and you might have less than 1 minute of offline power available, before the battery is exhausted.

At the very least, I'd dump your 350VA? UPS and buy a 600VA or higher unit. It will be more suitable for running a small desktop computer system and provide longer run times. For a more powerful computer or adding a laptop to the equation, consider a 900 or 1000VA UPS.

as of this point i have no choice but to plug in my ups power in into a dc to ac inverter that is connected to 2 batteries ... and a Chinese smart charger

I'm a bit confused as to why you're charging one inverter (in the UPS) from a second inverter (connected to 2 batteries) and then charging this combination from a third device (Chinese smart charger). I'm sure it provides a working solution, but it's hardly the most efficient way of doing things. You'll be losing power (wasted heat) at each stage.

What you're describing is a specific type of (usually very expensive) "Always Online" UPS. In this situation, mains power enters the online UPS and charges the internal batteries. At the same time, power from the same batteries is fed to a DC-to-AC sine wave inverter and used to power your computer system.

The inverter in an always online UPS (as its name implies) runs all the time, so there is no brief switch over time when the mains fails, as happens with cheaper offline UPS, where the inverter only starts when the mains fails. The "For bypass" line in the diagram below allows you to switch over manually to (unprotected) mains and continue powering your system, when you take the UPS offline for servicing, e.g. to replace the batteries.

You may not have a very stable mains supply where you live. Modern ATX PSUs are designed to run on any mains voltage in the range 100V to 240V AC, 50 or 60Hz. It shouldn't matter if the mains is 105V, 155V, 195V, 235V, etc. What's more important is the supply should be "clean" (no spikes or glitches) as opposed to "dirty" with lots of noise and surges created by heavy duty machinery nearby.

If your mains occasionally drops well below 100V (85V or below) or rises above well above 240V (255V and above), you should run your computer from a UPS all the time. I've measured mains voltages as low as 55V AC and as high as 330V AC in hotel rooms when on vacation. When a hotel generator started up at 300V, all the lights in the room exploded. Good thing my laptop PSU wasn't plugged in.

To sum up, there are four types of UPS to consider:

1). Square wave - avoid like the Plague, they may permanently damage your equipment
2). Stepped approximation (modified sine) - may work but could cause problems
3). True sine wave offline - much better choice, but more expensive than stepped
4). True sine always online - best choice, but pricey

 

[ragez0r]

I have a sneaking suspicion you may have a 350VA UPS, which isn't the same thing as a 350W UPS. As such, your 350VA UPS is probably rated at less than 300W and hence may not be sufficient to power a desktop computer and large monitor simultaneously. Although you say the continuous power draw is only 200W, you also have to consider increased power consumption, which typically occurs during the first few minutes as the computer boots up. There may also be instantanous peak power demands which might "swamp" a low output UPS.

Add to that the fact that it probably isn't a "True Sine Wave" UPS, but more likely a cheaper "Stepped Approximation to a Sine Wave" (also known as a "Modified Sine Wave") UPS or worse still, a nasty "Square Wave" UPS and you're just adding to your problems.

ATX computer power supplies prefer a nice clean AC mains waveform (true sine) and may not function reliably when fed with a stepped approximation to a sine wave. Some people insist you must always use a pure sine wave UPS with computer powers supplies (with good reason), but pure sine wave UPS are more expensive than approximation/modified sine wave UPS.

The image below shows a 120V 60Hz mains supply, but if your mains is 240V 50Hz, like mine, just double the voltage scale in your head and substitute 50Hz for 60Hz. The red line shows the output from a stepped approximation UPS. The blue curve shows an ideal pure sine wave, more suitable for an ATX PSU.

Next there's the battery capacity. Many low output UPS come with a very small internal battery, typically rated at 12V DC 5A or 7A. This battery is sufficient to keep the UPS running for a only a few minutes at full rated power, which might give you enough time to close all applications and shut down Windows.

Typical run times for a cheaper UPS running at full power are 2 to 3 minutes. At half power you might get 5 to 10 minutes. At quarter power or less, 20 to 25 minutes.

If your UPS battery is several years old, its capacity will be reduced and you might have less than 1 minute of offline power available, before the battery is exhausted.

At the very least, I'd dump your 350VA? UPS and buy a 600VA or higher unit. It will be more suitable for running a small desktop computer system and provide longer run times. For a more powerful computer or adding a laptop to the equation, consider a 900 or 1000VA UPS.


I'm a bit confused as to why you're charging one inverter (in the UPS) from a second inverter (connected to 2 batteries) and then charging this combination from a third device (Chinese smart charger). I'm sure it provides a working solution, but it's hardly the most efficient way of doing things. You'll be losing power (wasted heat) at each stage.

What you're describing is a specific type of (usually very expensive) "Always Online" UPS. In this situation, mains power enters the online UPS and charges the internal batteries. At the same time, power from the same batteries is fed to a DC-to-AC sine wave inverter and used to power your computer system.

The inverter in an always online UPS (as its name implies) runs all the time, so there is no brief switch over time when the mains fails, as happens with cheaper offline UPS, where the inverter only starts when the mains fails. The "For bypass" line in the diagram below allows you to switch over manually to (unprotected) mains and continue powering your system, when you take the UPS offline for servicing, e.g. to replace the batteries.

