News Ethereum Miners Likely Lost Money During the Past Two Years

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i tried to care about them losing money. i really really did. but in the end it seems i feel like the majority here and hope they didn't just lose money but their house, dog, car and even the racoon that has been living in the attic. i hope they lose it all and have nothing to show for it but a bunch of worn out gpu's and nothing they can do with them....
The unfortunate victims are the ones who bought into crypto late after hearing about it in the news and falling for the hype. They might not have ever mined themselves, but just invested a lot of their savings into crypto hoping to make a profit. Or maybe someone invested their money for them without explaining the risks. Anyone who actually cashed out early and turned a profit effectively took the money of those stuck holding onto it in the end.
 
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The unfortunate victims are the ones who bought into crypto late after hearing about it in the news and falling for the hype.
Traditional pump-and-dump scheme: make people believe something entirely fictitious with unclear legal standing derives some sort of intrinsic value from burning 100+TWh/year solving a mathematical puzzle that serves no purpose other than burning compute power to drive the value up from pennies to hundreds or thousands of dollars, unload much if not all of the entirely make-believe currency onto whales, watch the sand castle crumble when people who loaded up late on crypto attempt to cash out.
 
This article is pretty far from accurate. It's entirely predicated on holding all of your mining income, which almost no one does. If you mine, you regularly sell your holdings. You're not a crypto investor, you're looking for your hardware to earn a set daily profit.
They did a 'sell as you go' calculation as well, look about half way down the article.

The real flaw in their approach (in my opinion) is considering the used mining GPUs as being worth nothing when calculating net gain/loss.
 
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The real flaw in their approach (in my opinion) is considering the used mining GPUs as being worth nothing when calculating net gain/loss.
Yep, though it shouldn't take much effort to figure out roughly what these cards sell for on the used market today. Looking at sold listings on eBay, many used 3090s are currently selling for only around $900-$1000 shipped, a big reduction from their $1500 launch MSRP, let alone the much higher prices many were paying for them...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...plete=1&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1500|2500|3000

Deduct seller, transaction and shipping fees, and many of these sellers are likely only netting around $700-$800 for each of these cards, just a fraction of what they originally paid for them.

Also, I like this listing. Who wouldn't want their 3090 Founders Edition move up to a 5-slot cooling solution consisting of a case fan and piles of tiny heat sinks glued to the backplate? It's a beautiful work of engineering...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NVIDIA-GeF.../225041208475?nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true
 
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To be fair, they haven't lost anything unless they cashed out. If anything crypto has proven volatile. It's quite possible Ethereum will rise again. Still doesn't make me feel sorry for them.
 
Yeah and I kept hearing all these years how great crypto was. Where is it now? Just where I thought it would be in the trash

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To be fair the article should come with a huge asterisk in bold - the article is solely based on the premise that you mined for a year or so and never/ever actually sold any of ETH. Obviously, the people who had been cashing in regularly on the way up to ATHs, profited very nicely. Also you should calculate residual value of the card, it's not like that 3090 is e-waste now.
 
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I was never a fan of mining, as somewhere in my heart I knew that this is something which can backfire sooner or later. I did come across people who made a fortune, but then I also came across people went nearly broke. Seeing the people who made fortune pushed me to jump into this niche but got really scared seeing people who were devasted due to ups and downs in the market.
 
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnyBJJI2eqs

My reaction to this.

Environmental Scientist here:

While I agree that something like this, a pointless consumption of energy (mostly non-renewable) is, well, pointless and bad for the environment, your linked article is clickbait and supported by some severely lacking "scientific" documents.

For example, they reference an article from Nature, that claims "Bitcoin emissions alone could push global warming above 2°C ", yet in their own data sets they show in the last ~150yrs global temperatures have risen (on average) .9C, due to ~584GtC emissions. They then go on to state ~49MtC were emitted from coin mining in 2017, that would mean it would take over a thousand years for mining to raise temperatures by 1C, let alone 2C.

They then go on to try and justify this by stating, by the year 2040, bitcoin mining on the scale of emissions we see now will be adopted globally, by most of the population, at the same rate as innovations such as credit cards, dishwashers, and electricity itself. Their entire argument is contingent on 50-95% of the global population owning mining farms, according to their graph analysis.

