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super d spamalot
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- Jun 27, 2012
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If you're an internet user and you don't know that there are different browser options, you don't care if there are or not. Those people just want to get to a website and don't give a damn which browser they use to get there. They're not being harmed or forced into anything. They're just ambivalent.
This would be valid if and ONLY if Microsoft included code to disallow the installation of another browser. It doesn't, so this is basically highway robbery on the part of the EU. When do they plan on forcing department stores to advertise brands sold by their competitors? I mean, it's not fair that users don't get the choice to buy a brand just because the store they're in doesn't offer it.... Right?
Can't say I'm terribly surprised though, the EU never struck me as an organization run by intelligence.
This would be valid if and ONLY if Microsoft included code to disallow the installation of another browser. It doesn't, so this is basically highway robbery on the part of the EU. When do they plan on forcing department stores to advertise brands sold by their competitors? I mean, it's not fair that users don't get the choice to buy a brand just because the store they're in doesn't offer it.... Right?
Can't say I'm terribly surprised though, the EU never struck me as an organization run by intelligence.
cbfelterbush
Distinguished
- Oct 3, 2011
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I love the retort, lol.
So the EU is fishing for money when:
1. Sun in 1998 complained to the EU about Microsoft including IE in the OS.
HAHA. Like its 1998 baby, not 20fuckin12. What were the alternate browser options in 1998, IE was a monopoly browser in 98. Now it is not. Not even close.
The EU is fishing, and flopping.
-CB
So the EU is fishing for money when:
1. Sun in 1998 complained to the EU about Microsoft including IE in the OS.
HAHA. Like its 1998 baby, not 20fuckin12. What were the alternate browser options in 1998, IE was a monopoly browser in 98. Now it is not. Not even close.
The EU is fishing, and flopping.
-CB
[citation][nom]acyuta[/nom]1. EU countries in a very bad shape financially, unemployment at 10%, finances shot.2. European Central Bank pledges to `do what it takes to save the Eurozone'.3. Money, money, money to pay the bills.4. Look outside as no one inside has any money and it is always better to let others' money clean up your mess.5. Voila, let us rob the Americans to pay for our misdeeds and profligacies.6. If we can't make it, then let's ruin others who can.I am not American white, but an Asian Indian (not a Red Indian).[/citation]
Eu countries in bad shape, but who is the cause of this crisis ??
Our central bank is not buying european debt as it is your FED, thus decreasing it's apreciaton ( $ vs € ) , that means € is more expensive so less exporting.
And robing americans ?? Really ?? Dude, you know how many BILLIONS EEUU owe Spain ?? How much money Spain ( and France ) spend funding "EEUU" revolution in it's war against the british ?? Did the americans pay ?? NO
Eu countries in bad shape, but who is the cause of this crisis ??
Our central bank is not buying european debt as it is your FED, thus decreasing it's apreciaton ( $ vs € ) , that means € is more expensive so less exporting.
And robing americans ?? Really ?? Dude, you know how many BILLIONS EEUU owe Spain ?? How much money Spain ( and France ) spend funding "EEUU" revolution in it's war against the british ?? Did the americans pay ?? NO
ethanolson
Distinguished
- Jun 25, 2009
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[citation][nom]Vorador2[/nom]And yet, Microsoft is going to ban other browsers from Windows RT and risk another antitrust investigation. Sometimes i wonder if they learned something from their past actions.[/citation]
No. It's because of the openness of Windows that they are in trouble. If you look at some of the fine details of the case, the closed systems get a pass because they are considered a holistic experience. Even though you could put other browsers into iOS and on a Mac, it's expected that you won't.
Because the history of browsers with Windows is one where 3rd party started it all and it also remains very open, the fact that IE is staring at you all day from your desktop is viewed as a competitive threat.
The EU is wrong in every way. The actual solution for the sake of fairness is a clear label or first time use screen that explains that IE is part of a "minimum capabilities" package that the OS starts the user with. The actual fair consequence of violating that would be a $2 per kit additional tax levy for 6 months.
Keep in mind that Microsoft loses money with IE and Bing and all the web stuff it does. So... since the EU is stuck on this 10% number, I think it should collect 10% of the losses to Microsoft. In other words, EU pays Microsoft.