You may not have a very stable mains supply where you live. Modern ATX PSUs are designed to run on any mains voltage in the range 100V to 240V AC, 50 or 60Hz. It shouldn't matter if the mains is 105V, 155V, 195V, 235V, etc. What's more important is the supply should be "clean" (no spikes or glitches) as opposed to "dirty" with lots of noise and surges created by heavy duty machinery nearby.

If your mains occasionally drops well below 100V (85V or below) or rises above well above 240V (255V and above), you should run your computer from a UPS all the time. I've measured mains voltages as low as 55V AC and as high as 330V AC in hotel rooms when on vacation. When a hotel generator started up at 300V, all the lights in the room exploded. Good thing my laptop PSU wasn't plugged in.

To sum up, there are four types of UPS to consider:

1). Square wave - avoid like the Plague, they may permanently damage your equipment
2). Stepped approximation (modified sine) - may work but could cause problems
3). True sine wave offline - much better choice, but more expensive than stepped
4). True sine always online - best choice, but pricey

sorry if i wasnt clear, the MAXIMUM i saw from the wattometer was 200 ive only seen it do that once

typically it draws 65 to 140 watts

i charge the battery bank with the smart charger because i want to keep the battery bank full
it is connected to 5 small solar panels but ive never seen the wattge output of all those solar panels exceed 250 watts so i sometimes dual charge the battery bank with solar and the smart charger, yes im aware charging a battery bank from 2 different sources is a no no, but ive consulted with solar power experts on a seperate forum and they say it is fine...



is it possible that the ups maximum wattage is BS ? sorry but after a power bank phone charger advertised 1 billion mah, i lost faith in china ( no offense )

i ordered it online for 20$ ( no ups battery included) ive seen a ups in a computer store easily gfo for 100-120$


are you saying i should cough up the extra funds for that ???

 

[Misgar]

It was clear from your initial post the maximum power you observed was 200W. However, most power meters (Wattmeters) only give an average reading and don't display instantaneous peak readings. Examples of power hungry devices are high-end graphics cards, which demand very short duration current spikes (milli-seconds) that exceed the average figure by a factor of 1.5x or even double.

You don't have one of these power hungry cards (e.g. RTX 4090), so the load placed by your computer and monitor will be much lower, but I was concerned you might not have enough headroom, if your UPS output is less than 300W. Remember I was questioning whether you have a 350VA UPS or a 350W UPS.

Looking at the 'APC Back-UPS CS 350VA' specification, I note the "Rated Power in VA" is 350 and the "kW Rating" is 210W. I know this isn't your UPS and it's 120V not 230V, but it shows there is often a considerable difference between the VA rating and Watt rating, which sometimes catches people out.
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/BK350/apc-backups-cs-350va-120v-6-nema-outlets-4-surge/

In the case of this particular 350VA APC UPS, the 210W rating would not be enough for your system. With only 10W headroom, I'd expect problems with a system like yours. Check the specification of your UPS and see if it's 350VA or 350W.

yes im aware charging a battery bank from 2 different sources is a no no

There shouldn't be a problem charging your batteries from two different sources. I was merely commenting it was not the most efficient way to power the whole system due to losses. Solar charging is a good idea and helps offset the cost of using mains power at other times.

is it possible that the ups maximum wattage is BS ?

No, UPS power ratings are not BS. What you need to get your head around is that AC power is not the same as DC power. If the AC load is not entirely resistive, e.g. an old-fashioned Tungsten light bulb, but contains reactive (inductor) or capacitive (capacitor) components, then the voltaga and current waveforms will not be in phase.

The degree by which the 'V' and 'I' waveforms differ is defined as the Power Factor (PF) of the load (equipment). Good quality ATX PSUs incoporate Power Factor Correction and get close to 'unity' PF, but they're not perfect. As a result, UPS manufacturers give two ratings for their units, one in VA (bigger), the other in W (smaller).

This web site might help to explain the difference, but don't worry if you're not an electronics engineer and it doesn't make sense. Just accept it's one of life's little mysteries.
https://blog.excessups.com/guides/why-are-ups-systems-mostly-rated-in-va-volt-amps/

ive seen a ups in a computer store easily gfo for 100-120$

Unfortunately $100 is the lower end of the price range for a really good sine wave UPS designed for use with computers. I'm using an APC 1500VA UPS similar to this model with a bunch of computers, but my UPS is a 230V device, not 120V and has a few more buttons. At $549 and 1500VA it's total overkill for your system, but it provides an example of how expensive these things are.

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Smart-UPS-1500VA-Battery-SMC1500/dp/B007ZT2KKM/ref=sr_1_6?crid=3KATM0W9YA2QQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.p4DEfgVckGIp_HsREonozUs0EDtoRR1hwISh3EoavOCyJvzE1j50q-CL3fbD_JkB35PLQ7k1z-7wAypTXVz3G7nDrYQFJBtg-yHu6JVpPIG6otbAtF2ArVJGYtzs2cV3UbSEjeMwx1DaDqiAFk7uEsy8kWH4ikZrywp701KYmqDEJbl1htC8l703Xu1tHCzh020xwWTfmbA45l0dssYbk0gcPBJFnhq2UPiY3cTMtcM.Gwm8UvDPVGDTolgLfVbMn2QePDZPhk5BEOk0k7Kn0Mo&dib_tag=se&keywords=apc-ups+1500va&qid=1726679696&sprefix=apc-ups+1500va,aps,203&sr=8-6

are you saying i should cough up the extra funds for that ???