Im all for supporting environmental policies and more effective and cleaner energy models, but this is just poor journalism and downright bad research.
Do not mistake this for supporting coin mining etc, It is absolutely a waste of resources, but these "news" outlets should at least make some credible points against it first.
Geologist working in Environmental protection here. Unfortunately, global warming is rising exponentially, and 1.5°C, which we are getting closer and closer to, is generally seen at the cutoff point when things cannot be slowed anymore. In this context, every little extra will have an increasingly adverse effect on the already very steep curve. Also, you can see that the most rapid increase started in the past maybe 50 years tops.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-temperature

This report states that since the 1980s, the rise is twice as high as the average of the total 150 years. And it's still going up. Every little thing that tips the scales even further to warming is a horrible thing. And that doesn't even touch on environmental destruction from mining operations connected to these cards, or disposal since it's virtually impossible to recycle everything. I won't make a judgment about the article since I don't currently have the time to read it, but I wouldn't underestimate the impact.

Many people I know, myself included, use their systems for a couple of years. My former system is now over 6 years old with only upgrades like additional drives, but no hardware exchanges at all. So the base is still the same as it was when got it and it's still not fully deprecated yet, now being located at my parent's. Oh, and a new screen since the 7-year old one I used til last year massively started fading and would have had maybe a couple more months to go, tops. My new system will likely last me even longer. And my peripherals are quite old now, too, a 3 years old mouse and a non-mechanical key that has lasted me an amazing 8-9 years at this point and is still very much alive. Headset is also 4 years old now and still going strong. So the point is. Many people can use computer hardware for quite a long time. Meanwhile, mining burns through hardware, especially GPUs, at a rate no private person could ever match. Even those cards that only ran for a year and are sold off as soon as the successor comes out are still worth something to second hand buyers, who then use them for another couple years. I did that myself, got a card from a friend after mine died and use it for 3 more years. Mining cards are essentially glorified trash. They will be thrown out soon by the people who fell for them. They don't even have warranty anymore even if they are only one year old. Far too risky. So in the end, most will be thrown out. Yay...
 
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This article is pretty far from accurate. It's entirely predicated on holding all of your mining income, which almost no one does. If you mine, you regularly sell your holdings. You're not a crypto investor, you're looking for your hardware to earn a set daily profit.

I mined for most of 2021 using my gaming PC. I started with the RTX 2080 Ti I already had, then picked up a $3300 i9-10850k prebuilt with an EVGA RTX 3080 and mined with both cards. I sold the 2080 Ti at the end of the year for what I bought it for ($1200), and stopped mining going into 2022. Even after tax, the mining earnings entirely covered the cost of my new computer.
This comment clearly didn't read past the first table.
 
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They did a 'sell as you go' calculation as well, look about half way down the article.

The real flaw in their approach (in my opinion) is considering the used mining GPUs as being worth nothing when calculating net gain/loss.
I do note that you would still have the hardware, which is why a lot of mining firms are trying to sell off their hardware -- to get out of heavy debt.
The problem with trying to do every potential calculation is that it just starts bloating the article, and there will always be some other piece of information you could add.

I didn't include explicit space rental, PC cost, AC cost, or numerous other factors in the calculations. I only guesstimated at GPU costs, because they were all over the place.
The main point is that if you used an RTX 3090, 3080, 3070, RX 6900 XT, etc. for mining, hoping to get a bunch of coins worth a lot of money, here's what you would end up with:

2.7 ETH (max) from 24/7 mining with a 3090
2.3 ETH from a 3080
1.0-1.2 ETH from a 3070, 3060 Ti, 6900 XT, 6800 XT, or 6800

When people see pictures of mining farms that had hundreds of 3080 cards or whatever, and think "Wow, just imagine all the cryptocurrency they mined!" They're forgetting the cost of all that hardware and ultimately the bottom line. If they mined ETH and sold at the right time, yes, they made money. But these companies got into this for greed, and likely failed for exactly the same reason. "It will go back up, just wait and HODL!"

2.7 ETH total from a 3090 that might have cost $2500 or more when purchased, minus the power and system costs, basically ends up at close to a wash. That's assuming the card still works. Sell it off and you might get $1200 for the GPU now, which means in total:
$2970 from the ETH at current value
-$500 from electricity costs
$1200 from the GPU being sold
Minus other expenses not factored in -- how much time did it take to set up, monitor, etc. the mining equipment? What about AC costs? What about the rest of the PC? Was this a business where there were other employees?