I'm glad I'm in America, but I'm mad as hell that our current administration wants us to go down the same road of "constructive thinking" as the EU. What a moron.
No. It's because of the openness of Windows that they are in trouble. If you look at some of the fine details of the case, the closed systems get a pass because they are considered a holistic experience. Even though you could put other browsers into iOS and on a Mac, it's expected that you won't.
Because the history of browsers with Windows is one where 3rd party started it all and it also remains very open, the fact that IE is staring at you all day from your desktop is viewed as a competitive threat.
The EU is wrong in every way. The actual solution for the sake of fairness is a clear label or first time use screen that explains that IE is part of a "minimum capabilities" package that the OS starts the user with. The actual fair consequence of violating that would be a $2 per kit additional tax levy for 6 months.
Keep in mind that Microsoft loses money with IE and Bing and all the web stuff it does. So... since the EU is stuck on this 10% number, I think it should collect 10% of the losses to Microsoft. In other words, EU pays Microsoft.
I'm glad I'm in America, but I'm mad as hell that our current administration wants us to go down the same road of "constructive thinking" as the EU. What a moron.
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer
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- Sep 21, 2010
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[citation][nom]ethanolson[/nom]No. It's because of the openness of Windows that they are in trouble. If you look at some of the fine details of the case, the closed systems get a pass because they are considered a holistic experience.[/citation]
Well, Microsoft won't have to worry about this fine for much longer, then...
Well, Microsoft won't have to worry about this fine for much longer, then...
wemakeourfuture
Distinguished
- Dec 20, 2011
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[citation][nom]ethanolson[/nom]No. It's because of the openness of Windows that they are in trouble. If you look at some of the fine details of the case, the closed systems get a pass because they are considered a holistic experience. Even though you could put other browsers into iOS and on a Mac, it's expected that you won't.Because the history of browsers with Windows is one where 3rd party started it all and it also remains very open, the fact that IE is staring at you all day from your desktop is viewed as a competitive threat.The EU is wrong in every way. The actual solution for the sake of fairness is a clear label or first time use screen that explains that IE is part of a "minimum capabilities" package that the OS starts the user with. The actual fair consequence of violating that would be a $2 per kit additional tax levy for 6 months.Keep in mind that Microsoft loses money with IE and Bing and all the web stuff it does. So... since the EU is stuck on this 10% number, I think it should collect 10% of the losses to Microsoft. In other words, EU pays Microsoft.I'm glad I'm in America, but I'm mad as hell that our current administration wants us to go down the same road of "constructive thinking" as the EU. What a moron.[/citation]
You do realize that Microsoft had anti-trust case before the courts from the 1990's to mid 2000's, that spanned Clinton and Bush administrations. Parts of the anti-trust case was around browsers.
EU if anything is following the lead of the US on the initial starting of US Corporation(s) (Sun Microsystems at the time) that complained about Microsoft's business practice.
You Sir, require more reading and knowledge on the subject.
The only question I have is, "who really is the 'moron'?"
You do realize that Microsoft had anti-trust case before the courts from the 1990's to mid 2000's, that spanned Clinton and Bush administrations. Parts of the anti-trust case was around browsers.
EU if anything is following the lead of the US on the initial starting of US Corporation(s) (Sun Microsystems at the time) that complained about Microsoft's business practice.
You Sir, require more reading and knowledge on the subject.
The only question I have is, "who really is the 'moron'?"
wemakeourfuture
Distinguished
- Dec 20, 2011
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[citation][nom]cbfelterbush[/nom]I love the retort, lol. So the EU is fishing for money when:1. Sun in 1998 complained to the EU about Microsoft including IE in the OS.HAHA. Like its 1998 baby, not 20fuckin12. What were the alternate browser options in 1998, IE was a monopoly browser in 98. Now it is not. Not even close. The EU is fishing, and flopping. -CB[/citation]
The point is the EU started this process back in 1998 by Sun. Since then there has been a series of anti-trust cases against Microsoft some including browser and some not. This is not a cash grab, the EU is applying there rules and regulations if a company does not comply they get fined. That's a pretty standard process.