Not necessarily. You might benefit from a new (more powerful) sine wave UPS, if your existing unit is causing problems. However, there's no point wasting money if something else is the reason why your system isn't 100% reliable.

You've already discovered that taking one stick of RAM out of your computer solves one particular problem, but with a computer of that vintage, there may be an underlying fault with the CPU or motherboard.

I spent several months trying to track down a fault on a friend's ancient AMD Phenom 965 system recently. When his original motherboard died, we bought a second hand motherboard on eBay and installed his CPU and RAM. Periodically, he'd get file corruption errors when copying large files (over 5GB). We ran MemTest86, changed the CPU, changed the GPU, PSU, SSD, hard disks, all to no avail. When I finally installed one of my old DDR3 Phenom motherboards, the problem went away.

I recommend testing your whole system at a friend's house, especially if they live a few miles/km away. If the fault(s) go away, you know it's not your equipment, but a dodgy mains supply in your home. Fault finding can be a tedious business and is best performed when you have an infinite supply of spare parts or replacement units, to substitute (one at a time) with your own. Good luck.

 

[ragez0r]

It was clear from your initial post the maximum power you observed was 200W. However, most power meters (Wattmeters) only give an average reading and don't display instantaneous peak readings. Examples of power hungry devices are high-end graphics cards, which demand very short duration current spikes (milli-seconds) that exceed the average figure by a factor of 1.5x or even double.

You don't have one of these power hungry cards (e.g. RTX 4090), so the load placed by your computer and monitor will be much lower, but I was concerned you might not have enough headroom, if your UPS output is less than 300W. Remember I was questioning whether you have a 350VA UPS or a 350W UPS.

Looking at the 'APC Back-UPS CS 350VA' specification, I note the "Rated Power in VA" is 350 and the "kW Rating" is 210W. I know this isn't your UPS and it's 120V not 230V, but it shows there is often a considerable difference between the VA rating and Watt rating, which sometimes catches people out.
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/BK350/apc-backups-cs-350va-120v-6-nema-outlets-4-surge/

In the case of this particular 350VA APC UPS, the 210W rating would not be enough for your system. With only 10W headroom, I'd expect problems with a system like yours. Check the specification of your UPS and see if it's 350VA or 350W.

There shouldn't be a problem charging your batteries from two different sources. I was merely commenting it was not the most efficient way to power the whole system due to losses. Solar charging is a good idea and helps offset the cost of using mains power at other times.



No, UPS power ratings are not BS. What you need to get your head around is that AC power is not the same as DC power. If the AC load is not entirely resistive, e.g. an old-fashioned Tungsten light bulb, but contains reactive (inductor) or capacitive (capacitor) components, then the voltaga and current waveforms will not be in phase.

The degree by which the 'V' and 'I' waveforms differ is defined as the Power Factor (PF) of the load (equipment). Good quality ATX PSUs incoporate Power Factor Correction and get close to 'unity' PF, but they're not perfect. As a result, UPS manufacturers give two ratings for their units, one in VA (bigger), the other in W (smaller).

This web site might help to explain the difference, but don't worry if you're not an electronics engineer and it doesn't make sense. Just accept it's one of life's little mysteries.
https://blog.excessups.com/guides/why-are-ups-systems-mostly-rated-in-va-volt-amps/


Unfortunately $100 is the lower end of the price range for a really good sine wave UPS designed for use with computers. I'm using an APC 1500VA UPS similar to this model with a bunch of computers, but my UPS is a 230V device, not 120V and has a few more buttons. At $549 and 1500VA it's total overkill for your system, but it provides an example of how expensive these things are.

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Smart-UPS-1500VA-Battery-SMC1500/dp/B007ZT2KKM/ref=sr_1_6?crid=3KATM0W9YA2QQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.p4DEfgVckGIp_HsREonozUs0EDtoRR1hwISh3EoavOCyJvzE1j50q-CL3fbD_JkB35PLQ7k1z-7wAypTXVz3G7nDrYQFJBtg-yHu6JVpPIG6otbAtF2ArVJGYtzs2cV3UbSEjeMwx1DaDqiAFk7uEsy8kWH4ikZrywp701KYmqDEJbl1htC8l703Xu1tHCzh020xwWTfmbA45l0dssYbk0gcPBJFnhq2UPiY3cTMtcM.Gwm8UvDPVGDTolgLfVbMn2QePDZPhk5BEOk0k7Kn0Mo&dib_tag=se&keywords=apc-ups+1500va&qid=1726679696&sprefix=apc-ups+1500va,aps,203&sr=8-6


Not necessarily. You might benefit from a new (more powerful) sine wave UPS, if your existing unit is causing problems. However, there's no point wasting money if something else is the reason why your system isn't 100% reliable.

You've already discovered that taking one stick of RAM out of your computer solves one particular problem, but with a computer of that vintage, there may be an underlying fault with the CPU or motherboard.

I spent several months trying to track down a fault on a friend's ancient AMD Phenom 965 system recently. When his original motherboard died, we bought a second hand motherboard on eBay and installed his CPU and RAM. Periodically, he'd get file corruption errors when copying large files (over 5GB). We ran MemTest86, changed the CPU, changed the GPU, PSU, SSD, hard disks, all to no avail. When I finally installed one of my old DDR3 Phenom motherboards, the problem went away.