Most miners, even small-time miners, probably spent hours every week of mining ensuring that the systems were up and running and performing as expected. Sure, it was sort of a "hobby" so that was free time, but let me put it this way. If you told me you would pay me $3000 after 20 months, and all I had to do was check on a few things every day that wouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes, that's 150 hours of potential work. $20 per hour might seem like a good income to some people, but it's a lot less than any IT professional capable of running a mining farm would make doing any reasonable job.

Okay, that's not entirely accurate. Let's say a small-time miner had two full rigs of six RTX 3080 GPUs that were originally purchased at $1500 each (being generous). Call the rest of the PC cost $1000. That's $20,000 in hardware expenses at the start. Then they mined 24/7 for 650 days and brought in 24 ETH total (I'm going with a more conservative estimate of ETH mined, due to potential downtime, pool fees, etc.) Power cost at $0.10 per kWh would be around $5000 (higher than the estimate put in the charts, because of extra cooling fans, PSU inefficiency, and the rest of the PC). Today those RTX 3080 cards sold on eBay might get $700 each. The rest of the PC hardware might be worth another $1000. So, $20,000 in initial expenses, $5,000 in power, and you get $26,400 from the ETH and recover $9,400 from selling the hardware. That's $10,800 net gain.

It's certainly something, and then you scale that up to four or eight mining PCs. More than that really isn't feasible without setting up a dedicated warehouse IMO, because eight mining rigs each pulling down 1500W–1800W of power is going to be about the limit for most homes. Monitoring and maintaining eight rigs is also still something that could be done with only a few hours per week on average. But 12,000W–14,400W of power being consumed constantly inside just about any home would make for a very toasty living space, even in the winter. (I know a guy that basically did this in 2017 and he didn't turn on his heater all winter long, and still had a bunch of windows open in the basement with fans blowing in cold air from outside. That worked okay in the cold, but summer was a problem.) You'd have an electricity bill just for the mining rigs of more than $1,000 per month.

Also fun fact: I have been offered consultation jobs multiple times in the past two years to help companies set up mining farms. I turned them down, because I did not want to get involved with what would very likely end up as a losing operation. Been there, done that (in 2014).

Here's another interesting question: If a company bought a bunch of hardware and mined ETH, and was heavily in debt for the hardware, and then declared bankruptcy... would the ETH have to be sold off first? I suspect the heads of companies are syphoning off some of the ETH or BTC or whatever just in case this happens. "Sorry, our endeavor went bankrupt. Here's everything!" [Doesn't mention that 1% of the miners were actually sending ETH to a different wallet.] The more I look into cryptocurrencies, the more I realize the whole operation is entirely shady and questionable. I get why lots of people might value that sort of thing, but its inherently shady nature and immutable transactions means it can never go mainstream.
 
Not to mention that $0.10/kwh is extremely optimistic, at least in the US.

Well, unless you're a business. They apparently get lower rates than residential. I'm looking at current electricity rates, though.

But, if you're not in one of the super-cheap states for electricity, that cuts into profits even further.

As of today, the least expensive electricity per kwh is:
  • Business - Idaho: $0.0792
  • Residential - North Dakota: $0.1003

It just goes up from there. Oh, and you most certainly do NOT want to do this in Hawaii.
 
I'm sure people where saying that same thing to the first people that made gaming hardware, you are just wasting electricity and resources for no reason, we are still here some 70 years later (someone should figure out how much all the consoles/gaming PCs in the world burn per year) , or to the first people that created the internet/data centers, I'm sure google burns through tons of electricity "for nothing" so that you and I can do posts on forums.
I don't know how long it's going to take but one cryptocurrency is going to prevail and it will be part of our future, there is a need and a use for it, it's only crazy now because it's basically the crypto-wars, it's the flip side of having too much competition in a field but just like everything else it will distill down to basically just one.
The internet is useful. Google is useful. Hardware is useful. Meanwhile, Bitcoin is just digital gold, the same as NFTs that are just digital art. Both Bitcoin and NFTs do nothing practical, they are just a store of value like diamonds and gold bars. People think that crypto will change the world, but I haven't seen it come into practical use yet, it's just a speculative bubble that will crash. At least real gold is physical and touchable and can be put to good use in hardware.
 