If a company is found to illegally dumping toxic materials in the environment there are asked to make the necessary changes including paying fines. If they refuse and continue their actions its not a surprise that the fine could be larger.
Microsoft has been found to be anti-competitive, it has not made the required changes it is being fined. This process of the browser issue started many, many years before 2012.
To me it seems this article is the first time you have even heard about this case.
The point is the EU started this process back in 1998 by Sun. Since then there has been a series of anti-trust cases against Microsoft some including browser and some not. This is not a cash grab, the EU is applying there rules and regulations if a company does not comply they get fined. That's a pretty standard process.
If a company is found to illegally dumping toxic materials in the environment there are asked to make the necessary changes including paying fines. If they refuse and continue their actions its not a surprise that the fine could be larger.
Microsoft has been found to be anti-competitive, it has not made the required changes it is being fined. This process of the browser issue started many, many years before 2012.
To me it seems this article is the first time you have even heard about this case.
wemakeourfuture
Distinguished
- Dec 20, 2011
- 601
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[citation][nom]Pherule[/nom]Who says Microsoft has to pay the EU anything? It's Microsoft's operating system, they get to choose what goes in it.I dislike IE, but really, if MS gives in and pays the EU, I will be disappointed.[/citation]
Just like Facebook cannot cross Europe's privacy rules, Microsoft cannot cross Europe's competition rules.
Just because you make a product does not mean you don't follow the rules.
Should a toy company who makes a product that is found to violate child safety rules continue to make the product since "it's their product"?
Governments have a duty to the public and markets to enforce regulations and rules that produce safe products for people and provide a competitive market place for firms to compete in.
Just like Facebook cannot cross Europe's privacy rules, Microsoft cannot cross Europe's competition rules.
Just because you make a product does not mean you don't follow the rules.
Should a toy company who makes a product that is found to violate child safety rules continue to make the product since "it's their product"?
Governments have a duty to the public and markets to enforce regulations and rules that produce safe products for people and provide a competitive market place for firms to compete in.
svdb
Distinguished
- Apr 24, 2009
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[citation][nom]acyuta[/nom]...5. Voila, let us rob the Americans to pay for our misdeeds and profligacies.6. If we can't make it, then let's ruin others who can.I am not American white, but an Asian Indian (not a Red Indian).[/citation]Which proves ignorance has no color nor race.
Recent research proves that about 60% to 70+% of people (subconsciously) vote for candidates for government office based on their physical appearance alone.
Rather than draw the obvious conclusions about the meaning of even giving users a choice for a browser... how about having the EU go a step further and force Microsoft to show a screen-shot of each browser in use and then let human nature take over.
Nah, instead, how about just suspend sales/support of Window's to the EU for a while. In California, a locality tried to force a railroad line to convert its locomotives to be compliant with a recently passed Green ordinance. The owner said that he would rather close his railroad to their location. They complained that doing so would cost lots of local jobs. The owner replied: "Think about that". Talk about stones of steel.
Rather than draw the obvious conclusions about the meaning of even giving users a choice for a browser... how about having the EU go a step further and force Microsoft to show a screen-shot of each browser in use and then let human nature take over.
Nah, instead, how about just suspend sales/support of Window's to the EU for a while. In California, a locality tried to force a railroad line to convert its locomotives to be compliant with a recently passed Green ordinance. The owner said that he would rather close his railroad to their location. They complained that doing so would cost lots of local jobs. The owner replied: "Think about that". Talk about stones of steel.
[citation][nom]Vorador2[/nom]And yet, Microsoft is going to ban other browsers from Windows RT and risk another antitrust investigation. Sometimes i wonder if they learned something from their past actions.[/citation]
WindowsRT is specifically for tablets. MS currently has the smallest share of the tablet market. IOS on the other hand, holds the majority market share and consumers are forced to use whatever browser Apple approves. Seems to me that the EU should be looking at Apple for violating the same "regulations" that they claims to be enforcing against MS....
Hell, MS actually did consumers a favor by including IE in Windows. Netscape originally charged for their browser with the only free alternative being the Mosaic browser. So, you had a choice to either PAY for Netscape Navigator or download the Mosaic browser....unless your ISP provided you with a copy of either in their own software.