I recommend testing your whole system at a friend's house, especially if they live a few miles/km away. If the fault(s) go away, you know it's not your equipment, but a dodgy mains supply in your home. Fault finding can be a tedious business and is best performed when you have an infinite supply of spare parts or replacement units, to substitute (one at a time) with your own. Good luck.

thank you, i think

yes the wattmeter shows an average but the numbers on the screen are constantly changing

APU.. means the gpu is incoorperated into the cpu...

this far i have no friends to test this pc on, philippines has over 7000 islands and this island is powered by a geothermal plant 3 hours away, i dont know whgat causes static in the electrical lines, i only know that it is common amongst this country.. so regardless how far away i drive the result will remain the same unless i swim to another island...

but if i begin to use my msi laptop, which cost me umm 1500$cad back in the day.. will the big power brick be able to stop anyt of this badness from seeping into the laptop main components ???

thank you so much for your help so far

 

[Misgar]

Further thoughts:

If your UPS is similar to the 'APC Back-UPS CS 350VA' I mentioned earlier, with a low 210W output (despite the "magic" 350VA figure mentioned in its part number), then it's barely adequate to power a computer system with a peak demand of 200W.

More importantly, your UPS expects to see a relatively clean sine wave input from the AC mains. If the UPS receives a nasty "stepped approximation" waveform from the Chinese DC to AC inverter, the output of the UPS and anything connected to it may suffer.

I suggest conducting a few tests when the mains is good. If you experience occasional problems when running the computer off the Chinese inverter and the UPS at the same time, but no problems running directly from the mains with the UPS and inverter disconnected, then the blame lies with the UPS and/or the inverter.

will the big power brick be able to stop anyt of this badness from seeping into the laptop main components ???

The "badness" on your mains supply is what EMC engineers like myself call "Conducted Emissions", which are generated by devices nearby, e.g. fridge or air conditioner motors switching on/off. If you live near a factory, heavy industrial equipment can "chew holes" in the mains supply (layman's terms). This is all perfectly normal, but can be annoying when it affects your equipment.

Some people recommend the use of a filtered mains extension strip. Cheap (and nasty) strips include little more than an MOV, which clamps high voltage transients. Much more expensive filters use a combination of inductors and capacitors (see Schaffner filter below).

The mains power brick for your laptop is probably rated to work over the entire range 100V to 240V AC 50/60Hz, so provided the mains doesn't drop below 85V or rise above 255V, you should be OK voltage wise.

Personally, I would be cautious about running the laptop PSU (and computer) off your inverter/UPS combination, if they don't both generate pure sine waves. A laptop PSU is similar in design to an ATX PSU, except there's only one DC output rail for the laptop, instead of +12V, +5V, +3.3V, etc., for the computer.

If you really must power the laptop's PSU from the inverter and the laptop requires 130W maximum, that should be well within the capabilities of your UPS. If (and it's a big if) your inverter is only rated at 210W (or 350VA) and your laptop PSU is 180W (peak), it might struggle.

The fewer dodgy devices you have in the chain feeding your computer/monitor/laptop the better.

If possible, do some research on your UPS and inverter, then send us the details.

Is there any possibility of borrowing a good quality 500VA+ sine wave UPS from a local store, to see if it improves matters? Reputable brands include APC.

 

[ragez0r]

PS thinking that my SSD failed due to a corrupt windows 11, worth mentioning that i am using linux now (popOS) been dying to make the switch
i will certainly look into a APC ups... you belive 500 watt avr shoulud be sufficient ?
dont know if i said this but my monitor occasionally flicks off and on due to no signal and the monitor is not connected to the ups.. only the tower, nothing else....

 

[Misgar]

I've just looked up the AMD 7680 and discovered it's probably an A8-7680 FM2 GPU.

I have a bunch of old FM2 systems similar to yours and one of them started giving problems recently. After checking the four sticks of Corsair DDR3 RAM in another computer with MemTest86, I decided it must be the motherboard, which I bought several years ago second hand on eBay.

After buying a replacement mobo and A4-series APU for $7 on eBay (I was lucky) and fixing the server PC, I carried on playing around with the old "faulty" motherboard and installed another CPU. This cured the fault. The motherboard was fine, but the original CPU had gone bad, probably due to static damage caused by the previous owner (Chinese eBay seller).

The moral of this story is that with "vintage" equipment, things can and do eventually go wrong. You make assumptions and change the wrong component(s). You go round in ever decreasing circles buying more and more parts, until you finally fix the problem, or chuck the whole stupid thing in the bin.

Getting back to your problem, the quality of the mains may have nothing/very little to do with the intermittent screen display. So far you've only played around with one computer. I appreciate you may not have any other machines to try, apart from the fancy laptop back in Canada.

Laptop power supply bricks are quite robust when it comes to flaky mains supplies, so I recommend shipping the laptop over to the Philippines and compare it with the desktop PC. You can connect your monitor to the laptop if it has an HDMI output.

If big power glitches/brownouts/powercuts affect the monitor when it's attached to the laptop, then in theory it's a mains problem and not the PC. Admittedly, the laptop has its own battery to hold up the supply which may confuse matters, but it's worth a try.