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NFTs that are just digital art.
Digital art is actually useful. NFTs on the other hand are just links to stuff stored elsewhere which can disappear at a moment's notice when the host or NFT network goes down. For art NFTs, a simple copy-paste can bypass your uniqueness so unless your NFT came with the copyrights or other relevant rights to whatever art the NFT was generated from is, your NFT is pretty close to worthless.
 
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Digital art is actually useful. NFTs on the other hand are just links to stuff stored elsewhere which can disappear at a moment's notice when the host or NFT network goes down. For art NFTs, a simple copy-paste can bypass your uniqueness so unless your NFT came with the copyrights or other relevant rights to whatever art the NFT was generated from is, your NFT is pretty close to worthless.
I think you make a good distinction. Digital art isn't being sold all the time, it's artists drawing art with software. Maybe they put it up as a jpg on an art website and everyone can see it and download it, etc. While NFTs, some middle schooler draws a whale puts it up as an NFT and it's sold for 200 Ethereum. And it's as if you own that art when anyone can still just screenshot it. The only practical use of NFTs that I can see is storing important documents that would otherwise have to be stored physically, but right now they are only being used for storing pictures.
 
The internet is useful. Google is useful. Hardware is useful. Meanwhile, Bitcoin is just digital gold, the same as NFTs that are just digital art. Both Bitcoin and NFTs do nothing practical, they are just a store of value like diamonds and gold bars. People think that crypto will change the world, but I haven't seen it come into practical use yet, it's just a speculative bubble that will crash. At least real gold is physical and touchable and can be put to good use in hardware.
Well you can call me crazy but I wouldn't mind having gold and diamonds even if they are "useless" .
If you are against crypto at least come up with some good arguments, I can at least understand the people that go on about burning electricity and heating up the planet those are valid concerns.
People think that crypto will change the world, but I haven't seen it come into practical use yet, it's just a speculative bubble that will crash.
 
To sum up 80% of the comments here: mining is terrible for the environment and you should feel bad about it BUT the 100 megacorporations -including those who manufacture disposable tech products that are obsolete the second they leave production line- that account for the 70% global greenhouse gasses emissions are definitely not the problem because they operate in a regular free market.

But anyway, it's not like all the spoiled guys living in the luxury of first world countries will be ever able to even imagine what's life in the depths of a country where most people have to make a living with less than $50 a month. Mining was great for a while then the big fat traders realised it was bad because people in third world hellholes that are America's backyard were able to eat 2 times a day, how dare them?! Execute Dump 66.
I'd wish for some users in this thread to live for a month in my country but that'd be a fate worse than death but... guess I'm not that cruel, I believe, at the right time, one should depart quickly and without any suffering from this world.

Who knows, maybe the promise of some place free of pain, sorrow and misery is real, so, there's only hope left.
Though it'd be a real shame if I wake up one day and the devil tells me "so, how was your first session down there?" heh... that guy would fit to be an Ambassador here 😈

Mod Edit - Language
 
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This comment clearly didn't read past the first table.
I read the whole article, and it's a poor piece of journalism. I don't think it's up to your usual standard, and it strikes me as fishing for clicks over being balanced or factually accurate. You spend most of the article on exactly what my previous comment was about, an unrealistic scenario where you hold everything you mine:
In short: if you didn't sell your currency before the crash, you have probably spent more than you earned.
Finally, we've calculated things with no selling of mined coins — the "HODL" mindset, in other words.
Then, when you address how miners typically operate, you treat it as some sort of improbable scenario:
Then we assume selling off all the mined Ethereum on a daily basis — that's probably not realistic
You also calculate the numbers for regularly selling mined coins with only one start date, rather than the two dates used for holding your earnings. And then the bias is compounded, by treating the card as an outright expense, rather than as a depreciating asset. Even using the current low values for used cards, profitability looks very different when the sale value of the card is included. I also take issue with the low calculated earnings for each card in general, but I'll concede that historical mining profitability is difficult to calculate accurately.
 