Until the EU goes after Apple for doing the exact same thing with IOS (the dominant tablet platform)....this is nothing but the EU trying to use MS to cover their debt.
The 1998 case against MS was Sun Micro crying about MS including Media Player and IE....that's why there's "Windows N" which comes without Media Player.
WindowsRT is specifically for tablets. MS currently has the smallest share of the tablet market. IOS on the other hand, holds the majority market share and consumers are forced to use whatever browser Apple approves. Seems to me that the EU should be looking at Apple for violating the same "regulations" that they claims to be enforcing against MS....
Hell, MS actually did consumers a favor by including IE in Windows. Netscape originally charged for their browser with the only free alternative being the Mosaic browser. So, you had a choice to either PAY for Netscape Navigator or download the Mosaic browser....unless your ISP provided you with a copy of either in their own software.
Until the EU goes after Apple for doing the exact same thing with IOS (the dominant tablet platform)....this is nothing but the EU trying to use MS to cover their debt.
The 1998 case against MS was Sun Micro crying about MS including Media Player and IE....that's why there's "Windows N" which comes without Media Player.
[citation][nom]wemakeourfuture[/nom]The point is the EU started this process back in 1998 by Sun. Since then there has been a series of anti-trust cases against Microsoft some including browser and some not. This is not a cash grab, the EU is applying there rules and regulations if a company does not comply they get fined. That's a pretty standard process.If a company is found to illegally dumping toxic materials in the environment there are asked to make the necessary changes including paying fines. If they refuse and continue their actions its not a surprise that the fine could be larger.Microsoft has been found to be anti-competitive, it has not made the required changes it is being fined. This process of the browser issue started many, many years before 2012.To me it seems this article is the first time you have even heard about this case.[/citation]
The EU doesn't appear to be interest in applying those "regulations" equally....
[citation][nom]wemakeourfuture[/nom]Just like Facebook cannot cross Europe's privacy rules, Microsoft cannot cross Europe's competition rules.Just because you make a product does not mean you don't follow the rules.Should a toy company who makes a product that is found to violate child safety rules continue to make the product since "it's their product"?Governments have a duty to the public and markets to enforce regulations and rules that produce safe products for people and provide a competitive market place for firms to compete in.[/citation]
Only Apple gets to openly violate the EU's "competition regulations" with no consequences....
The EU doesn't appear to be interest in applying those "regulations" equally....
[citation][nom]wemakeourfuture[/nom]Just like Facebook cannot cross Europe's privacy rules, Microsoft cannot cross Europe's competition rules.Just because you make a product does not mean you don't follow the rules.Should a toy company who makes a product that is found to violate child safety rules continue to make the product since "it's their product"?Governments have a duty to the public and markets to enforce regulations and rules that produce safe products for people and provide a competitive market place for firms to compete in.[/citation]
Only Apple gets to openly violate the EU's "competition regulations" with no consequences....
[citation][nom]it_pays2think[/nom]mustangs: Ford didnt forceably create a monopoly on cars with a bunch of back-room deals either, now did they? Microsoft has gone out of their way to ensure that the AVERAGE CONSUMER never has a choice in what OS is on their PC, unless they're willing to pay 3x as much for an Apple product.Regulation is a good thing, if you don't like having a government setting a minimum standard for quality and ethics in business(especially from companies like MS with a long history of illegal and unethical behaviour), then I suggest you move to somewhere like Somalia. Then again, you may be a de-regulation Repub, who thinks that bringing back child-labour is somehow going to reduce the unemployment rate. No, you'll just be competing for the same number of jobs with cheap labour from your own kids, as well as China, India and Mexico.[/citation]
Despite what some would have you believe MS had control of the market well before they were huge and capable of backroom deals. MS has never had a monopoly but I can understand how that word might be confusing. I mean it only has MONO as part of the word but...
This isn't about the OS, it's about the browser and it is oh so very easy to install other browsers. You don't need any real working knowledge and just follow a series of clicks. If this particular issue that I was commenting on was about MS buying and shutting down a competitor or something along that line then I could see your point. But it isn't. It's about having other browsers be required on the PC. Why stop there? Why not require MS to include other companies office suites, video players, calculators other versions of paint or snipping tools? Oh wait, I can do that myself in less than a minute.