Somehow or other you need to test/swap all the components in your desktop PC:
1). RAM
2). APU/CPU
3). Motherboard
4). ATX PSU (if it's more than 5 to 7 years old, just replace it)
5). Windows/Linux boot disk (SSD or hard disk)

This is relatively easy if like me, you have a large box full of spare parts (junk), or a good postal system and cheap eBay second hand parts.

As I mentioned, I picked up a micro-ATX FM2 mobo with an A4-series APU for only $7 plus postage. It was nowhere near as good as the full ATX FM2 mobo and AMD 760K high end FM2 CPU, but I used it to swap parts over until I found the fault.

RAM can be tested with MemTest86 or MemTest86+ on a bootable USB stick. All the other parts are best swapped for known good units (difficult, but not impossible).

Alternatively, consider buying a second hand motherboard/CPU/RAM bundle on eBay. I've not had too many probleme buying potential junk systems and suggest you look at Intel 1150 or 1151 or 1155 motherboards, if you want to stick with DDR3 RAM. Socket 939 AMD Phenom systems (955/965) are not quite as fast as an Intel 1150 CPU, e.g. i7-4770K.

I was fortunate enough to be given over 100 DDR3 DIMMs and 50 DDR4 DIMMs pulled from old desktop and server PCs. After weeding out a few duds with MemTest86, I installed 4x4GB DDR3 Kingston or Corsair RAM in all compatible systems and 8x8GB DDR4 DIMMs in an Intel Xeon quad channel server mobo.

There might be thriving second hand market place for old computer equipment on the island where you can pick up parts cheap. You might be able to get some more DDR3 RAM cheap. If they don't work, take them back and be polite to the seller.

I'm not surprised you had problems with Windows 11 on an FM2 system. The highest I go on 10-year old PCs is Windows 10. Linux is a good idea too, if you don't need Windows for specific software. I know you can tweak Windows 11 using Rufus to make it work without Secure Boot, TPM v2.0, etc., but Windows 11 was never intended to run on processors more than10 years old.

 

[ragez0r]

there is a sticker on the top portion of the ups

I've just looked up the AMD 7680 and discovered it's probably an A8-7680 FM2 GPU.

I have a bunch of old FM2 systems similar to yours and one of them started giving problems recently. After checking the four sticks of Corsair DDR3 RAM in another computer with MemTest86, I decided it must be the motherboard, which I bought several years ago second hand on eBay.

After buying a replacement mobo and A4-series APU for $7 on eBay (I was lucky) and fixing the server PC, I carried on playing around with the old "faulty" motherboard and installed another CPU. This cured the fault. The motherboard was fine, but the original CPU had gone bad, probably due to static damage caused by the previous owner (Chinese eBay seller).

The moral of this story is that with "vintage" equipment, things can and do eventually go wrong. You make assumptions and change the wrong component(s). You go round in ever decreasing circles buying more and more parts, until you finally fix the problem, or chuck the whole stupid thing in the bin.

Getting back to your problem, the quality of the mains may have nothing/very little to do with the intermittent screen display. So far you've only played around with one computer. I appreciate you may not have any other machines to try, apart from the fancy laptop back in Canada.

Laptop power supply bricks are quite robust when it comes to flaky mains supplies, so I recommend shipping the laptop over to the Philippines and compare it with the desktop PC. You can connect your monitor to the laptop if it has an HDMI output.

If big power glitches/brownouts/powercuts affect the monitor when it's attached to the laptop, then in theory it's a mains problem and not the PC. Admittedly, the laptop has its own battery to hold up the supply which may confuse matters, but it's worth a try.

Somehow or other you need to test/swap all the components in your desktop PC:
1). RAM
2). APU/CPU
3). Motherboard
4). ATX PSU (if it's more than 5 to 7 years old, just replace it)
5). Windows/Linux boot disk (SSD or hard disk)

This is relatively easy if like me, you have a large box full of spare parts (junk), or a good postal system and cheap eBay second hand parts.

As I mentioned, I picked up a micro-ATX FM2 mobo with an A4-series APU for only $7 plus postage. It was nowhere near as good as the full ATX FM2 mobo and AMD 760K high end FM2 CPU, but I used it to swap parts over until I found the fault.

RAM can be tested with MemTest86 or MemTest86+ on a bootable USB stick. All the other parts are best swapped for known good units (difficult, but not impossible).

Alternatively, consider buying a second hand motherboard/CPU/RAM bundle on eBay. I've not had too many probleme buying potential junk systems and suggest you look at Intel 1150 or 1151 or 1155 motherboards, if you want to stick with DDR3 RAM. Socket 939 AMD Phenom systems (955/965) are not quite as fast as an Intel 1150 CPU, e.g. i7-4770K.

I was fortunate enough to be given over 100 DDR3 DIMMs and 50 DDR4 DIMMs pulled from old desktop and server PCs. After weeding out a few duds with MemTest86, I installed 4x4GB DDR3 Kingston or Corsair RAM in all compatible systems and 8x8GB DDR4 DIMMs in an Intel Xeon quad channel server mobo.

There might be thriving second hand market place for old computer equipment on the island where you can pick up parts cheap. You might be able to get some more DDR3 RAM cheap. If they don't work, take them back and be polite to the seller.