Then, when you address how miners typically operate, you treat it as some sort of improbable scenario:
The "not realistic" was referring to selling every day, if you read the rest of the sentence you didn't quote. "...that's probably not realistic, but even if you did it once per week the results would be similar to what we're showing here." You're nitpicking in other words.
You also calculate the numbers for regularly selling mined coins with only one start date, rather than the two dates used for holding your earnings. And then the bias is compounded, by treating the card as an outright expense, rather than as a depreciating asset. Even using the current low values for used cards, profitability looks very different when the sale value of the card is included. I also take issue with the low calculated earnings for each card in general, but I'll concede that historical mining profitability is difficult to calculate accurately.
I've just done a video, where I included other details, along with a "best-case" scenario that represents a hypothetical maximum (assuming you don't hold and wait for a new all-time high before selling). I didn't include the selling of the GPU hardware in that either, but I do mention it. The best time to sell your mining GPUs was also six months ago, when the prices were much higher, but miners weren't selling yet because they were still hoping to strike it rich.

Sorry if you didn't like the presentation of details. The point isn't that all miners lost money, but that people who didn't get in from the start -- which is most people, including mining farms that were still trying to buy GPUs and grow their installations as recently as late 2021 -- basically became part of the "recycled ponzi scheme" of cryptocurrency mining yet again. It's a warning that, at some point in the future, we'll probably see another spike in cryptocurrency values. The same people will all be yelling about how great it is and how it will revolutionize the world. And the same other people will be complaining about using too much power for crypto mining. And still yet others will think, "I missed out last time, I gotta get in on Bitcoin/Ethereum/whatever this time!"

I provided information and a retrospective on what happened and very likely a forecast of what will continue to happen. If you really love cryptocurrencies, go buy a bunch right now, when ETH is at $1,000 and BTC is at less than $20,000. Probably in the next ten years, they'll reach new all-time highs and you can pat yourself on the back. Others will lose money by getting in at the wrong time yet again -- miners and speculators both.
 
To sum up 80% of the comments here: mining is terrible for the environment and you should feel bad about it BUT the 100 megacorporations -including those who manufacture <Mod Edit> disposable tech products that are obsolete the second they leave production line- that account for the 70% global greenhouse gasses emissions are definitely not the problem because they operate in a regular free market.

But anyway, it's not like all the spoiled guys living in the luxury of first world countries will be ever able to even imagine what's life in the depths of a country where most people have to make a living with less than $50 a month. Mining was great for a while then the big fat traders realised it was bad because people in third world hellholes that are America's backyard were able to eat 2 times a day, how dare them?! Execute Dump 66.
I'd wish for some users in this thread to live for a month in my country but that'd be a fate worse than death but... guess I'm not that cruel, I believe, at the right time, one should depart quickly and without any suffering from this world.

Who knows, maybe the promise of some place free of pain, sorrow and misery is real, so, there's only hope left.
Though it'd be a real shame if I wake up one day and the devil tells me "so, how was your first session down there?" heh... that guy would fit to be an Ambassador here 😈

So, because we don't complain about a DIFFERENT problem when we're complaining about a specific problem that's addressed in this article, we're hypocrites. Got it.

And, because we don't consider the few people who are living in impoverished countries, who could somehow ONLY manage to get some better standard of living via a way that is very energy-wasting and bad for the environment, cryptomining, makes us horrible people.

I'm not really sure what exact point you're trying to make, as you seem to be ranting about living in a place that's so poor, yet, no other solutions are possible. ONLY cryptomining? I mean, why not go whole hog and start burning tires in an open pit?

How, in such a place, is one able to afford the GPU hardware that allowed for making money in crypto?

This feels like some kind of weird attempt on your part to try to guilt people away from opposing cryptomining, while describing a situation with so little actual detail that it seems exceptionally implausible.
 
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So, because we don't complain about a DIFFERENT problem when we're complaining about a specific problem that's addressed in this article, we're hypocrites. Got it.

And, because we don't consider the few people who are living in impoverished countries, who could somehow ONLY manage to get some better standard of living via a way that is very energy-wasting and bad for the environment, cryptomining, makes us horrible people.

I'm not really sure what exact point you're trying to make, as you seem to be ranting about living in a place that's so poor, yet, no other solutions are possible. ONLY cryptomining? I mean, why not go whole hog and start burning tires in an open pit?

How, in such a place, is one able to afford the GPU hardware that allowed for making money in crypto?

This feels like some kind of weird attempt on your part to try to guilt people away from opposing cryptomining, while describing a situation with so little actual detail that it seems exceptionally implausible.
Bet you money that he isn't even in such a place, just talking hypothetical stuff that he never actually experienced. Because cryptomining didn't start in impoverished third world countries and get "ruined" by the megacorporations discovering it, that's for sure.