I love your random jump to child labor. It was cute and shows your irreverent nature.
Despite what some would have you believe MS had control of the market well before they were huge and capable of backroom deals. MS has never had a monopoly but I can understand how that word might be confusing. I mean it only has MONO as part of the word but...
This isn't about the OS, it's about the browser and it is oh so very easy to install other browsers. You don't need any real working knowledge and just follow a series of clicks. If this particular issue that I was commenting on was about MS buying and shutting down a competitor or something along that line then I could see your point. But it isn't. It's about having other browsers be required on the PC. Why stop there? Why not require MS to include other companies office suites, video players, calculators other versions of paint or snipping tools? Oh wait, I can do that myself in less than a minute.
I love your random jump to child labor. It was cute and shows your irreverent nature.
wemakeourfuture
Distinguished
- Dec 20, 2011
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[citation][nom]mstngs351[/nom]Despite what some would have you believe MS had control of the market well before they were huge and capable of backroom deals. MS has never had a monopoly but I can understand how that word might be confusing. I mean it only has MONO as part of the word but... This isn't about the OS, it's about the browser and it is oh so very easy to install other browsers. You don't need any real working knowledge and just follow a series of clicks. If this particular issue that I was commenting on was about MS buying and shutting down a competitor or something along that line then I could see your point. But it isn't. It's about having other browsers be required on the PC. Why stop there? Why not require MS to include other companies office suites, video players, calculators other versions of paint or snipping tools? Oh wait, I can do that myself in less than a minute. I love your random jump to child labor. It was cute and shows your irreverent nature.[/citation]
There was a very big anti-trust against Microsoft and media players, so not sure why you're mentioning that as if that wasn't the case, oh wait, this must be the first article you've ever read about the anti-trust legal issues with Microsoft. Considering this is spanning 3 decads, 90's, 00's, 10's you're information is rather limited.
There was a very big anti-trust against Microsoft and media players, so not sure why you're mentioning that as if that wasn't the case, oh wait, this must be the first article you've ever read about the anti-trust legal issues with Microsoft. Considering this is spanning 3 decads, 90's, 00's, 10's you're information is rather limited.
if i was microsoft, i would either pull out fully from the eu, not sell to them, but let 3rd parties sell to them if they really want to.
or
i would force you to install your os yourself. every file, every single file that gets written would have a popup, telling you what it does, and you have to read everything, EVERY LITTLE BIT, before you could go on, than take a quiz after each file to make sure you read it. and each file you could say yes or no to its installation, whether you os runs or not doesn't matter, it was all your choice.
they want 10% of your proffits, i would hike the os price by 20% and add the above purely out of spite.
or
i would force you to install your os yourself. every file, every single file that gets written would have a popup, telling you what it does, and you have to read everything, EVERY LITTLE BIT, before you could go on, than take a quiz after each file to make sure you read it. and each file you could say yes or no to its installation, whether you os runs or not doesn't matter, it was all your choice.
they want 10% of your proffits, i would hike the os price by 20% and add the above purely out of spite.
[citation][nom]Dangi[/nom]Eu countries in bad shape, but who is the cause of this crisis ??Our central bank is not buying european debt as it is your FED, thus decreasing it's apreciaton ( $ vs € ) , that means € is more expensive so less exporting.And robing americans ?? Really ?? Dude, you know how many BILLIONS EEUU owe Spain ?? How much money Spain ( and France ) spend funding "EEUU" revolution in it's war against the british ?? Did the americans pay ?? NO[/citation]
Again as an Asian Indian, the Americans (and Russians) paid in huge numbers and won you the war against Hitler, after the British and French had appeased Hitler to death, and their citizens had paid for that. The bureaucrats and the people in power never pay.
Pls. remember your history. EU powers to be (and most) always make others pay for their misdeeds.
Again as an Asian Indian, the Americans (and Russians) paid in huge numbers and won you the war against Hitler, after the British and French had appeased Hitler to death, and their citizens had paid for that. The bureaucrats and the people in power never pay.
Pls. remember your history. EU powers to be (and most) always make others pay for their misdeeds.