I'm not surprised you had problems with Windows 11 on an FM2 system. The highest I go on 10-year old PCs is Windows 10. Linux is a good idea too, if you don't need Windows for specific software. I know you can tweak Windows 11 using Rufus to make it work without Secure Boot, TPM v2.0, etc., but Windows 11 was never intended to run on processors more than10 years old.

actually the pc ran very smoothly on windows 11, just the malware got tiresome tbh,
the PSU is antec the only psu that i trust, 550 watts, brand new, i used it to replace the Filipinoe one (no offense but the chernobyl odour was worrysome), the orignal ssd died a very very chinese one at that (mctech) replaced with a POSSIBLY authentic Kingston 240gb ssd, had 1 hdd die.. although it did somewhat come back to life partially and immidiately stopped showing up in my pc (on windows 11)...worth mentioning that i did use a chinese avr at first as this isnt my first deployment to this beautiful archipeligo and i suspected that Philippine electricity needs a few more decades to be fully considered clean, while using that avr, i was feeling a light buzz whenever touching the tower casing or the metal end of any usb cable connected to it at this moment the mobo and everything else a computer needs to be happy is without a tower and is placed on a cardboard box or a wooden tabletop.

i am trying to get more info on the ups but seeing as how i cut a square open to place a pc fan to give the ups some sort of cooling, i kind of cut the sticker in half, however i did take a photo of it, will be posting that after my religious coffee when i get up, you have my word

 

[ragez0r]

Further thoughts:

If your UPS is similar to the 'APC Back-UPS CS 350VA' I mentioned earlier, with a low 210W output (despite the "magic" 350VA figure mentioned in its part number), then it's barely adequate to power a computer system with a peak demand of 200W.

More importantly, your UPS expects to see a relatively clean sine wave input from the AC mains. If the UPS receives a nasty "stepped approximation" waveform from the Chinese DC to AC inverter, the output of the UPS and anything connected to it may suffer.

I suggest conducting a few tests when the mains is good. If you experience occasional problems when running the computer off the Chinese inverter and the UPS at the same time, but no problems running directly from the mains with the UPS and inverter disconnected, then the blame lies with the UPS and/or the inverter.


The "badness" on your mains supply is what EMC engineers like myself call "Conducted Emissions", which are generated by devices nearby, e.g. fridge or air conditioner motors switching on/off. If you live near a factory, heavy industrial equipment can "chew holes" in the mains supply (layman's terms). This is all perfectly normal, but can be annoying when it affects your equipment.

Some people recommend the use of a filtered mains extension strip. Cheap (and nasty) strips include little more than an MOV, which clamps high voltage transients. Much more expensive filters use a combination of inductors and capacitors (see Schaffner filter below).

The mains power brick for your laptop is probably rated to work over the entire range 100V to 240V AC 50/60Hz, so provided the mains doesn't drop below 85V or rise above 255V, you should be OK voltage wise.

Personally, I would be cautious about running the laptop PSU (and computer) off your inverter/UPS combination, if they don't both generate pure sine waves. A laptop PSU is similar in design to an ATX PSU, except there's only one DC output rail for the laptop, instead of +12V, +5V, +3.3V, etc., for the computer.

If you really must power the laptop's PSU from the inverter and the laptop requires 130W maximum, that should be well within the capabilities of your UPS. If (and it's a big if) your inverter is only rated at 210W (or 350VA) and your laptop PSU is 180W (peak), it might struggle.

The fewer dodgy devices you have in the chain feeding your computer/monitor/laptop the better.

If possible, do some research on your UPS and inverter, then send us the details.

Is there any possibility of borrowing a good quality 500VA+ sine wave UPS from a local store, to see if it improves matters? Reputable brands include APC.

i am trying to get more info on the ups but seeing as how i cut a square open to place a pc fan to give the ups some sort of cooling, i kind of cut the sticker in half, however i did take a photo of it, will be posting that after my religious coffee when i get up, you have my word

 

[ragez0r]

Best photo i can take under the influence at 0300

 

[ragez0r]

it does kinda read 390 watts, soo all that is left is to determine if that is BS or the brand is crap and we do have intex in Quebec at those stores before they shut down oh yeah best buy and future shop

 

[Misgar]

The label clearly shows 650VA, 390W, so it has more than enough capacity to power your AMD FM2 desktop PC, or your laptop. It might even be capable of running the desktop, monitor and laptop simultaneously.

I have a couple of old 650VA/350W Belkin UPS which I use for unimportant devices and they're still running fine after nearly 15 years. They have gone through multiple battery changes.

What we still don't know is if it the output of your device is square wave, approximation sine wave, or pure sine wave. If it's true sine wave, you've got a potentially good device, provided nothing inside has degraded with time.

i was feeling a light buzz whenever touching the tower casing or the metal end of any usb cable connected to it

I get the same "light buzz" sometimes when brushing the back of my finger across the metal case of a mid-range ($1,000) Huawei laptop. I cannot remember getting the same buzz from a similar mid-range Lenovo Yoga laptop, which also has a metal case, but a different PSU.

The Lenovo came with a "proper" power brick with a 3-pin "clover leaf" connector on one end of the brick. The associated mains lead ends in a plug with 3 metal pins (Line, Neutral, Earth) for connection to an earthed wall outlet. Although the 100W Lenovo PSU is fully enclosed in a plastic case, from a safety aspect, the presence of an earth pin implies the internal metal work is earthed. This means the small leakage currents flowing through any Y-class capacitors is safely connected down to ground.

The Huawei came with a 65W brick with only two metal pins (Line and Neutral). This PSU and two similar bricks (65W Ugreen and 100W Anker) have a 2-pin mains inputs, which means that any internal metalwork will not be earthed. These two pin PSUs all bear the internationally recognised "Double Isolated" symbol (two squares, one inside the other). Despite this double isolated marking, I still get a slight buzz in some situations.

I suspect certain combinations of my 2-pin power bricks and collection of USB-C power cables, together with ungrounded (non-earthed) Y-Class capacitors inside the bricks, may lead to low current, high voltage breakthrough via the USB lead on to the metal case of the Huawei laptop. I don't have all my PSUs and leads with me at the moment, so I cannot perform a detailed test.

In previous work as a design engineer, I've checked components inside power supplies for Safety Critical Components (the parts required to isolate fragile human bodies from the mains). Having used 2MV (Mega Volt) high voltage generators at Uni and 25kV DC powered transmitters at work, I was not sufficiently concerned to return my Huawei laptop on safety grounds when I felt a buzz. I've had my fair share of 240V mains shocks in my youth, when equipment was less well designed. For all I know, the Huawei PSU and USB lead are fine, but my third-party USB leads and Ugreen/Anker PSUs are causing the buzz. The next time it happens I'll break out my multimeter and check.

From a safety aspect, you should NEVER run a metal-cased ATX PSU from a mains supply with no earth. In the event of a fault, the computer metalwork will become live, as will any leads connected to the computer. With no safety earth to trip a breaker or blow a fuse, anyone touching the computer could suffer a fatal shock. In your setup, you can earth the computer's case to the metal framework in the building.

It is not enough to connect the earth to equipment further back up the chain, if the computer itself is not earthed. If necessary, run a separate (substantial) earth lead from a screw on the back of the computer case to the building metalwork. Use at least 1.25mm sq wire, better still 1.5 or 2.5. It needs to be capable of carrying a fault current sufficient to blow a fuse or trip a breaker.

 

[ragez0r]

Since I'm more of a visual person myself, please use this video to have an idea of my predicament, please mind the mess, ac noise and the nosebleeds created by my Celine Dion accent, and the mess of course.

View: https://youtu.be/VzrPsCNCzTw?feature=shared

 

[Misgar]

I enjoyed the video. I thought my workroom was a bit of a mess, but you've put me to shame.

A couple of points.

1). You might experience fewer problems if you install all your components in a cheap second hand computer case. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, but all the internal cables (SATA, USB, Front Panel Audio, DC Power) would be protected from being poked and prodded uneccesarily.

When you fit an ATX PSU in a normal computer case, the chassis of the PSU will be connected via the case to Copper pads around the screw holes on the underside of the motherboard, via metal standoffs.

In addition, small metal tangs on the motherboard backplate make contact with the computer case, helping to ground the ports (HDMI, DVI, VGA, Display Port, USB, Ethernet, etc). This grounding can be beneficial from the RFI/EMC point of view. Similarly, it helps if you ground the metal casting of hard disks to the computer case, keeping all metalwork at the same potential.

Leaving all the parts out in the open and not grounded to each other, is asking for trouble. Tidy things up and find a computer case. The skip round the back of a computer repair shop might be worth visit.

2). Your earth connection using a Bulldog clip looks a bit flimsy. I'd be much happier if the wire was more securely terminated using a nut and bolt. If it was me I'd drill a hole through the metal beam, but I don't suppose you have that option.

Similarly, your crocodile clip connections to the 12V 7A UPS battery are a bit flimsy. You can get proper crimp tags or solder tags to fit the +ve and -ve spade terminals on the battery, making a more secure connection.

The buzzing you experience when touching the battery terminals may be due to high frequency ripple voltage from the charging circuits, or more likely, because the UPS isn't properly earthed. The same applies when you touch metalwork on the motherboard. It's not properly earthed.

Time for my evening meal. Cheers.

 

[ragez0r]

I enjoyed the video. I thought my workroom was a bit of a mess, but you've put me to shame.

A couple of points.

1). You might experience fewer problems if you install all your components in a cheap second hand computer case. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, but all the internal cables (SATA, USB, Front Panel Audio, DC Power) would be protected from being poked and prodded uneccesarily.

When you fit an ATX PSU in a normal computer case, the chassis of the PSU will be connected via the case to Copper pads around the screw holes on the underside of the motherboard, via metal standoffs.

In addition, small metal tangs on the motherboard backplate make contact with the computer case, helping to ground the ports (HDMI, DVI, VGA, Display Port, USB, Ethernet, etc). This grounding can be beneficial from the RFI/EMC point of view. Similarly, it helps if you ground the metal casting of hard disks to the computer case, keeping all metalwork at the same potential.

Leaving all the parts out in the open and not grounded to each other, is asking for trouble. Tidy things up and find a computer case. The skip round the back of a computer repair shop might be worth visit.

2). Your earth connection using a Bulldog clip looks a bit flimsy. I'd be much happier if the wire was more securely terminated using a nut and bolt. If it was me I'd drill a hole through the metal beam, but I don't suppose you have that option.