Vladislaus
Distinguished
- Jul 29, 2010
- 1,290
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[citation][nom]nocteratus[/nom]It's not Microsoft fault if the European users don't know how to work with their computers and install another browser.[/citation]
Sorry but statistics disagree with you. In America IE has almost twice the market share than than their next best positioned competitor, Chrome. In Europe, the market share of both Chrome and Firefox is bigger than IE.
Sorry but statistics disagree with you. In America IE has almost twice the market share than than their next best positioned competitor, Chrome. In Europe, the market share of both Chrome and Firefox is bigger than IE.
alextheblue
Distinguished
- Apr 3, 2001
- 3,078
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[citation][nom]Pherule[/nom]Who says Microsoft has to pay the EU anything? It's Microsoft's operating system, they get to choose what goes in it.I dislike IE, but really, if MS gives in and pays the EU, I will be disappointed.[/citation]They've already fought it. They're fighting it again. If they lose and get fined, they have to pay it, or else they get fined EVEN MORE and then they have to pay that too. There is enforcement behind those fines, you know. There's nothing they can do unless they want all MS products completely banned from the EU forever.
alextheblue
Distinguished
- Apr 3, 2001
- 3,078
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- 20,970
[citation][nom]mr_tuel[/nom]If I was Microsoft, I wouldn't include ANY browser in an EU OS. Let them download their choice from another PC or mail-order it. That strategy is certainly not anti-competitive....[/citation]Actually they tried to implement this change some years ago. MS was all prepped internally to deliver a browser-free Windows and offer IE for free on CD and via FTP download (doesn't require a browser). The European Commission decided that this didn't go far enough to rectify the situation and pushed them into the Browser Ballot instead.
[citation][nom]it_pays2think[/nom]Regulation is a good thing, if you don't like having a government setting a minimum standard for quality and ethics in business(especially from companies like MS with a long history of illegal and unethical behaviour), then I suggest you move to somewhere like Somalia. Then again, you may be a de-regulation Repub, who thinks that bringing back child-labour is somehow going to reduce the unemployment rate. No, you'll just be competing for the same number of jobs with cheap labour from your own kids, as well as China, India and Mexico.[/citation]SOME regulation is good. Some is downright awful. If you think regulation is always good, you're a complete fool. In this particular case, it isn't even about what is "right" or "wrong". It's about money, and to some extent control. Plus MS is an easy target. Microsoft can't afford to lose the entirety of the EU market, so they pay the EU Browser Tax yet again and move on.
Also, you think _Government_ should be the ultimate arbiter of ethics? Give me a break, sheep. Governments are run by filthy, lying, corrupt politicians and officials. They're looking out for number one, and the ultimate ethical rule is don't get caught.
[citation][nom]it_pays2think[/nom]Regulation is a good thing, if you don't like having a government setting a minimum standard for quality and ethics in business(especially from companies like MS with a long history of illegal and unethical behaviour), then I suggest you move to somewhere like Somalia. Then again, you may be a de-regulation Repub, who thinks that bringing back child-labour is somehow going to reduce the unemployment rate. No, you'll just be competing for the same number of jobs with cheap labour from your own kids, as well as China, India and Mexico.[/citation]SOME regulation is good. Some is downright awful. If you think regulation is always good, you're a complete fool. In this particular case, it isn't even about what is "right" or "wrong". It's about money, and to some extent control. Plus MS is an easy target. Microsoft can't afford to lose the entirety of the EU market, so they pay the EU Browser Tax yet again and move on.
Also, you think _Government_ should be the ultimate arbiter of ethics? Give me a break, sheep. Governments are run by filthy, lying, corrupt politicians and officials. They're looking out for number one, and the ultimate ethical rule is don't get caught.
jkflipflop98
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- Feb 3, 2006
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chewy1963
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- May 9, 2012
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[citation][nom]cutebeans[/nom]Apparently, this was more important than fixing their economy lol![/citation]
In my view, this is the EU's approach to fixing their economy. A nice 7 billion cash injection. This has nothing to do with justice and alot more to do with increasing the EU's revenue!
In my view, this is the EU's approach to fixing their economy. A nice 7 billion cash injection. This has nothing to do with justice and alot more to do with increasing the EU's revenue!
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