Similarly, your crocodile clip connections to the 12V 7A UPS battery are a bit flimsy. You can get proper crimp tags or solder tags to fit the +ve and -ve spade terminals on the battery, making a more secure connection.

The buzzing you experience when touching the battery terminals may be due to high frequency ripple voltage from the charging circuits, or more likely, because the UPS isn't properly earthed. The same applies when you touch metalwork on the motherboard. It's not properly earthed.

Time for my evening meal. Cheers.

i can look up a simple open design case but im actually happy that my apu never goes above 50c, i do the same setup back in montreal, i figured why spend anything on a fancy case.. should i add a similar wire on the grounding prong of the ups ? i was kind of under the impression that faulty power all went to the same exit and just found its way there, unless there is a diode somewhere blocking the way, shouldnt all naughty eletricitry snake along the cables and find its way to earth ????

sorry basic DC engineering was taught to me back in elementary school, i dont think i remember much

 

[Misgar]

i can look up a simple open design case but im actually happy that my apu never goes above 50c, i do the same setup back in montreal, i figured why spend anything on a fancy case.. should

i was kind of under the impression that faulty power all went to the same exit

add a similar wire on the grounding prong of the ups ? i was kind of under the impression that faulty power all went to the same exit and just found its way there, unless there is a diode somewhere blocking the way, shouldnt all naughty eletricitry snake along the cables and find its way to earth ????

sorry basic DC engineering was taught to me back in elementary school, i dont think i remember much

Although I understand you prefer to keep things cool, 50C is a long way below the maximum temperature rating of your A8-7680. Looking up the specs for the APU, I discovered the maximum case temperature allowed is 74C. Due to thermal resistance of the heat path from the IHS "the metal lid on top of the APU) and the silicon chip inside , the actual temperature of the APU chip could reach 90C during stress testing with Prime95, from what I've read in other forums.

CPUs and APUs include thermal protection which kicks in when the Silicon chip reaches a critical temperature specified by the manufacturer. The motherboard automatically reduces the Voltage fed to the chip to prevent it from overheating and the system continues to run. At 50C your APU is just cruising gently down the highway at a slow speed. It's nowhere near its limit and could get much hotter without suffering any damage.

As an example of temperature limits, my old AMD Phenom II X4 965 has an upper working limit of 60C, which is very low by today's standards. My new AMD 7950X has a working limit of 95C. More recent Intel CPUs e.g. 13900 have a working limit of 100C (boiling point of water). With adequate cooling, you can run these CPUs at the limit for hours on end, with no ill effects, apart from increased electricity bills. If they hit maximum temperature, they thermally throttle.

If you tidy up your computer and fit it in a metal case, you can always leave the side panel off, if the internal case fans prove inadequate at keeping the APU down to your comfortable limit. Remember though your APU could run quite happily with no ill effects at 70C (or even higher), instead of 50C.

i was kind of under the impression that faulty power all went to the same exit

Unfortunately this is not true. "Faulty power" will find the shortest path down to ground. If that path includes your body, you'll get an electric shock which could be fatal.

Current normally flows into your equipment from the Line terminal on the wall outlet and returns via the Neutral terminal back to the power station.

unless there is a diode somewhere blocking the way

Diodes are not used in AC supplies. In Alternating Current systems, the current (and voltage) reverse 50 or 60 times each second (for 50Hz and 60Hz mains). If you insert a diode into an AC circuit, you block half of each complete cycle and turn the supply into DC.

shouldnt all naughty eletricitry snake along the cables and find its way to earth ????

"Naughty electricity" will not follow the correct route and return along the Neutral wire, back to the local electricity company's sub-station. Instead it will seek the path(s) of lowest resistance down to earth. These paths could include SATA cables, USB leads, HDMI monitor cables, OR YOUR BODY.

As already mentioned, ATX PSUs are designed for use with a good mains earth. People living in countries where house and office wiring "Codes of Practice" do not include a safety earth connection to each wall outlet, are faced with a dilemma. Do they risk their life using the ATX PSU on a 2-pin supply? Most people don't know or don't care, until they drop dead and it's too late.

If you connect an ATX PSU to a 2-pin wall outlet, all metalwork in the computer will be electrically "floating", i.e. not grounded. If a fault develops in the ATX PSU and the AC Line input touches the PSU metalwork, the whole computer becomes live, i.e. sitting at 120V or 230V AC.

If you come into contact with the Line side of the mains supply and a current of more than 20mA flows through your heart, you're probably going to die. At the very least, you'll get a nasty shock. I can tell you from experience, a very short duration 240V AC shock is painful.

The buzzing you feel when touching various metal parts of your computer means you don't have a good safety earth. I don't think your wire up to the metal beam is good enough. For this reason, a laptop with a power brick designed for connection to a 2-pin AC supply will be much, much, safer.

Just to repeat, an ATX PSU connected to a 2-pin supply is not safe, if a serious fault develops inside the PSU. The circuit breaker might not trip, the fuse might not blow, but instead you might get a fatal shock.

As Dirty Harry said, "Do you feel lucky?"

P.S. It might never happen and you could live to 110.

P.P.S.

should i add a similar wire on the grounding prong of the ups ?

I wouldn't bother. It's just compounding the rat's nest of dodgy wiring and could make things even less safe.